Depp/Burton DARK SHADOWS Is In Release!!

[Gerard]

I don't understand it either, Uncle Roger.  What do these fanatic "fans" want?  A line-by-line recreation of the OS?  As much as we love it, it was far from perfect.  The comedic aspects of '12 regarding Barnabas trying to understand and deal with the culture and technology of 200 years was not only funny but brilliant.  So much better than the OS, '91 or '04 versions that had him fully understand it all within 48 hours so he could slip into society (how utterly preposterous; what did he do? - have Willy give him a crash course in everything from history to how zippers work?).  And '12 paid greater homage to the OS story than '91 or '04.  Sorry, but Victoria was not the reincarnation of Josette - Maggie was.  Both '91 and '04 committed heresy.  In '12, Maggie Evans remained Josette's reincarnation; she made up the name of "Victoria Winters." 

Gerard

[Uncle Roger]

They get a little flustered when you try to pin them down as to what they are actually referring to. The Leviathans? Sky Rumson? Amanda Harris? Hallie Stokes? Those are all parts of the original series, with somewhat less than ardent fan followings. To paraphrase Simone Signoret: Nostalgia isn't What it used to be.

[michael c]

I don't understand it either, Uncle Roger.  What do these fanatic "fans" want?  A line-by-line recreation of the OS?  As much as we love it, it was far from perfect.  The comedic aspects of '12 regarding Barnabas trying to understand and deal with the culture and technology of 200 years was not only funny but brilliant.  So much better than the OS, '91 or '04 versions that had him fully understand it all within 48 hours so he could slip into society (how utterly preposterous; what did he do? - have Willy give him a crash course in everything from history to how zippers work?).  And '12 paid greater homage to the OS story than '91 or '04.  Sorry, but Victoria was not the reincarnation of Josette - Maggie was.  Both '91 and '04 committed heresy.  In '12, Maggie Evans remained Josette's reincarnation; she made up the name of "Victoria Winters."

if I may you seem to be something of a "one issue voter" in terms of the movie...


everything else being what it was in terms of tone and tempo, if Maggie had not been part of the story, or had been a 'supporting' player (like she was in 91), and had NOT been the "reincarnation" of Josette, but Victoria had (as she was in other iterations), would you have actually loved the movie so much? or even liked it???

at any rate most "fans" don't seem to care who "gets" to be Josette. they still despise the movie.

[Gerard]

Good question, Michael C.  What I was trying to say was how so many fanatics ("fans") of the OS hated the movie was that it was not "DS" according to the OS.  It was more of the OS than the other reincarnations.  Burton stuck to the original and paid homage to it.  Dan Curtis couldn't even do that with his '91 version.  Concerning Maggie vs. Victoria as the reincarnation of Josette, that didn't even exist in the OS; Barnabas decide to go after Vicki only because his attempt with Maggie (who was the real thing) failed and Vicki was sloppy seconds.  Vicki being Josette didn't even vaguely occur to anyone in fandom until Curtis decided to cut corners and have it happen in '91.  What was he thinking?  When I saw the '12 version in the theater, DS fans all around resounded, in the scene on the train, when the young woman started to say:  "I'm Maggie Eva..."  They all said in glee, including me,  "Oh, my god, she is Maggie Evans!"  Fans did care.  They knew.  They remembered.  So did Burton and Depp.

Gerard

[michael c]

that really wasn't my question...


is that the only reason you liked the movie???


and "glee"?  that's a bit thick.

[Gerard]

It was one of the reasons, Michael C.  I thought it was fantastic to meld the characters of Maggie and Vicki.  The back-story of Maggie being haunted by the ghost of Josette (who was reincarnated into her) was, to me, brilliant.  I also loved setting it back to the early 70's, when the OS ended.  It was fun and nostalgic.  And as I stated before, Barnabas dealing (with a great deal of fumbling) with 20th century culture and technology was far more realistic than all other previous adaptations, from the OS to '91 and '04.  You've been out of the grave for - what? - two days (or nights) and you can completely comprehend things like fashion, cars and the latest TV hit?  Angelique hanging around, "reinventing" herself as her own descendants, was also imaginative.  The movie kept the love/hate/lust relationship between the two.  Was it a perfect film?  Heavens, no.  But, again to me, it was a wonderful tribute to the OS, much better than the other two remakes.  I could nit-pick the failures of them (and I have).  I can nit-pick the failures of the film.  We can all nit-pick the failures of the OS (and we all have).  But I loved the movie.  I'm grateful Depp/Burton were so appreciative of this classic series to place it on the big screen.  They did their homework.  Unfortunately, Curtis - whom we all appreciate for his work - didn't.  Trying to turn the OS into some updated Count Yorga would've been a disaster.

