Author Topic: Discuss - Ep #0780  (Read 5702 times)

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Discuss - Ep #0780
« on: May 15, 2009, 10:03:29 PM »

Offline Taeylor Collins

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Re: Discuss - Ep #0780
« Reply #1 on: May 16, 2009, 02:00:59 AM »
VO: David Selby

David Selby get’s another great line.  “It’s my hymn!” I love that Quentin is calling Trask on his shiz!!  A werewolf and a vampire facing off!  Barnabas and Quentin are gonna work together—YAY! 
David is very tall!  As if you all didn’t know that! LOL  I admire tall men.  They are yummers! 

Why the heck would Barnabas sleep in that secret room??  Lord only knows how many people know a bout it.  How very carless of him!   

“…Unusually high strung!”  Boy is that an understatement!  As I have pointed out before I feel sorry for Carl, but honestly he gets on my nerves a bit!  Why, why are you killing another Collins Barnabas?  Messing with the future timeline, much?   
Where are all the servants when Carl is screaming all over the house??   Oh yeah, I forgot DC is too cheap to pay them!  ;) 

Love the green light that comes up revealing Barney! 

I thought Q was Gregory when it was just showing the feet walking.  That was a nice surprise that I don’t remember everything about DS, scene for scene!
Lord, those baby blues, lips, and nose---IT’S TOO MUCH!  I can’t take it! [faint2]
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Offline Pansity

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Re: Discuss - Ep #0780
« Reply #2 on: May 25, 2009, 08:44:40 PM »
LOL on the replay of the tag Karlen makes it a point NOT to touch the flmsy gravestone!

Quentin in the drawing room with the gramophone and a numb look on his face.  But this time we see why they set him up there.  Trask comes in the front door, and if Q was in his room, he'd not have been there to lecturre.  And that would have deprived us of a great verbal fencing match between Trask and Quentin (the later in full formal articulate smartass Rhett Butler mode). [love2]

Poor Carl – truer words were never said than what he said to Trask “People I think I can trust, it turns out I can’t.”  That in a nutshell seems to be the problem of everyone in the family: Quentin trusts Evan and doesn’t trust Beth.  Judith distrusts her brothers and trusts Trask. Carl doesn’t trust anyone else but trusts Trask.  Edward trusts Barnabas but doesn’t believe either of his brothers.  It goes on and on.

In these scenes Carl seems frantic to the point of manic and unbalanced.  And off they go, armed with the ubiquitous cross, to go a vampire hunting.

Barn is out of his coffin, but the mausoleum door is wide open. The door creakis open and Barn turns to see Quentin bound in.    Nice interchange, once Quentin points out he knows (and apparently saves himself from getting bitten).  Barn raises rhetorical question of “You can look at me without fear” and Quentin points out (in a good character moment, though already telegraphed through good acting throught the storyline) that he’s always with fear.  Darn, the close up stays on Barn.  I would have liked to have seen the reaction shot when Quentin asked if his brother was dead.  Is he relieved?  Annoyed? Worried?  Of such things character development is built.  Barn seems slow on the pickup though, and it apparently annoys Quentin.  He has to spell it out in words of one syllable that not only was Carl there, “HE KNOWS!!”

Interesting undercurrent in the scene.  Quentin is doing what he has to to save Barn and thus save his own hide, but he seems very ill at ease and uncomfortable.  He also seems to watch Barnabas very closely, like watching for something.  I don’t think that he told Barn his part in Carl being inside the mausoleum, why he doesn’t want to be the one to find Carl.  He knows Carl is NOT going to trust him and is real unlikely to listen to him if he tries to keep him from talking.  My though t is that in the back of his mind hes thinking Barn has some power to make Carl forget without killing him – IF he chooses to. My guess is that that's the life ring he clings to to keep from facing the fact that he was willing to have his own brother killed to save his hide.

Quick work. Someone found a TARDIS and used it to move the coffin <G>.

Back to the Drawing Room, and Barn playing with Carl’s mind (or whatevers left of it).  Karlen does panic beautifully.  Carl is beyond his last nerve.  Barn is really being unnecessarily cruel here.  Maybe subconscious revenge for the practical jokes?

