Poll

Do you believe that Elizabeth Collins Stoddard was Victoria Winters' mother?

Yes
29 (74.4%)
No
6 (15.4%)
Undecided
4 (10.3%)

Total Members Voted: 37

Author Topic: Vicki's Mother  (Read 11011 times)

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Offline EmeraldRose

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Re: Vicki's Mother
« Reply #30 on: October 03, 2008, 10:20:05 AM »
I would like to correct my blooper about the wording of the poll. [signerror] It should have said, "Do you believe that Elizabeth Collins Stoddard was Victoria Winters' mother?" Sorry about that. [hall2_rolleyes] Maybe one of our esteemed moderators could correct it. [beg]

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Offline michael c

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Re: Vicki's Mother
« Reply #31 on: October 03, 2008, 09:55:43 PM »
what's interesting about this topic is it's very nature.

that it's all just speculation with many of us using our emotions for two fictitious human beings as a guide.

what's also interesting,in an odd and unsatisfying way,is that the show itself chose not to solve one of it's key mysteries.once it was decided that the show was moving in a new(supernatural)direction this could have been cleared up with a few words.indeed the scenes leading up to vicki and jeff's ill-fated wedding would have been the perfect time and joan bennett certainly played them from a decidedly maternal point of view.but for whatever reason the writers chose to leave this open-ended.

perhaps it's just the destiny of victoria winters to forever be an orphan.it's elemental to the character's nature.
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Offline Philippe Cordier

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Re: Vicki's Mother
« Reply #32 on: October 04, 2008, 01:33:31 AM »
in an odd and unsatisfying way,is that the show itself chose not to solve one of it's key mysteries.once it was decided that the show was moving in a new(supernatural)direction this could have been cleared up with a few words.indeed the scenes leading up to vicki and jeff's ill-fated wedding would have been the perfect time and joan bennett certainly played them from a decidedly maternal point of view.but for whatever reason the writers chose to leave this open-ended.

You make a good point - that the question of Victoria Winter's parentage could have been cleared up, and the time of her wedding would have been a perfect time to do it.

I would ask, though, if every mystery or unexplained event on the show had been explained ... if the show would have been as memorable, or as stimulating to the brain cells.  Would there be as much interesting food for thought and discussion?

One thing that makes DS different from a run-of-the-mill TV show, I think, is the fact that it seems to have deliberately left a number of questions unanswered.  There is ambiguity and room for interpretation, just as one finds in a higher order of literature.

Cassandra Blair, do you recall how we came up with a solution to the question of Victoria Winters' parentage?

I confess I don't remember the details, though I think I transferred and saved those posts on my laptop.  I recall that one aspect to my explanation hinged on the Betty Hanscomb picture and the inspiration I believed the writers (probably Francis Swann) drew from Wilkie Collins' "The Woman in White."


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Offline Midnite

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Re: Vicki's Mother
« Reply #33 on: October 04, 2008, 01:58:23 AM »
Cassandra Blair, do you recall how we came up with a solution to the question of Victoria Winters' parentage?

I confess I don't remember the details, though I think I transferred and saved those posts on my laptop.  I recall that one aspect to my explanation hinged on the Betty Hanscomb picture and the inspiration I believed the writers (probably Francis Swann) drew from Wilkie Collins' "The Woman in White."

See:
Re: Victoria Winters
(All posts on the VantageNet board were, unfortunately, deleted by that host.)

Offline Janet the Wicked

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Re: Vicki's Mother
« Reply #34 on: October 04, 2008, 02:23:32 AM »
I guess we never know...
I get a kick out of these guys who think they're so clean, when all the time they're trying to cover up their dirt.

Offline quentincollins

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Re: Vicki's Mother
« Reply #35 on: October 04, 2008, 02:29:27 AM »
I had heard a theory a long time ago that Betty was Jameson's illigitimate daughter, and that Paul and Betty were Vicki's parents, making Liz  the aunt of Vicki. Liz then sent monthly checks for Vicki's care out of guilt after she thought she killed Paul.
It's an interesting theory, but it doesn't have any real emotional pull on me the way Liz as Vicki 's mother does. The evidence on the show is inconclusive, but between teh evidence in Dreams of the Dark and Return to Collinwood, the opinions of JB and AMI, and my own emotional connection to that relationship, I consider the matter fairly well resolved for me, although I hope Big Finish does an audio down the road to delve further into the mysteries of our Miss Winters ( Dare I hope for AMI  to actually star in an audio?.
I have read that Big Finish considers their audios to be a prequel series to Return to Collinwood. There's nothing that contradicts them from being in the same continuity, RtC just seems to be set 20+ years later. Lara Parker's first novel, which was abridged as an audio book read by Lara Parker by Big Finish, also fits in with the other audio continuity pretty well. He rsecond novel, the Salem Branch, does have events that would make fitting in with the audios more difficult, but if I squint  I can just about reconcile them.
As for Carolyn and Ned, with repeated relistening I rather like them togather. The more mature Ned is nothing like the Ned we saw on tv ( who was either pawing at Sabrina in an incestous manner or screaming at Chris) , the older Ned seems pretty much like what you'd expect form a more mature and settled down Jeff Clark. 30+ years had passed since the end of the series, so the characters have grown and developed new relationships. I can deal with that. I find RtC overall to be an excellent revisitng of those characters. What does drive me crazy with remorse is that Violet Chavez Collins was supposed to be Laura Stockbridge Collins. Oh for what could have been!