Gerard

[Patti Feinberg]

***snort** Ha! Count Yorga!!


I really didn't know 'fans' of OS hated/disliked the movie.

From what I could tell, friends/family of fans went with 'fans'; they 'didn't get it' (hello Vicki)....

I think Burton and Grahame (sorry, can't remember), left doors as I previously mentioned if not opened, the at least ajar, for additional story arcs. Do I think Burton or Depp or all the other INCREDIBLY FAMOUS actors will be involved, doubtful.

But, when DS actors are filming....there's always new Collins' and/or Collins wanna bes.

If, there were to be another DS (in league with the '12), I would really like to see:

 Michelle Pfifer
Laura, the 'real Laura' Perhaps Carolyn could get together with Burke? Joe? (can't remember) where trying to piece together 'Laura 1, 2, 3, et al, that was a good story arc.
Thayer David's 'Professorial' intellect'
Not sure about Willie....
Liz will stick David in public school (she has to, because of the lack of housing accomidations).
Maybe, just maybe one short shot of Dr. Hoffman

Maybe a new character....someone to make goo-goo eyes at Elizabeth.

Patti

[MagnusTrask]

Fans wanted a serious movie.  Tim Burton was not about to change his style for fandom.  He and Depp got it in their heads to make DS into a typically twisted Tim Burton movie.  It was always going to be either that, or nothing.  So fans should ask, would I rather have had nothing instead?

It wasn't Dark Shadows.  It was a sort of parody and fan tribute TO Dark Shadows.  It twisted DS inside out and did winking jokes only fans would get.  By twisting its reality inside out, it honored DS, since the series kept doing that, by swapping universes and time travelling, recasting the same actors into (sometimes) very different parts.  Think of it as yet one more DS alternate reality.

[michael c]

it was what it was...

it wasn't what most fans wanted, and in retrospect perhaps it was a misfire, but it's what happened.


the continued virulence of the hostility directed at it, and even at it's individual participants, is what's mystifying. on several of the FB boards simply put up an image from it and literally within seconds the floodgates are opened. expect to be fully bombarded with biblical language like "travesty" and "abomination" and continued calls for burton and depp's heads on a pike.

there's actually one page dedicated to the film's poor financial performance and the dvd's continued spiral into the 99 cent bins.

[Uncle Roger]

It has certainly polarized fans like nothing else short of the Leviathans.

But it was never going to be something that was directed at hardcore fans of the original. The fan base is not large enough or focused enough to support it. If it were, one of the proposed reunion MOTW's with the original cast might actually have gotten made.

Everyone is certainly entitled to their opinion about the movie but I do take exceptionally to it being called a tragedy. The shooting of defenseless children at Sandy Hook was a tragedy. An updated version of a 1960's daytime show? Not so much.

[michael c]

indeed the hyperbole used in association with it is almost comical.



from what I understand it hasn't even been referenced (never mind screened) at recent festival or "cruise" type fan activities. the subject is verboten...

but a woman who played a nurse in a SINGLE episode of the OS is an honored guest. 

[Uncle Roger]

Very true, michaelc. Like the 1991 series, the Burton movie is never a presence at Festival events. They screen HODS and NODS every year but the 2012 movie is not screened.

[michael c]

when I first entered the "fandom" about 15 years ago the 1991 series was the "sore spot"...


in retrospect the hostility directed at is was nothing. it took itself "seriously". DEAD SERIOUSLY. which is apparently what "fans" want and attitudes about in in recent years have softened because of the more "comical" take the film took. 

[Uncle Roger]

Time has been rather kind to the 1991 series. And there's also a more recent target to take the heat off.

I remember the buzz about the show. An updated Dark Shadows, produced by Dan Curtis. What could possibly go wrong? Until it premiered anyway. Joanna Going and Julianna McCarthy seemed to have been reasonably well received but the rest caught major criticism. Most of it was directed at Ben Cross for not playing Barnabas exactly the way that Jonathan Frid did. The Roger/Maggie relationship was a close second. One fan (and I use the term loosely) wrote an extended piece as to how Michael T. Weiss' razor stubble was not Dark Shadows.

The major difference is that there was no internet at the type and most of these tirades took place in the fanzines. Given the erratic publishing schedule of the fanzines, the show was off the air before the zines actually saw print.

[michael c]

yes I've heard tale about the fuss started by the changes the revival made to the original story and several of the performances...


but as you say in the pre-internet age the damage had to have been well contained. I mean some grousing in a few printed "zines" that went out to probably a few hundred (at most) die hard fans compared to the constant hysteria and snark enabled to millions by the internet almost seems quaint in hindsight.