Vicki's Mother

[Midnite]

It definitely isn't my favorite, so if that was indeed a factor in popularizing this popular concept, I think that's regrettable.

I thought Elizabeth treated Victoria more as if she might know something about who she really is but not as her own secret daughter.  Having looked closely at the evidence at one time, I don't think this was the writers' original intent.  At least, a strong case (in my view, a stronger case) can be made in support of other possibilities.   In particular, I think DS writer Francis Swann had a completely different take on the situation based on his early scripts.  But he left the show and the mystery was eventually allowed to fade into the carpet.

Philippe summed up my feelings EXACTLY.  One scene that helped convince me that Liz is not Vicki's mother is when Liz [spoiler]forces herself to leave Collinwood, defeating her own fears for Carolyn's sake.  It's Vicki that suggested she handle getting Carolyn released, telling her she must demonstrate her love for daughter by showing up at the jail, and Liz's mind seemed to remain fixed on Carolyn's and her own situation.  Once Liz convinced herself that she must screw up her courage and leave the house in order to help the deeply troubled Carolyn, her exit played out like a slow march to the gallows.[/spoiler]  We never saw Liz make a sacrifice approaching anything like this for Vicki, and there was no acknowledgment in this scene by Liz that she might actually have more than one daughter.

[quentincollins]

I have the DS 1991 comic book tie ins that were done ( and were canceled mid-story too). In one of them Roger and Liz talk about Vicki being her daughter.
It's not "cannon" to some people I know, but it is more evidence of Liz being Vicki's mother in that series too.

[michael c]

liz as vicki's mother in the 1991 series is a bit of a ho-hum as far as i'm concerned.

barnabas was clearly the centerpiece of this series,at least in terms of how season one played out,and there's no reason to believe that that was going to change.

the whole "jane eyre" aspect of the victoria character,a waif in search of her identity,was basically absent from this version,it was barely touched upon.and the elizabeth character had nowhere near the stature that joan bennett brought to the role in the original series.here she was written as a virtual nonentity.she had absolutely no storyline.

so unless the plotting had changed dramatically in season two and beyond this "revelation" would not have had much impact.

[Nelson Collins]

We never saw Liz make a sacrifice approaching anything like this for Vicki, and there was no acknowledgment in this scene by Liz that she might actually have more than one daughter.

Perhaps, but had the writers gone forward with story that Vicki was Liz' daughter, surely that very scenario would have provided much fodder for soap opera-y goodness, with Vicki glad that she has an identity but at the same time feeling used and even deceived by all the lies and evasions that Liz told. 

What a tragic story it could have been for Vicki to lose Jeff, discover her true identity and just has she and Liz are learning to accept their new relationship, Vicki still waiting/grieving for Jeff, disappears into the past with him and leaves Liz heartbroken again....

[Taeylor Collins]

NOW that would be a great storyline Nelson!

[Taeylor Collins]

I have the DS 1991 comic book tie ins that were done ( and were canceled mid-story too). In one of them Roger and Liz talk about Vicki being her daughter.
It's not "cannon" to some people I know, but it is more evidence of Liz being Vicki's mother in that series too.

It's not cannon for the old show but for the new one for sure!

[quentincollins]

Vicki was only written out into the past becasue AM's recast hadn't worked out. The "91 series if it had continued would probably not have written Vicki out, instead, Vicki would have probably replaced Maggie in the following storyline remakes of 1897, Leviathons, Paralell Time, etc.
Also, as the Barnabas/Vicki romance was much more important in the remake, I doubt the Jeff/Vicki romance would've gone s deep as it did in the original. It's all specualtion of course.
Wouldn't it have been great to see Joannna Going as the bitchy Kitty Soames? I could cry just thinking how wonderful Barbara Steele would have been as Magda.

[Taeylor Collins]

Well I for one would have hoped they would do The Leviathans after the last disaster although I love the Leviathans.  However, yes I have almost cried many times just imagining the RIOT Barbara Steele would have been as Magda!  