Offline EmeraldRose

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Re: Vicki's Mother
« Reply #36 on: October 04, 2008, 09:25:18 AM »
Thank you very much to the moderator who changed the wording of my poll! I have found the slogan, "Ask and ye shall receive," applies here. [hall_wink]

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Offline Miss_Winthrop

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Re: Vicki's Mother
« Reply #37 on: October 04, 2008, 02:08:46 PM »
I don't buy into Liz being Vicki's mother for several reasons.  One, Liz is not going to leave her daughter in a box on the front steps of an orphanage.  Two, Liz is not going to throw a daughter out of the house for any reason like what might have happened because of David.  I think a likely scenario is that Liz grew to womanhood along with the daugher of the Collinwood butler Hanscomb.  The daugher Betty, ended up having an affair with a sea tramp who perhaps also put the moves on Liz at the same time.  Betty had no where to turn so Liz gave her money to go to New York to start a new life for herself and the baby.  Betty left the baby at the orphanage with personal belongings from her life at Collinwood.  The orphange contacted Liz and she provided a monthly supplement for the baby's care at the orphanage.  Betty disappeared into New York never to be seen or heard from again.
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Offline Nelson Collins

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Re: Vicki's Mother
« Reply #38 on: October 04, 2008, 03:02:14 PM »
It's a romantic notion to think that Liz is Vicki's mother and I voted yes in the poll, because I am a softie and sometimes I just like happy endings tied in neat packages (perhaps that one of the reasons I like Charles Delaware Troll's Final year fan fiction so much).

But if I look at it from a more objective viewpoint, I can see that the writers were probably going to go a different way, inasmuch as they ever planned to resolve it.  It's obvious that Liz knows more about Vicki's parentage than she will ever tell, and is trying to hide that from her.  To keep the story going and build suspense, of course the writers are going to give us red herrings: Is Liz her mother? Or does she know who is?  Who is B. Hanscombe? Why is Liz being deliberately obstructive?  To spare Vicki pain or protect the family name?  and what does Jason Maguire know about it all? (I think that was the last gasp of the storyline before the Barnabas story crowded most everything else out).

Another, older thread Midnight very kindly pointed me to posited that Liz' father might have been Vicki's father having dallied with Hanscombe's pretty daughter and got her in trouble.  "Shadows on the Wall" suggested another origin for Vicki (Paul's daughter, IIRC).

Even though the writers seemed to forget the story, it does make a sort of sense not to resolve it.  Vicki has an obsession with her past in particular and the past in general.  That led her into the past and to literally fall in love with the past (in Peter Bradford).  She is rudderless and due to her not having an "anchor" to her present through her personal past, she anchors herself to "a" past, Peter and his past so it becomes natural in a way for her to be far more emotional about Jeff/Peter disappearing and her ardent desire to be with him than she ever was about about Burke's death, and to be desperate to find a way to rejoin Peter.
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Offline quentincollins

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Re: Vicki's Mother
« Reply #39 on: October 04, 2008, 04:55:39 PM »
It is hard to imagine Liz leaving her baby in a box at an orphanage, but consider this would have happpened in the 40's, with Liz probablu under extreme pressure from her parents, and who knows what sort of problems there were with the father. Perhaps Liz was trying to protect Viki from her father, who may have been dangerous, and the possibility seem more likely. LIz did always seem very concerned with the family's honor.
I think it's great that we all can imagine so many different answers to this mystery.

Offline Philippe Cordier

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Re: Vicki's Mother
« Reply #40 on: October 05, 2008, 12:47:28 AM »
I had heard a theory a long time ago that Betty was Jameson's illigitimate daughter, and that Paul and Betty were Vicki's parents, making Liz  the aunt of Vicki. Liz then sent monthly checks for Vicki's care out of guilt after she thought she killed Paul.

Yes, that was the theory I came up with along with Cassandra Blair, which Midnite has kindly provided a link for.  This theory is a bit more elaborate than my original idea, which was a bit simpler but which also satisfies the evidence.  The original idea was first suggested by a now-unknown DS fan named "Bob", although I believe I refined or changed it slightly.  I'll try to reconstruct that scenario briefly based on memory and going over the post that Midnite has provided the link to.

Both my original theory and the more elaborate one with Cassandra Blair take into account the sketch of Betty Hanscomb and references to a butler at Collinwood named Hanscomb; to this I adduced possible inspiration from the 19th century Gothic mystery "The Woman in White," in which the unknown woman of mystery turns out to be the half-sister of the heroine.  The name "Hanscomb" is the key here - it's not a very common name, and seems more than coincidental that the DS writers came up with this name in a mystery that simillarly concerns a young woman's unknown origins and her connection to a family of wealth and prestige.