Carl was strangled, but he’s still visbily breathing, unlike Jenny.  Feet approaching the Drawing Room.  LOL I bet on Quentin.  And it IS.  At least he has the grace to be upset that Carl is dead.  Really upset, he’s on HIS last nerve now, and Barn is not helping things.  I’ve said before some time back, I think Quentin is scared to death of Barn, wondering if this would happen to Carl for talking, what will happen to HIM if something goes wrong. That's my theory on why he was so quick to tell Barn that he knew he had to do it.  Hes got enough problems without a pissed off vampire thinking he's going to rat him out.  Barn was capable of consciously deciding to kill Carl to keep the secrets, then dumping more guilt on Quentin by pointing out that it protects him too.

FINALLY someone stands up to a Trask for telling the family where they will and will not go in the house.  Unfortunately it doesn’t work with the overbearing Trask. Bet Quentin is seeing his life flashing before his eyes as Trask opens that door.  Good thing Barn works fast, the body's stashed somewhere.   YIKES! There goes the hand.  Quentin is trying so hard not to freak out that his reactions aren’t right.  He waits too long to react when Carl falls, and Trask is right on it. But once he DOES react it seems very genuine, horror, shock (and we know a heck of a lot of guilt probably a ton of other emotions roiling around too).  Proably all the reactions-- and then some -- that he bottled up when he really DID find Carl, but had to hold in because of Barnabas.

Ugh Trask playing Vampire hunter at the Old House. I always wondered why Barn didn’t just deal with Trask early on. He deserved killing waay more than Carl. Now we have the stay here till dawn challenge. And right on cue, the cock crows for the fade out.

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Offline MagnusTrask

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Re: Discuss - Ep #0780
« Reply #3 on: May 27, 2009, 04:14:37 AM »
Poor Carl – truer words were never said than what he said to Trask “People I think I can trust, it turns out I can’t.”  That in a nutshell seems to be the problem of everyone in the family: Quentin trusts Evan and doesn’t trust Beth.  Judith distrusts her brothers and trusts Trask. Carl doesn’t trust anyone else but trusts Trask.  Edward trusts Barnabas but doesn’t believe either of his brothers.  It goes on and on.

I liked this.

I think we're underestimating how horrific the murder of Carl is though.   More and more, unfortunately, this one incident undermines the image I've had for forty years of Barnabas as an heroic figure.   It changes everything.   He's not just messing with history (which is something he eventually came to see as his prrpose there), he's committing murder, of a relative, an innocent, who only happened to find out his secret.   Certainly I identify with the panic and desperation, but at this point in the story Barnabas falls apart, lying less and less convincingly, making stupid mistakes right and left, leading to the murder of a cousin.... It was a spectacularly disastrous and hasty move too, since it was taken without knowing if Carl had talked yet.   Barnabas is falling apart, in his senses and in his morals.

I'm not saying it was bad drama, it wasn't.   It was daring I suppose.    I've often said that the only pleasure Barnabas takes from life is when he destroys an enemy.   He even does it with Carl, who only became an enemy by finding out his secret.   
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Offline alwaysdavid

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Re: Discuss - Ep #0780
« Reply #4 on: May 27, 2009, 04:38:59 AM »
Carl still breathing after death.  Could the camera operators not anticipated this since it's occurred before and go for a close up?   The practical reason for Carl's death was that John Karlen left the show to move to LA according to 16 magazine and permanently.  Maybe he irked DC enough to want to do him in in a violent way.  Also this is really the end of the first storyline and the beginning of another and DC seemed to always crank up the body count at the end of a story.
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Re: Discuss - Ep #0780
« Reply #5 on: May 27, 2009, 04:46:18 AM »
If DC really saw Barnabas killing Carl in cold blood as just a practical move because of John Karlen's plans, then he truly was nuts.   You don't have a protagonist kill a man for finding out his secret life, not if you want him to stay a protagonist.   Barnabas is acting as he did when he was the show's villain whom we were meant to despise.
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Offline Taeylor Collins

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Re: Discuss - Ep #0780
« Reply #6 on: May 28, 2009, 01:00:43 AM »
I have honestly never saw Barnabas as a hero, however, I was about 15 when I started watching the original show.  I love Barney, but he isn't hero material.  He is always in a very gray area! 
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Offline Philippe Cordier

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Re: Discuss - Ep #0780
« Reply #7 on: May 28, 2009, 02:10:06 AM »
I have honestly never saw Barnabas as a hero, however, I was about 15 when I started watching the original show.  I love Barney, but he isn't hero material.  He is always in a very gray area! 

"Anti-hero" would be a good description.

