And Yet Another New Slideshow

[KMR]

But as for the extremeness of the padded cell and the shock treatments, sadly it seems such practices were certainly in existence in the '50s and '60s, and even beyond. There were broad sweeping investigations of many institutions where such practices and those much worse took place with the end result being that such places were shut down for ineffective treatment and excessive cruelty. The film is probably strongly implying that Windcliff was such a place.

To my mind, this fits in with the kind of logic that applied in the original series.  I have no trouble with Windcliff administering such extreme treatments to someone who's seeing ghosts (Maggie in the movie), if I can also accept their very laissez-faire treatment of an assumed kidnapper/serial killer (Willie in the OS).

[Cousin_Barnabas]

but I can never get past the storytelling sloppiness of today's image. "Maggie Evans", seen here being prompted Josette's ghost, applies for a governess position for a "prominent Maine family". en route to the prearranged interview changes her name on the fly to "Victoria Winters" and then arrives to meet a group of people expecting a girl named Victoria Winters.

this is never explained and a needless bit of illogic. if they knew they wanted to go with this angle they could have had her change her name at an earlier point.

I still maintain that she used the assumed name on the application, made a mistake in practicing her introduction, saw the poster which reminded her of the assumed name (snow, cold, winter...), and corrected herself.  If nothing else, that part shows that -- even from the first line of the script -- she is conflicted over her own identity, always has been, and always will be... until the time comes when she can be her own person, or someone else's own person.   

And I love the fact that Maggie is in a diner, sitting with Josette.  The flashback had to be one of my favorite parts, if only because it was so meaningful in so many ways. 

[KMR]

I still maintain that she used the assumed name on the application, made a mistake in practicing her introduction, saw the poster which reminded her of the assumed name (snow, cold, winter...), and corrected herself.  If nothing else, that part shows that -- even from the first line of the script -- she is conflicted over her own identity, always has been, and always will be... until the time comes when she can be her own person, or someone else's own person.   

Thank you, CB. That's a great interpretation.

And I love the fact that Maggie is in a diner, sitting with Josette.  The flashback had to be one of my favorite parts, if only because it was so meaningful in so many ways.

OMG! I never thought of that!

[michael c]

I agree the the setup and possibilities of the 'magtoria' character had a lot of interesting potential...


but again it's one the the narrative's more notable flaws that the character is given this rather elaborate and convoluted backstory and this strong introduction...and then is promptly relegated to the sidelines in favor of other characters and another story in which she only plays a peripheral role.


I mean she's "supposed to" have a lot of significance in terms of her relationship to Josette but as the film plays out somehow that gets lost. she ends up being a character along the lines of Roger or Carolyn...an important "presence" at Collinwood but not really as central to the story as her early scenes would implicate.


I just think it's odd. again they took a lot of trouble and expense filming the flashback sequences for the character but then sort of marginalized her from the overall narrative. I don't know if Bella fell prey to excessive postproduction editing of if the role was never really there to begin with but it's strange for a film's putative "heroine" to end up with so little screentime.

[michael c]

and I hadn't really thought of it before but indeed the shot of 'magtoria' in the diner seems to be a slight wink to the character's waitress role in the OS.

[Gerard]

I also thought it was a brilliant tribute to the OS to have Maggie Evans (Victoria Winters) sitting in a hash diner.  Depp and Burton did their homework well.  It was magnificent that they kept the fact that Maggie Evans, not Victoria Winters, is the reincarnation of Josette, just as it had been in the OS.  It was a vast improvement over the '91 version, a true testimonial to the OS.  When I first saw the film in the theater, and she said:  "Hello, my name is Maggie Eva...," I shouted:  "Oh, my god!  She's Maggie Evans!"  The few who knew the original series in the two-dozen in our group who were there agreed, although the rest were mystified.  Afterwards, as we sat in an Olive Garden discussing the film, we filled them in on the OS.  They all agreed it was brilliant.

Gerard

[Cousin_Barnabas]

she ends up being a character along the lines of Roger or Carolyn...an important "presence" at Collinwood but not really as central to the story as her early scenes would implicate.

I consider the well-done parts of the picture to be the scenes with Pfeiffer and/or Heathcote, so I only really think about those parts and tend to ignore the rest, hence my keen interest in the flashback and in Victoria's past.  As a result of this fixation, I give the characters and scenes more life and substance than they actually have on-screen.  Victoria's screentime was horribly cut.  Her character and development would make little sense to an outsider, but to people like us, who love the original, it's really a blessing to have received what we did, but a curse knowing that there is so much more that never made it into the movie.  That's where all of the rest of the good stuff was, I'm sure. 

