Taeylor Collins,

You may want to read the complete poem "She Walks in Beauty" and a very helpful explanation of it here:

http://ezinearticles.com/?She-Walks-In-Beauty,-A-Discussion-of-the-Poem-by-Lord-Byron&id=80761

I found my understanding and appreciation of the poem greatly increased just from reading this.

Now that is very interesting, MB.  I had forgotten that you had posted something like this years ago when we were discussing the subject (sorry if I haven't taken time to find that earlier thread) ... though I didn't recall it as being quite so definitive.  Though I don't doubt what you say, it does still raise some questions in my mind.  If events did transpire as Don Costello apparently said, then why didn't Dan Curtis, in the apparently recent interview I quoted above (which I haven't seen but was transcribed from one of the DVD releases), affirm this?  I do remember that Mark Rainey has said that DC told him and his co-writer to make Elizabeth as Vicki's mother in their novel "Dreams of the Dark."  DC's directive to them wouldn't necessarily mean that was always the case with the TV show, though.

The other questions I have are:  if Art Wallace did change his mind on this regard, did he ever confirm this in an interview - or was he ever even asked about Vicki's parentage? And, finally, did Francis Swann, who is credited with numerous scripts from this period, ever confirm this in an interview? Or another writer, for that matter?  I think this last and third question probably can't be answered as I believe Swann left the show and was not interviewed in DS fandom.

I'm not trying to play the devil's advocate, but I just wonder if there is anything in writing anywhere, where any of these people are concerned.  A rather curious (to me) thought is whether Robert Costello's remarks are so widely known that this is the reason why the "Elizabeth is Vicki's mother" is the prevaiiling view.  I had never heard this anywhere except in the previous online discussion (which I had completely forgotten). And so far in the present discussion, no one else had pointed to Robert Costello as the source or evidence for this point of view.

Again, I'm not trying to argue, because this does seem to make a convincing case - moreso than the evidence from the show itself, though, IMO.  And of course some of the evidence on the show itself is open to interpretation, or else there wouldn't be this discussion.  I'm willing to accept outside evidence if it does truly depict the intentions and agreement of the writers, producers, and directors. And unfortunately, we know that they haven't seen eye-to-eye on all occasions (e.g., Art Wallace & Dan Curtis).  I really don't know anything about Don Costello, and I'm not trying to impugn what he said, just hoping for some confirmation since some questionable things have been related orally (and in print) by various DS alumni ...

Sorry this has taken so long, but I finally got to the box with my DS books and checked "Shadows on the Wall," the concept for the show written by Art Wallace.  The original names of Elizabeth and Roger's parents were, indeed, Joseph and Carolyn Collins.  The Carolyn we know was named for her grandmother.

Thanks for letting us know about that, Gothick.  I'll check into it ... hope you're right!  If so, I think I'll go ahead and order that set!  It would be interesting to see those early episodes again.

I remember addressing this point in the now long-lost discussion on the old Vantage Net board.  Somewhere in a box of files filled with miscellaneous papers in another house in another state, a printout of that thread may exist - but if I ever find it, it will probably be by accident.  Anyway, I’m trying to remember my thoughts on this.

It may be that if Sam said “25 years ago” he was not only giving a rough estimate (“give or take five years”) but he may also have been trying to throw Vicki off.  When you get to an advanced age (say, over 45 – not saying whether or not I’m there yet), it can be very difficult to place past events accurately.  This may be fudging with what’s stated (“25 years ago”), but if Sam guesses the truth about Victoria, he may not want to be the person responsible for helping her uncover that truth.

Regarding Jamison Collins’ age if he did father Victoria, I remember working that out, and he definitely would have been up there in age, at least in his 60s.  That does give me some pause as to whether he was her father.  Partly because of that, I gravitated more towards the second scenario I outlined, where Jamison fathered Betty Hanscomb, who in turn was Victoria’s mother.

I had heard a theory a long time ago that Betty was Jameson's illigitimate daughter, and that Paul and Betty were Vicki's parents, making Liz  the aunt of Vicki. Liz then sent monthly checks for Vicki's care out of guilt after she thought she killed Paul.

Yes, that was the theory I came up with along with Cassandra Blair, which Midnite has kindly provided a link for.  This theory is a bit more elaborate than my original idea, which was a bit simpler but which also satisfies the evidence.  The original idea was first suggested by a now-unknown DS fan named "Bob", although I believe I refined or changed it slightly.  I'll try to reconstruct that scenario briefly based on memory and going over the post that Midnite has provided the link to.