[Pansity]

I would ask, though, if every mystery or unexplained event on the show had been explained ... if the show would have been as memorable, or as stimulating to the brain cells.  Would there be as much interesting food for thought and discussion?

One thing that makes DS different from a run-of-the-mill TV show, I think, is the fact that it seems to have deliberately left a number of questions unanswered.  There is ambiguity and room for interpretation, just as one finds in a higher order of literature.

Excellent point you make on the plot holes left open being what makes in this case DS more than a run of the mill show.  It's a pattern that's been seen in fandom for a number of years. 

Many of the shows that attract longstanding loyal fandoms are those who to be blunt, leave plot holes and inconsistancies that you could drive a fleet of Death Stars through.  It's the unanswered questions, the contradictions and confusions that get and keep fans talking, and inspire mountains of fanfic attempting to make things make sense.  The prime example of this are the series and movies like  Trek, DS, Man From Uncle,  the Star Wars and Indiana Jones movies.  Many many unanswered questions, and very active fandoms that have gone on for years. 

Contrast that with Babylon 5, a wonderful series beloved by most fans. It was carefully crafted, and an entire universe and political system shown in the 5 year run, most of which was written by the series creator.  JMS had a plan in mind, like a visual novel, with a beginning, middle and an end.  He was active on the boards in the early days of the on line Services, when B5 was in first run.  He politely asked (and fandom being what it is -- and most espeically was back then virtually everyone complied) that everyone wait and see where he was going before publishing any fanfiction.  Only a small number of people went ahead against his wishes. But, when the series came to an end, there wasn't much left to write ABOUT, as he had filled almost all the loopholes and plotholes.

So, in a way you could say we're drawn to shows not totally because they are good and characters and situations grab us, but because of what DOESNT work, and how we can try to make it right.

Jeannie

[Philippe Cordier]

I thought I had already made my last post to this thread, but ... this will be the last one   

In looking through Art Wallace's concept for the series, "Shadows on the Wall", I realized that this is another source that needs to be taken into account.  We know that many changes came about and that the "story bible" wasn't closely followed in many aspects.  Still, this early plan for the series remains a valuable resource for the early days of DS.  Wallace provides detailed character and background descriptions for all of the major players, and it was not the original plan for Elizabeth to secretly be Victoria’s mother.

I began years back with the belief that Elizabeth was Victoria's mother.  But on what basis?  Only that this was the widespread belief in DS fandom, so I just picked it up as the conventional wisdom.  As I began watching the series closely, though, I was unconvinced of this theory and also noticed that there was evidence pointing in another direction. 

I'm not saying that Elizabeth as Victoria's mother wasn't a possibility hinted at early in the series, but I am saying that that wasn't the original plan.  Nor, in my view, was it the plan of Francis Swann, who wrote many of the scripts holding a number of clues.  Even though there were some suggestions that Elizabeth was Victoria's mother (which probably came about because of the resemblance between Alexandra Moltke and Joan Bennett), the theory still doesn't strike me as confirmed, or even convincing.

[Mysterious Benefactor]

There seems to be a few misconceptions in this topic, so I suppose they need to be cleared up.    Joan Bennett didn't merely decide on her own to play her scenes as if Liz was Vicki's mother, similar to, say, how Grayson Hall decided completely on her own to play her scenes with the subtext that Julia was in love with Barnabas. Nor was it that fans have simply jumped to the conclusion that Liz was Vicki's mother based on Alexandra Moltke's resemblance to Joan Bennett or with a desire that that would be the sentimental choice. The situation, as explained on several occasions by Robert Costello, who as DS' producer was in a position to know, was that as DS was being cast, the resemblance of Alexandra to Joan was noticed and Art Wallace decided he would deviate from his Shadows on the Wall bible to make Liz Vicki's mother rather than Paul Stoddard Vicki's father. And then, according to both Costello and Joan, she was told of the change and to play her scenes whenever possible with the subtext that Vicki was Liz' daughter. Those are the facts. Though, of course, the mystery of Vicki's parentage was never solved on DS, so the facts of what went on behind the scenes with regard to that plot thread have close to no bearing on canon because none of it was ever followed through on the actual show. Which is why fans will be forever able to speculate on Vicki's parentage and almost anyone's theory can be as valid as anyone else's. But make no mistake in thinking that Art Wallace didn't have an endgame in mind. It's just that his departure from the show and its subsequent turn into directions that he never envisioned caused the mystery of Vicki's past to be dropped almost as if it had never been an issue - which is actually sad...

