(4) As to the parents, the theory to which Vlad alluded was that Paul Stoddard was her father, and her mother was Betty Hanscomb (she of the Sam Evans portrait).  My contribution was this: perhaps Betty Hanscomb was Jamison Collins' illegitimate daughter.  This would make Vicki a Collins family member, and perhaps make Liz feel she was obligated to look after her welfare, but not want to tell her the story of her background.

That being said, emotionally I still like the idea of Vicki as Liz's daughter.  Go figure.

CassB, my dear, I'm sorry to contradict you ... we had a wonderfully elaborate scenario that truly answered every shred of evidence, and although I've unfortunately forgotten our final solution,* I can say for certain that I did not initially propose Paul Stoddard as Victoria's father!

I'm hoping that the original thread (I think it was called "Victoria Winters Parentage" or something like that could be accessed from the forum archives?? 

My printouts and notes on all of this are, of course, in storage in another state (where else?  ), but here's what I remember ...

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*Later:  As I was writing this, it all came back ... though I'm not 100 percent certain if I've got every detail correct.

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I mentioned that I had originally believed that Paul Stoddard was Victoria's father by an unknown (and unimportant to the story) young woman, and that Elizabeth found out about it and felt guilty and wanted to support Victoria.... Later I came to accept the proposition of Elizabeth as Victoria's mother after learning of a real-life celebrity case where an actress "adopted" her actual, biological daughter and brought her home.  Nevertheless, I don't feel that Elizabeth's behavior and actions fit this scenario very well.

What I did was look at Art Wallace's original concept in the "story bible" for the series, "Shadows on the Wall."  If my memory serves correct, at that early stage it hadn't been decided if VW was Elizabeth's daughter, though it was hinted that this was a possibility.  I began talking notes of various clues that were given, such as the name "B. Hanscomb" on the old ledger, Sam Evans' sketch of "Betty Hanscomb" (which bore a striking resemblance to both Victoria and Elizabeth), etc., and noted that these clues were all in scripts written by Francis Swann.  I also looked at the other central mystery in this first part of the series, the "murder" of Paul Stoddard.  As an audience, we are clearly led in the WRONG direction the whole time, assuming that Elizabeth killed Paul (which is doubly convincing since she believes this herself).  Only at the moment of truth, there's a surprise revelation -- a complete twist on our expectations.  Similarly, I think, we as an audience were being misled to conclude erroneously that Elizabeth was VW's mother.  There was to be a moment of revelation that would have provided a surprise twist comparable to that of the mystery of Paul's murder.  However, Francis Swann, who held the keys to the VW mystery, left the series before this could happen, and the matter was then left unresolved by DC & Co.  The actors themselves, such as Joan Bennett, probably never really knew what Mr. Swann had up his sleeve, and eventually everyoone fell back on the vague supposition that Elizabeth was VW's mother, drawing their conclusions on this possibility from the original story bible (but which I think the evidence shows Swann had definitely moved away from).

I also think that Francis Swann had the popular Gothic-tinged Victorian mystery novel "The Woman in White" in the back of his mind as he was working out the mystery of VW in an updated Gothic setting.  In the Wilkie Collins  novel, the young woman of mystery ( // VW in DS) turns out to be the illegitimate half-sister of the heroine ( // Eliz. Collins Stoddard).  And the name that links them in the novel is Hanscomb.

The theory I then proposed (which was actually the brainchild initially of the now-unknown "Bob" on the VN board) was that Elizabeth's and Roger's father, Jamison (who would have been in his 60s I think -- I worked all this out), fathered VW with young Betty Hanscomb, the daughter of Collinwood servant "B. Handscomb."  Therefore VW was Elizabeth's half-sister.

That's where you came in, Cassandra B., taking all this a step further and making an even more compelling case for Betty Hanscomb (not Victoria) being Elizabeth's half-sister.  In other words, Jamison's infidelity had occurred when he was a much younger man, and he fathered Betty Hanscomb.  This scenario explains why the sketch of Betty Hanscombe resembles both Elizabeth and Victoria Winters (Betty's daughter).

But I'm forgetting the important detail of whom the father was -- could it have been Paul Stoddard?  Yes!  I think that was it -- and that was your brilliant contribution  , CassB:  Betty was Elizabeth's half-sister (the illegitimate daughter of Jamison Collins); and then Elizabeth's new husband, Paul, carried on an affair with Betty, producing Victoria.  This accounts for all of the facts, including the difficulty of explaining how Elizabeth supposedly bore a child without anyone every whispering about it, her brother Roger knowing about it, etc.

I can't remember how this worked with the "B. Hanscomb" in the ledgers, but I know that our theory left no loose ends.