We know that Elizabeth and Roger's father was Jamison Collins.  In this scenario, Jamison later had an affair with the young daughter of his butler Hanscomb, named Betty.  The affair produced Victoria.  Hence Victoria Winters is a Collins and the younger half-sister of Elizabeth and Roger.  Sam Evans' sketch of Betty clearly resembles Victoria.  Sam most likely knew that Betty Hanscomb, who spent a lot of time at Collinwood, had had an illegitimate daughter and then died young.  When Sam saw how much Victoria looked like his sketch of Betty, he probably guessed that she was Betty's daughter and that the father might have been Jamison Collins - especially knowing that Victoria had been brought to Collinwood by Elizabeth Collins Stoddard.  I believe that all the servants at Collinwood had been fired at about the time of Betty Hanscomb's pregnancy obviously in an effort to stop gossip.

The more elaborate version of this scenario has a couple of things going for it that add interest but aren't really necessary.  This version suggests that Jamison Collins had an affair with a daughter of his butler Hanscomb, and that this affair produced Betty Hanscomb (who obviously did not inherit the Collins name but her mother's name).  Betty Hanscomb is the half sister of Elizabeth and Roger.  Sam Evans' sketch of Betty Hanscomb not only looks like Victoria, but also Elizabeth, which is explained by this scenario.  A further twist is that Victoria Winters was the product of an affair between Betty Hanscomb and Paul Stoddard.  Elizabeth knew of the affair and of her husband's illegitimate daughter (Carolyn's half-sister) and made provisions to support her.  Victoria Winters, then, was a descendant of Jamison Collins and the niece of Elizabeth Collins.  Perhaps this more complex version is more in keeping with the convoluted relationships found in soap opera tradition.

Finally, let me offer this quotation from an interview with Dan Curtis, heard on one of the DVDs.  Mr. Curtis was asked why the question of Victoria Winters' identity was never resolved.  Mr. Curtis responded:

"We never got around to what Vicki's background was, and I never knew it."

I believe this accurately reflects the early days of writing and producing Dark Shadows.  The writers would seem to have been given some guidelines and suggestions, but were free to develop their own ideas too.  It's significant that all of the scripts using my ideas above are attributed to Francis Swann, who was also a novelist.  In my opinion, it was largely in order to satisfy fans that DC decided to legitimize the idea that Elizabeth was Victoria's mother.  I think that was one of the possibilities and may have been the suggestion Joan Bennett followed, but I think that was only one hint among many that was suggested in the early days of the mystery - and there were sure to be many suggestions and red herrings to keep viewers interested.

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Offline Nelson Collins

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Re: Vicki's Mother
« Reply #41 on: October 05, 2008, 01:55:33 PM »
It is hard to imagine Liz leaving her baby in a box at an orphanage
To be a bit pedantic for a moment, it's hard to imagine anyone leaving an infant at the door of an orphanage in winter in New York!  One hopes there was at least a large mail box or the 1940s equivalent to a pet door to slip her in out of the cold! [hall2_grin]

Phillippe, I imagine Jamison might have paid off the Hanscomb's and arranged for them to leave Collinsport, but AIUI, the dismissing of the whole household staff didn't occur until [spoiler]after Elizabeth's poker incident with Paul Stoddard.  [/spoiler]

Off topically regarding Jamison Collins for a moment, apart from establishing him as the father of Liz and Roger, does the show ever reveal anything else about him, when he died etc.?  I'm just trying to place him agewise into the narrative at a point where it would be plausible for him to have fathered Victoria.  By my calculations, he would have been approximately 61-62 at the time.  Oh, dear, I just had this really wicked thought that he might have died while making love to Betty Hanscomb!  [hall2_shocked]

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Offline Miss_Winthrop

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Re: Vicki's Mother
« Reply #42 on: October 05, 2008, 02:02:47 PM »
I'm satisfied with the notion that Victoria is the daughter of Betty Hanscomb.  I rather like the idea of Jamison (Liz & Roger's father) being her father.  Victoria by virture of her birth is an heir to the Collins fortunes.
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Offline Patti Feinberg

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Re: Vicki's Mother
« Reply #43 on: October 05, 2008, 09:12:16 PM »
I rather like the idea of Jamison (Liz & Roger's father) being her father.  Victoria by virture of her birth is an heir to the Collins fortunes.

Miss Wintrop, were this true, Victoria wouldn't have lived long:

a) because of Roger
b) because of the curse placed on anyone Barnabas loves would die

Earlier mentioned, parentage cleared up at her wedding:

I can picture Roger mentioning to Victoria if she were kin of any kind; I love his behavior during these scenes!

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Offline Julianka7

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Re: Vicki's Mother
« Reply #44 on: October 06, 2008, 12:57:29 AM »
I've been rewatching DS from the beginning and just saw the episode
where Vicki finds the Betty Hanscomb portrait. Sam states that he painted
the portrait 25 years ago. He goes on to say 6 month later Betty left town.
And that 5 or 6 months later Betty died. And all this happened long before
Vicki was born.
Another episode that I had forgot about Bill Malloy was drinking and talking
about how 20 years ago he had made a life changing mistake of some sort.
I'm wondering if this had something to do with Vicki?