[Philippe Cordier]

Now that is very interesting, MB.  I had forgotten that you had posted something like this years ago when we were discussing the subject (sorry if I haven't taken time to find that earlier thread) ... though I didn't recall it as being quite so definitive.  Though I don't doubt what you say, it does still raise some questions in my mind.  If events did transpire as Don Costello apparently said, then why didn't Dan Curtis, in the apparently recent interview I quoted above (which I haven't seen but was transcribed from one of the DVD releases), affirm this?  I do remember that Mark Rainey has said that DC told him and his co-writer to make Elizabeth as Vicki's mother in their novel "Dreams of the Dark."  DC's directive to them wouldn't necessarily mean that was always the case with the TV show, though.

The other questions I have are:  if Art Wallace did change his mind on this regard, did he ever confirm this in an interview - or was he ever even asked about Vicki's parentage? And, finally, did Francis Swann, who is credited with numerous scripts from this period, ever confirm this in an interview? Or another writer, for that matter?  I think this last and third question probably can't be answered as I believe Swann left the show and was not interviewed in DS fandom.

I'm not trying to play the devil's advocate, but I just wonder if there is anything in writing anywhere, where any of these people are concerned.  A rather curious (to me) thought is whether Robert Costello's remarks are so widely known that this is the reason why the "Elizabeth is Vicki's mother" is the prevaiiling view.  I had never heard this anywhere except in the previous online discussion (which I had completely forgotten). And so far in the present discussion, no one else had pointed to Robert Costello as the source or evidence for this point of view.

Again, I'm not trying to argue, because this does seem to make a convincing case - moreso than the evidence from the show itself, though, IMO.  And of course some of the evidence on the show itself is open to interpretation, or else there wouldn't be this discussion.  I'm willing to accept outside evidence if it does truly depict the intentions and agreement of the writers, producers, and directors. And unfortunately, we know that they haven't seen eye-to-eye on all occasions (e.g., Art Wallace & Dan Curtis).  I really don't know anything about Don Costello, and I'm not trying to impugn what he said, just hoping for some confirmation since some questionable things have been related orally (and in print) by various DS alumni ...

[Taeylor Collins]

I was pretty sure it was planned for Victoria to be Elizabeth's daughter.  Thanks for reiterating what I thought were facts.  However, like you said there can be speculation forever because this plotline didn't come to fruition on the screen! Which is terribly terribly sad and the worst dropped plotline on the entire show, in my opinion! I think they should have at least given recasting another shot during the Leviathans [spoiler]rather than killing her off.  Who was the idiot that thought that up?[/spoiler]

[quentincollins]

I have read that DC was in negotiations with AM to return during the Leviathons story, so the events that happened there may have been intended for a re-do of Barnabas rescuing her as he did in 1796. AM ultimately didn't return so that storyline was dropped.
So it's possible that DC didn't intend to leave Vicki's fate as it was. I prefer to think it happened that way. And with all the time travel in DS I like to think Vicki was saved later. I'm hoping that someday Big Finish can get Alexandra to return and do some audio plays as Vicki! Maybe they'll even do a time travel story to another time period and finally let AM play a villain like she wanted. Parallel Time Vicki maybe?

[Taeylor Collins]

I think I posted earlier in this post about how I would have loved Victoria to return to PT instead of the route they went.  However, that is getting a bit off topic.  I like to think that Victoria is Liz's daughter, for some reason I think it fits and warms my heart!