I remember I had worked out the details with Sam Evans and the sketch.  Basicallly I said that he suspected who Betty really was but didn't feel it was his place to tell Victoria that he thought Betty had been her mother.  It wasn't his place, much as he thought of Vicky as a nice kid and had sympathy for her, but instead he fudged some of the facts, just as Elizabeth denied the obvious resemblance between Betty Hanscomb and Victoria.  In the 1960s people were not as open and accepting of illegitamacy as they are today -- rather, it was a "stain"  -- and it certainly would not have been appropriate for Sam to voice his conclusions to Vicki.

My and Cassandra's combined theory also explains the relationship Elizabeth has with VW.  Elizabeth cares about the girl (her niece) and feels responsible toward her knowing her father's role in the matter (as Betty's father), and Paul's role (as Victoria's father) .  Victoria Winters is a Collins.  Given societal and her own strictures, Elizabeth cannot acknowledge Victoria as such.  She feels kindly towards her, but is able to maintain a slight emotional distance that would have been far more difficult had VW actually been her own daughter (and Carolyn's sister).

Say what you will -- though it has been "decided" today that Elizabeth was Victoria's mother, a close reading of the actual evidence suggests that a far different solution was being set up but was unfortunately dropped before it could be concluded.

I came up with quite a different theory than any proposed here regarding Victoria Winters' parentage.  Taking the lead from a poster named Bob on the old VantageNet Forum, I further developed his ideas regarding Jamison Collins.  I also then added or developed Bob's ideas regarding Betty Hanscombe, discussed the original story bible, and isolated specific aspects of the mystery that I felt could be attributed only to DS writer Francis Swann (including some classic mystery elements that I felt influenced him), whom I believe held the actual solution to the mystery.  Cassandra Blair then modified my proposal and I believe our combined solution was correct ... but I'm not sure I care to enter the fray again!  If Cassandra wants to (and has time to go into it), she's welcome ... 

Despite the conventional wisdom and closed statements many make on this topic, it is not a given that Elizabeth is Victoria's mother.

I neglected to mention the most obvious disembodied head from the Oz books, which made it intact (so to speak) into the 1939 movie:  the wizard appears to Dorothy as a great, disembodied head, and instructs her to kill (kill!) the Wicked Witch of the West.

response to MB --

I had checked the TV Guide online and they seem to have made that site more difficult too.

I wasn't able to check the schedule at all unless I registered with them, filling out my address, phone, birthdate and other personal information, which I'm not willing to do.  I'm surprised they didn't want my SS # too.

 

Let's see, what was the original topic of this thread again?   

It seems there was dissatisfaction with the apparent age of Daniel in 1840 and his age as worked out chronologically based on information in the 1795 storyline.

The first episode last Friday should put matters to rest.  Daniel was talking with Desmond about the Bedford Atrocities ... He said they had occurred during a brief span of time in the Fall of 1803, when he had just turned 20 years of age.  That squares with dates from the original 1795 storyline, where Daniel was 12.  He would have been born in 1783, according to both the 1795 storyline and the 1840 storyline, making him 57 years old in 1840.

So, the writers seemed to know what they were doing, after all, in this instance.     I actually was never troubled by this whole age discussion since it appeared to me (as I wrote above), that the makeup staff was obviously trying to make Ben appear much older than Daniel.

It was reiterated in this same recent episode that Daniel has heart trouble.  So he was in ill health (physically as well as having deteriorated mentally), not a middle-aged man in good condition.  This could certainly justify others referring to Daniel as "an old man," especially given that the time period is 1840.

Joe,

I seldom by TV Guide, but I happened to do so the week the "new, improved" format appeared.  I found it extremely confusing and they do NOT list daytime programming for most stations.  Instead, they have a grid that says "VARIOUS PROGRAMMING."

I couldn't believe it.  I had caught the tail end of a movie, I think it was on Bravo, and wanted to check to see what the movie was.  No luck, since TV Guide now provides only the following information for Bravo and other cable stations from 5 a.m. to 5 p.m.:  "VARIOUS PROGRAMMING."

Sorry, but I won't waste my money by buying TV Guide again!

I hadn't heard that this was a real location but had vaguely wondered about it.  The photo looks like it must be very old -- no cars?!?

It seems doctors often run tests just to rule out the possibility of something serious, if that puts your mind to ease at all, Annie.  Although, I had the misfortune of a very serious diagnosis some years ago which the younger doctor with my insurance didn't think was anything to worry about before the test, but our old experienced family doctor was pretty sure was serious (as it turned out to be).  Nevertheless, thanks to excellent treatment, I'm fine today!  So hang in there!