In re-watching Leviathans, I like the fact that Jeb mentions that both of Maggie's parents are [spoiler]dead, that no one will miss her.  No family.  No connections but the ones at Collinwood, just like Vicki[/spoiler]  It made me realize just how perfectly blended the characters of Maggie and Vicki became, and how spot-on this twist was in the Burton film. 

[Mysterious Benefactor]

Having the scene on the train where Maggie Evans changes her name to Victoria Winters flow into her disembarking the train, hitching a ride with the hippies, and then arriving at Collinwood as Vicki and not Maggie does come off as odd as edited. Clearly Collinwood is expecting a Vicki and not a Maggie. But what if Maggie didn't fill out the application before she traveled to Collinsport? What if Josette's ghost, who obviously has influence over her, persuaded Maggie to go to Collinsport first and then contact Elizabeth? Then Vicki, as it were, may have even called Elizabeth from the train station, and she may have even been in Collinsport for two or more days, giving her time to fill out the application and get it back to Elizabeth before she went for the in-person interview. The film as edited certainly doesn't make it seem that way. But judicious editing can make a lot of things seem different from the way they were originally intended in a script. And in at least one case that we can definitely point to in the film, the flow of the editing, particularly Vicki unpacking her suitcase before Josette's ghost tells her that "he's coming," makes it seem that Barnabas arrives on the say day that Vicki does when, if one is paying attention, that cannot be the case because of everyone at Collinwood wearing different clothes. But if one doesn't pick up on the clothes, one definitely gets the strong impression it's the same day. Who knows if there were actually scripted scenes that would have made the name change more logical? We may never know.

And while we're on the subject of possibly missing scenes, there are at least two other interesting questions about Vicki's initial arrival in Collisport/at Collinwood. 1) Where did she get the money for the train ticket? And probably more importantly 2) How did she obtain a suitcase of clothes that she arrives with? We clearly saw Maggie escape from Windcliff with just the clothes on her back - the soaking wet clothes on her back, in fact. Yet a well put together Vicki travels to Collinsport and arrives at Collinwood. So, could it actually be that scenes are missing between Maggie seeing the notice in newspaper and the train ride to Collinsport? Might have Maggie gotten a job at the diner we saw her in after her escape? If so, that could explain where Maggie got money for the train ticket and the clothes - and it would also explain why, when Bella Heathcote was cast, her character was frequently referred to as a waitress who Barnabas falls for. Again, though, we may never know.

A sometimes unfortunate fact of filmmaking that happens time and time again is how scenes are often removed from films because the studio, the producer(s), and sometimes even the director feels that even though they imparted important info, they were cut because it was decided that they slowed down the momentum of the film. I've heard that said many times during DVD commentaries and/or featurettes. So, perhaps that's what happened with many of the known or presumed missing scenes in the Depp/DS film.

[Mysterious Benefactor]

Victoria's screentime was horribly cut.  Her character and development would make little sense to an outsider, but to people like us, who love the original, it's really a blessing to have received what we did, but a curse knowing that there is so much more that never made it into the movie.  That's where all of the rest of the good stuff was, I'm sure.

I don't doubt for a second that much of Vicki's part was cut from the film (in fact, I plan to make an upcoming post about one thing that I'm really disappointed was cut), but I would disagree that as edited Vicki's arc makes little sense. Her arc would certainly seem to be that she overcame a great deal of suffering in her life to reach her true destiny. And much of that destiny was to reach Collinwood, to meet Barnabas, to at last find a home, and to become an important part of Barnabas' existence. Vicki says as much in the current scene in the slideshow and particularly in yesterday's quote:

1972 - Vicki: 'For most of my life, I've wanted a place where
I belonged. A place where I could feel at home again. Feel
loved again. And I've found that place here at Collinwood.'

And I would also add the concluding part of that where Vicki says "And here" as she steps in to kiss Barnabas passionately.

Granted, it's a different arc from what we saw in the original series, and on that front it departs from how much of the film draws from the situations/characterizations in the pre-Barn eps - but it is a valid arc in which all the pieces are indeed there within the film. And one could go so far as to say Vicki's ultimate fate in the film could also be seen as her ultimate destiny. But we should wait until the December slideshow to discuss anything related to Vicki's ultimate destiny. 

[Gothick]

That's a wonderful image of Eva Green posted on today's slideshow.  The lipstick (although it is very similar to Joan Bennett's trademark look) makes me think of Bette Davis and the red dress makes me think of Bette's infamous work in the 1930s classic JEZEBEL.

I know it's probably just a flaw in something or other but I could swear it looks as if there are tiny cracks on Angie's face in this image...

G.