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Offline Taeylor Collins

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Re: Discuss - Ep #0780
« Reply #8 on: May 28, 2009, 06:43:47 AM »
Why yes it would PC!  Thanx!  :)
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Offline Pansity

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Re: Discuss - Ep #0780
« Reply #9 on: May 28, 2009, 02:58:52 PM »
Great point you guys are raising about why they chose to KILL Carl rather than send him off somewhere.  Of course it's anyone's guess why they decided to kill him, but once they did, they made excellent use of it.  One theory to think about is, when finding out Karlen was leaving, they decided to kill Carl -- and in THAT way -- to use it for character development for Quentin.

Think about it:  The death of Jenny and the curse are already starting to change him -- or let us see more of what's behind the mask he shows the world -- pick one. He's been doing things that horrified him, and he is learning empathy and compassion for others.  He's learning things about himself that he'd rather never have known.  Now he learns he's capable of knowingly leaving his brother to be killed -- then is later complicit when he IS killed. This isn't something he can listen to Beth and rationalize away because it was the creature did it, not him.  HE did this, and made a decision to do this -- and it wasn't the same kind of life and death panic that he faced with Jenny and the knife. KNOWING that he is capable of doing this, and has to keep living the charade, has GOT to have an effect on him.

Another interesting point -- I don't believe we ever find out what, if anything, he's tells Beth about this.   Given how things go with them later, I'm thinking maybe he thinks not even she could accept him if she knew what he'd done. On some levels that could even explain Amanda Harris, someone who only knows of him what he wants her to know, rather than both the good and bad of the person he really is.  Speaking of her also makes me think of his [spoiler]violently self loathing speech to Julia, expecting her to run in fear and disgust once he remembers who he is.[/spoiler]

As to Barnabas being an anti hero: Virtually all of the main characters of DS could be described that way. Only the degrees of good and bad in each of them varies.

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Offline MagnusTrask

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Re: Discuss - Ep #0780
« Reply #10 on: May 28, 2009, 04:43:57 PM »
Very good post I could not add to, except to point out that Karlen was already gone.   His reappearance with Pansy is almost immediately followed by his death, so the writers must have had his end mapped out, and must have brought him back consciously intending to use him in the way they did.
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Offline michael c

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Re: Discuss - Ep #0780
« Reply #11 on: May 29, 2009, 04:06:57 AM »
i'm surprised carl's death has such resonance with fans.

1897 is a time travel storyline,which is in effect "temporary",and the characters that populate it are,accordingly,"disposable" in a way.

they are created to be eventually killed off.true 1897 lasted longer than the other storylines set in the past but aficionados know that most of the major characters will be six feet under by the time it winds down.

for me it's nowhere near as shocking than if barnabas had killed one of the "real" present time characters like willie or maggie evans or mrs.johnson.that would have been shocking.
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Offline MagnusTrask

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Re: Discuss - Ep #0780
« Reply #12 on: May 29, 2009, 04:02:11 PM »
For me, the characters in 1897 seem better drawn and more interesting and easier to care about than the relatively neutral "present day" characters, so they matter more to me.  It's all fiction, and the late 60s are 40 years ago now, so every era in DS is now a sort of period piece populated with many now-deceased characters.

I also think it matters how and when people die.   Not everyone is doomed to die in 1897, and the fact that that happened in 1795 doesn't mean it will in 1897.   Many could live fulfilling lives after all this is over.   If Barnabas saw the people of 1897 as disposable though in the way you're talking about, because he came from the future, that would be an interesting part of his motivation in killing Carl.
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Re: Discuss - Ep #0780
« Reply #13 on: May 31, 2009, 02:41:09 AM »
You make some really great points in that post, Magnus. One thing I'd like to add about Carl's death is the thing that bugs me above all other things I've mentioned.  Barnabas does it NOT KNOWING what role Carl plays in future events, and what things will be irretrievably changed by his death.  I go back to the reference I just made in another topic to "City on the Edge of Forever", but in this case the circumstances would be the reverse.  How will the absence of someone who previously existed change the big picture of how history had to play out?  Yes, this is true to some extent of everyone Barn dealt with and had a part in the death of, but with Carl he's part of the actual family, thus has more chance of changing things (eg -- by NOT being around to give birth to a branch of the family that originally existed in "real time").

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Re: Discuss - Ep #0780
« Reply #14 on: May 31, 2009, 03:06:26 AM »
Since there are only two branches of the Collins family in the future, I think it could be safetly assumed that Carl really had no functional part in the future other than the childish uncle of the heir, Jamison Collins. But Barnabas had no idea what Carl had to do with future events, and his lack of research is really irritating. Barnabas is presumably supposed to have supernatural powers, so couldn't he have just erased Carl's memory? [ghost_azn]
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