Both my original theory and the more elaborate one with Cassandra Blair take into account the sketch of Betty Hanscomb and references to a butler at Collinwood named Hanscomb; to this I adduced possible inspiration from the 19th century Gothic mystery "The Woman in White," in which the unknown woman of mystery turns out to be the half-sister of the heroine.  The name "Hanscomb" is the key here - it's not a very common name, and seems more than coincidental that the DS writers came up with this name in a mystery that simillarly concerns a young woman's unknown origins and her connection to a family of wealth and prestige.

We know that Elizabeth and Roger's father was Jamison Collins.  In this scenario, Jamison later had an affair with the young daughter of his butler Hanscomb, named Betty.  The affair produced Victoria.  Hence Victoria Winters is a Collins and the younger half-sister of Elizabeth and Roger.  Sam Evans' sketch of Betty clearly resembles Victoria.  Sam most likely knew that Betty Hanscomb, who spent a lot of time at Collinwood, had had an illegitimate daughter and then died young.  When Sam saw how much Victoria looked like his sketch of Betty, he probably guessed that she was Betty's daughter and that the father might have been Jamison Collins - especially knowing that Victoria had been brought to Collinwood by Elizabeth Collins Stoddard.  I believe that all the servants at Collinwood had been fired at about the time of Betty Hanscomb's pregnancy obviously in an effort to stop gossip.

The more elaborate version of this scenario has a couple of things going for it that add interest but aren't really necessary.  This version suggests that Jamison Collins had an affair with a daughter of his butler Hanscomb, and that this affair produced Betty Hanscomb (who obviously did not inherit the Collins name but her mother's name).  Betty Hanscomb is the half sister of Elizabeth and Roger.  Sam Evans' sketch of Betty Hanscomb not only looks like Victoria, but also Elizabeth, which is explained by this scenario.  A further twist is that Victoria Winters was the product of an affair between Betty Hanscomb and Paul Stoddard.  Elizabeth knew of the affair and of her husband's illegitimate daughter (Carolyn's half-sister) and made provisions to support her.  Victoria Winters, then, was a descendant of Jamison Collins and the niece of Elizabeth Collins.  Perhaps this more complex version is more in keeping with the convoluted relationships found in soap opera tradition.

Finally, let me offer this quotation from an interview with Dan Curtis, heard on one of the DVDs.  Mr. Curtis was asked why the question of Victoria Winters' identity was never resolved.  Mr. Curtis responded:

"We never got around to what Vicki's background was, and I never knew it."

I believe this accurately reflects the early days of writing and producing Dark Shadows.  The writers would seem to have been given some guidelines and suggestions, but were free to develop their own ideas too.  It's significant that all of the scripts using my ideas above are attributed to Francis Swann, who was also a novelist.  In my opinion, it was largely in order to satisfy fans that DC decided to legitimize the idea that Elizabeth was Victoria's mother.  I think that was one of the possibilities and may have been the suggestion Joan Bennett followed, but I think that was only one hint among many that was suggested in the early days of the mystery - and there were sure to be many suggestions and red herrings to keep viewers interested.

in an odd and unsatisfying way,is that the show itself chose not to solve one of it's key mysteries.once it was decided that the show was moving in a new(supernatural)direction this could have been cleared up with a few words.indeed the scenes leading up to vicki and jeff's ill-fated wedding would have been the perfect time and joan bennett certainly played them from a decidedly maternal point of view.but for whatever reason the writers chose to leave this open-ended.

You make a good point - that the question of Victoria Winter's parentage could have been cleared up, and the time of her wedding would have been a perfect time to do it.

I would ask, though, if every mystery or unexplained event on the show had been explained ... if the show would have been as memorable, or as stimulating to the brain cells.  Would there be as much interesting food for thought and discussion?

One thing that makes DS different from a run-of-the-mill TV show, I think, is the fact that it seems to have deliberately left a number of questions unanswered.  There is ambiguity and room for interpretation, just as one finds in a higher order of literature.

Cassandra Blair, do you recall how we came up with a solution to the question of Victoria Winters' parentage?

I confess I don't remember the details, though I think I transferred and saved those posts on my laptop.  I recall that one aspect to my explanation hinged on the Betty Hanscomb picture and the inspiration I believed the writers (probably Francis Swann) drew from Wilkie Collins' "The Woman in White."

Good points by everyone ... an especially good one is Nelson Collins' about how there is no development of any mystery about Victoria Winters' background, no explanation about where she's from or why she came to Collinwood.  And your comments about Jean Simmons are honestly painful and ones I haven't seen voiced before, but they were my impressions, too, as I recalled from my original viewing.  Ms. Simmons needed more to work with; at least so far, her character is just bland and there's not much there there.

I have a hard time building any empathy with David.

Although I haven't gotten to the part with Sarah's ghost yet, I remember from my previous viewing that she looked authentically 18th century with her bonnet and dress.