Vicki's Mother

[Philippe Cordier]

I remember addressing this point in the now long-lost discussion on the old Vantage Net board.  Somewhere in a box of files filled with miscellaneous papers in another house in another state, a printout of that thread may exist - but if I ever find it, it will probably be by accident.  Anyway, I’m trying to remember my thoughts on this.

It may be that if Sam said “25 years ago” he was not only giving a rough estimate (“give or take five years”) but he may also have been trying to throw Vicki off.  When you get to an advanced age (say, over 45 – not saying whether or not I’m there yet), it can be very difficult to place past events accurately.  This may be fudging with what’s stated (“25 years ago”), but if Sam guesses the truth about Victoria, he may not want to be the person responsible for helping her uncover that truth.

Regarding Jamison Collins’ age if he did father Victoria, I remember working that out, and he definitely would have been up there in age, at least in his 60s.  That does give me some pause as to whether he was her father.  Partly because of that, I gravitated more towards the second scenario I outlined, where Jamison fathered Betty Hanscomb, who in turn was Victoria’s mother.

[alwaysdavid]

When Vickie asked anyone who knew Betty if they thought her picture looked like her, they said no, but when Carolyn saw it she thought it was Vickie. 

[Julianka7]

I don't think you can discount Sam's statement of his memory of
when he painted Betty's portrait so easily. And I can't see any
reason for him to lie. With the one exception - [spoiler]his lie about "Burke
driving the car" cover up[/spoiler] - Sam seems to be a very truthful person.

And to point in the episodes where I am now watching - the 2
people (Sam and Maggie) besides Vicki who have seen the portrait
have said it looks like her. Sam points out that Vicki looks like the
portrait. Around the nose and mouth.

[Philippe Cordier]

I can see every reason why someone might want to steer another person away from something they suspect about the person's background that has been hushed up.  Unless Sam or that person is a gossip, which I don't think fits his character.  The 1960s wasn't the Age of Ophrah (confessional television) when everyone feels comfortable airing every aspect of their personal life in front of a national audience.  People had a greater sense of privacy then and respect for letting sleeping dogs lie.  Maybe if Vicki pllied Sam with a few drinks, he'd be more forthcoming.   

One question I have is whether Victoria's age is established.  In the 1991 Revival Series, which I'm currently viewing, it's stated in the first or second episode that Victoria Winters is "a 25 year old girl."  Was the Victoria Winters of the original series stated to be younger than that?

[Mysterious Benefactor]

Was the Victoria Winters of the original series stated to be younger than that?

Yes - when the series begins Vicki is 20.

[Nelson Collins]

Sam is basically a truthful person, but he is also a drunk.  He's been drinking steadily for ten years.  And while he's been drinking to forget something else altogether, I think he might just be legitimately hazy on the exact time he painted that portrait.

[Nelson Collins]

Here's another weird idea that's come to me:  Vicki looks like Betty, and Betty is a diminutive of Elizabeth, so another explanation might be that Betty Hanscomb is Liz.  She used that name as an alias when she was hanging out in town and didn't want folks to know she was a Collins.  Liz is the one who sat for the portrait of Betty, and perhaps it was "Betty" who then got into some trouble and gave up her child for adoption.  Liz married Paul Stoddard soon after, and "Betty" left town and "died."

BTW, I like Julianka's theory.  It would be really cool if Bill Malloy was Vicki's Dad [spoiler]and later returns from the grave not only to avenge his murder but save the life of his daughter.  Maybe that is why Victoria (after David) is the first resident of modern day Collinwood to see and communicate with ghosts.[/spoiler]

I've always thought he had more than a professional regard for Liz, and what if in their youths Bill and Ned Calder were suitors of Liz?

[Cassandra Blair]

That's an interesting theory, Nelson Collins! The first time I saw that early episode in which Vicki found the portrait of Betty Hanscomb, I wondered if Sam was telling tales, because the drawing looked like Liz as well as Vicki, and Betty is a diminutive of Elizabeth. I wondered at the time if maybe Sam was keeping Liz's secret because he'd been in some way involved. Maybe he acted as a go-between for Liz/Betty and Bill Malloy?

But, going along with what Philippe Cordier mentioned about our earlier take on Vicki's parentage, I do have to wonder if Betty Hanscomb wasn't Liz's half sister and Vicki's mother.