[Uncle Roger]

I thought that Angie's cracking like an Easter egg here muted its effect in the finale. It would have been more impressive if I hadn't already seen the same bit of business during the happening.

[Mysterious Benefactor]

As I commented in the In Release topic for the film, I actually liked the cracking being show at this point. It's an interesting foreshadowing of what's to come - just as her adjusting her face in her first scene in 1972 is a hint that there's more to her appearance than first meets the eye.

it's interesting how Angelique's fate in the climax is actually hinted at in the scene where her forehead cracks slightly after she witnesses Barnabas and Vicki kissing at The Happening

And as I was preparing the quotes/captures for the slideshow this month, I noticed that it's also interesting that from the very outset of seeing Angelique in 1972 we're shown that it's as if her retained youth and beauty are simply a mask she's presenting to the world, which is indeed exactly what she is doing -

- though without knowing the ending, we certainly wouldn't really pick up on that so soon in the film.

Though at the point that it happens during The Happening, it's become much more obvious.

[Mysterious Benefactor]

The Vicki sequence that I'm really disappointed wasn't included in the film is when she dances with Barnabas at the party:

It seems like perhaps it would have been an even more tender moment than their exchange on the terrace, and it might have also cemented their relationship even more in the audience's mind. But alas, perhaps it was yet another sequence that may have been sacrificed for the momentum of the film - or even in order to comply with that weird WB edict that the film run under 2 hours.

Unfortunately I don't have the magazines that came out in the few months prior to the film's release (I lent them to a friend back at Christmastime of last year when I gave him a copy of the Blu-ray as a gift and I haven't gotten them back yet) so I can't look up the actual article - but it would be interesting to go back to whichever article it was that mentioned how long Burton's initial cut of the film was because it was much longer than the version that was ultimately released.

[Cousin_Barnabas]

What I meant about Vicki's character development was really a commentary on how sloppily her relationships were formed.  If one pays careful attention, he can get all of the pieces from the film, but if I were an average Joe, I would be wondering how in the heck this nice girl fell for the vampire dude.  It's like, all of a sudden, they are kissing on the terrace and sharing their darkest secrets.  Even the walk on the beach was wasted in this regard, as it was trying to make up for the fact that David's screentime was cut as well.  Vicki's AWOL for a huge chunk of the narrative, which focuses more on the humorous elements of Barnabas and his transition to 1972.  It seems, to me, that much of the story was pushed aside in favor of the "comedic" scenes. 

[Mysterious Benefactor]

if I were an average Joe, I would be wondering how in the heck this nice girl fell for the vampire dude.  It's like, all of a sudden, they are kissing on the terrace and sharing their darkest secrets.

Though it's really the whole point of most of Vicki's arc that she doesn't understand her pull to Collinwood or her attraction to Barnabas. Both are a mystery to her - and Vicki says as much in the scene on the terrace. Here are two recent examples from the slideshow:

1972 - Vicki: 'I don't know why, but for some reason, I feel like I
 can tell you anything. It's like I've known you forever.'

1972 - Vicki: 'I don't know what it is. I just know there's
always been something pulling me here. Pulling me to Collinsport.
To you.'

So, if at that point they're both still a mystery to Vicki, one couldn't fault the possibly that they may still be a mystery to some in the audience and they're questioning just what it is that's going on. However, by the end of the film, things become much clearer. (Though as I said previously, we should probably wait until the December slideshow to discuss Vicki's ultimate destiny.  )

Even the walk on the beach was wasted in this regard, as it was trying to make up for the fact that David's screentime was cut as well.

Back in August when the slideshow was focusing on that scene, I'd wanted to make a post about it, but time got away from me and I was going to wait until it comes around again in the slideshow next year. But since the scene has been brought up now, it's interesting, because there's more going on in there than just a simple discussion about David - particularly when Vicki delivers the line -

Vicki: 'Part of me believes there are things in this world we don't
understand. Things like magic, death, destiny.'

- and that way she looks at Barnabas when she references destiny. It's definitely laying a foundation for what's to come. 

Vicki's AWOL for a huge chunk of the narrative

One thing that I've found quite interesting as I've been doing the captures/quotes for the film's slideshow is that, believe it or not, it actually seems that Angelique disappears for more extended periods of time than Vicki does, which is actually fascinating when one considers some have accused the film of focusing too much time on Angelique.  But then that perception could be similar to how we often think that Mrs. Johnson was always a presence at Collinwood on the original show, but the reality is that she was actually in less than 60 eps (I'm too lazy to dig up the actual number  ). Though it could easily be that both Mrs. Johnson on the show and Angelique in the film have such strong presences when they're on screen that we feel like they're there more than they actually are.