All of the theories advanced here carry some degree of believability. I really wish the writers had revealed the truth of Victoria's background during the run of the show, but since they didn't, we now have a really interesting topic to bandy about!

[michael c]

incidentally...

the portrait of betty handscomb doesn't just "look like" vicki but is in fact a line-for-line copy of a publicity photograph of alexandra moltke that i bought at the fest a few years ago.the dealer told me it was probably taken in 1965/6 just around the time she was cast in the series.

[michael c]

another thought...

it's interesting that,as philippe pointed out,even dan curtis himself did not know how this particular plot was to be played out.perhaps soap operas don't plan themselves out so far in advance.they open with a series of storylines and they work themselves out over time dependant on a number of factors.this one,alas,was not to be solved but perhaps that adds to the mystery.

i believe that mysterious mentioned that in the 1991 series it was eventually to be revealed that vicki was in fact elizabeth's daughter but the series was cancelled before that could take place.again perhaps it is simply the destiny of this character to forever be this orphaned waif.it's elemental to her nature.

to get very off-topic the speculative,emotional nature of this conversation reminds me of something else that is endlessly bandied about...the old "did barnabas love julia?" chestnut.

now of course barnabas could not have in fact loved julia because they are not real people with real emotions.they are just characters played by two actors who were handed scripts every morning and asked to recite them.but within those paramaters they were very talented actors who brought alot of subtlety and nuance to the work and thus all of the speculation and emotionalism.

as scripted,barnabas never in fact professed love for julia.he professed love for lots of other women...josette,victoria,roxanne and even his nemesis angelique...but not julia.he expressed other emotions...hatred,reliance,affection,...but never love.

his expressed love for angelique,which infuriates many fans,actually took place within the scripts and thus must be accepted as "cannon" no matter how much we dislike or want to disbelieve it.it happened within the paramaters the show set for itself.it sucks but in effect it's "true".

however since a profession of "love" never gets scripted between barnabas and julia it becomes the nuance of the actors and it's implications that lends itself to so much interpretation.

much the same way that the performances of joan bennett and alexandra moltke lend themselves to all of the speculation in this topic.

[Angelique Wins]

 

I have to agree with EmeraldRose and lots of others on this thread.  I totally agree that Victoria is Elizabeth's daughter.  I can see some of us think alike along those lines.  In my own DS fan fiction, I've delved into that subject (with more to come).  I've used the Hanscomb name, a soldier, and WWII (specifically the END as in VE Day).  I've also written several letters that are revealed in the course of events which shed light on certain questions.

I must admit, Elizabeth's coldness to Victoria on several occasions messes up my perfect scenario, but I chalk it up to years of seclusion, guilt, and various other Collins family traits.  If Elizabeth was willing to have Victoria so close, yet wasn't quite ready to reveal all, she may have felt backed up against a wall with all of Victoria's questions, and dug in her heels in true Collins fashion.


 

[alwaysdavid]

The writers would want to throw in some red herrings to the mystery of Vickie's mother being Elizabeth to keep up the suspense. Liz  didn't really begin to trust Vickie enough to confide in her until the Jason storyline and then there is the question once she told Vickie after all this time how would she react and would she want to tell people and stir up gossip about the Collins family.  All these things should weigh on Liz's mind.   

[Taeylor Collins]

 

Some great theories cousins!  I had also thought that Betty Hanscombe could have been Liz as a young woman!

[Miss_Winthrop]

I do seem to recall a scene where Liz opens the front door at Collinwood and Sam is standing there.  There seems to be a slight hesitation between the both of them as if a memory of something in the past passed before them but then they both immediately reverted to people who are barely acquaintances reacting to one another.  Maybe my mind is playing tricks on me.

[Midnite]

I do seem to recall a scene where Liz opens the front door at Collinwood and Sam is standing there.  There seems to be a slight hesitation between the both of them as if a memory of something in the past passed before them but then they both immediately reverted to people who are barely acquaintances reacting to one another.  Maybe my mind is playing tricks on me.

That did happen.  Their face to face was a cliffhanger, which might explain the hesitation you're remembering.  When the scene resumes, they introduce themselves to each other and Sam reveals that it had been more than 18 years since they'd met, and as you said, both behaved as mere acquaintances.  It did not play out at all as if Sam had played an important role in Liz's past.