How Did Angelique Get Her Powers?

[Philippe Cordier]

Besides, in the 18th century, wouldn't one be considered a woman, not a young girl at 17 or 18?

A young woman, even in her 20s, in the position of a serving girl, would commonly be referred to as a "girl."

[Midnite]

I'm sorry you've been sick with the flu, Midnite.  Hope you feel better soon.   

Thanks.

Could the difference in interpretations be influenced perhaps by exposure to outside information, fan interpretations, etc.?

If you mean me, then no.  I read the books you mentioned but I'm not confusing them, I promise.

To me most of the things you quote suggest that Angelique had been in service to the DuPres family for an unspecified amount of time -- perhaps a couple of years -- enough time to know Josette's wardrobe, beaux, etc.

Like you said-- different interpretations.  I think the animosity that built within Angelique isn't from a mere couple of years-- she told Barnabas she HATED Josette-- but that's my opinion.  We also seem to disagree on the significance of a few adjectives (child and very young) and I can live with that.

Since Angelique's tearful, on-her-knees "performance" for the Rev. Trask contradicts even Countess de Pres' remarks concerning Angelique's mother, I wouldn't put a lot of trust in what Angelique tells him.  Her whole performance is a lie, and her presentation of herself as possibly an orphan (which is where I assume that you are getting that idea) seems more like a bid to elicit a sympathetic reaction from Trask than a factual autobiography

I knew you were going to say that. I do put stock in that part of what was said to Trask.  Angelique knew perfectly well what was at stake (why else would she have painstakingly hidden her witchery from anyone not under her power?), and it wouldn't bode well for her if Trask spoke to the duPres family about her a second time and found a discrepancy in her personal history.  I also don't see how it contradicts Grayson's dialogue.

Neither Countess du Pres nor anyone else says that Angelique was an orphan when she was hired into the DuPres household.  Entering into service with a family at a young age does not imply that she was an orphaned child.

Yes, the word orphan was never used to describe Angelique on the series, but Natalie did speak of her mother in past tense.

Anyway, I think that what Nicholas Blair said to Cassandra later in the story (that she was born in 1774) holds more weight in the Miranda/Valerie/Angelique discussion than all the clues that we have about Angelique from 1795 put together.

[Philippe Cordier]

Anyway, I think that what Nicholas Blair said to Cassandra later in the story (that she was born in 1774) holds more weight in the Miranda/Valerie/Angelique discussion than all the clues that we we have about Angelique from 1795 put together.

I agree with you -- this is a clear, unambiguous statement ... a specific date is given, so it doesn't seem open to various interpretations.

The quote, as you say, is from the later Cassandra storyline.  As such, it would seem to be a clarifying point on the writers' part, looking back at previous information from an earlier storyline and providing a sort of summarizing statement.  As such, we could then ignore previous inconsistencies within a previous storyline and accept this later "definitive" statement.

That is, until a later reappraisal is made, and a new "definitive" version is given.  As I see it, 1840 is the last storyline to address the matter within the "Dark Shadows" canon (i.e., the original TV series) ... and therefore I give the 1840 version precedence over previously given information (when there are contradictions), accepting it as the "latest thinking "  -- the final "official word" or version of events.  Of course, the 1840 version of events might have been reappraised had the series continued.  (One would hope that, had that happened, an attempt would then have been made to iron out the contradictions rather than presenting yet another alternative ...).

Since that didn't happen, I accept the last version we are given.  I admit, though, that 1840 does not spell out exactly what happened, specific dates, etc.

[Midnite]

Whoa!  All this is new since I first read the post...

In Thursday's episode, Angelique told her gypsy servant that immediately after testifying against Judah Zachary, she had been granted "safe passage out of the country."  I think we are to see Miranda in 1692 as a fairly young girl, a teenager.  Leaving the American colonies as a young girl in 1692 and next appearing as a young girl in Martinique in the 1790s suggests to me that soon after leaving the country Angelique either made a pact with the devil who granted her eternal life, or, better -- as some later 1840 dialogue suggests, she may already have learned the secrets of eternal existence -- or was able to deduce them -- from the occult knowledge she had learned from Judah Zachary.  I find it tempting to think that Angelique joined the Du Pres household exactly 100 years after she left Maine, i.e. in 1692, appearing the same age as she did when she had gained the secret of eternal life ... let's say she was 17, for the sake of argument.  At that point she may somehow have gracefully aged naturally during her say, three years of service with the family, to her present young womanhood.

But Angelique died in 1796. She had powers, yes, but was mortal.

Speculation?  Interpretation?  Maybe ... but so are the scenarios set forth by Ms. Resch and Ms. Robin, et al.  My version would fit the facts as well as other interpretations, but have the advantage of harmonizing the 1840 storyline which other interpreations conveniently ignore.

I thought you'd read Warren Oddsson's essay.

An earlier poster didn't seem to understand why I would lend more weight to this later storyline's version of events, and I don't know what more to say without repeating myself.  The DS storylines progressed and changed, and when one version of events is later substituted for an earlier version (think of the early Collins ancestors and history referred to in the first few months of the series that we clearly must "forget" later) I think we're meant to accept the later version.

I think you give the writers too much credit.  Angelique's previous history consistently made sense, then we jumped to 1840 and it's as if they stopped caring about what came before.  And for me, that includes how her story concludes.

Since so many people are willing to accept fan fiction, statements in interviews, skits, and novels written decades after the show, I don't understand the problem with going back to the show itself to see how the writers at the time either resolved things or the state of events that they finally left us with on the show itself.  What I don't understand is the vast majority of fandom (at least those expressing themselves on this forum) just ignoring what we're told in 1840.  It's as if 1840, clearly a major storyline within the series, holds no weight.  Even the series writers Lara Parker consulted with (I don't have the book with me so I don't remember which ones she consulted) were seemed unaware of the 1840 storyline events.  That's what I don't understand.

 

[Philippe Cordier]

I hope my argumentative tone doesn't seem like I'm bashing our fabulous monitor here (especially when she's been sick!    )... (I really do appreciate all the time you took to view those episodes, Midnite ... hopefully you're much better now.    )

Nevertheless, I'll proceed with my contrariness ...

But first, I have an accurate quote that I'm afraid I only paraphrased earlier -- I enclosed it in quotes because I thought it was verbatim, but I re-watched the scene and found I had one word wrong.  Anyway, here's the entire quote of what Angelique says:

"Shortly after the trial of Judah Zachary in 1692, I was given safe conduct out of the country, and Judah was beheaded."

BTW, in the same paragraph, I meant to say "1792", not "1692."   

... suggests to me that soon after leaving the country Angelique either made a pact with the devil who granted her eternal life, or, better -- as some later 1840 dialogue suggests, she may already have learned the secrets of eternal existence -- or was able to deduce them -- from the occult knowledge she had learned from Judah Zachary.

But Angelique died in 1796. She had powers, yes, but was mortal.

Hmmm, you have a point there.  But to continue in my argumentative mode ... Angelique did resurrect fairly soon after her 1795 death (in the courtroom scene to testify against Victoria Winters), so I'm not so sure that she wasn't immortal to start with.  True, she seemed to die when Barnabas strangled her in the tomb ... but that just makes us think she's finished/defeated/dead.  She doesn't die and come back as a ghost, which is what we'd expect to happen if she were an ordinary mortal -- instead, she re-appears in a corporeal, yet supernatural, form.  This suggests to me that she may have been immortal all along, or at least was in some state where she was primed to pop back from the dead contrary to the ordinary laws of physics ...

I thought you'd read Warren Oddsson's essay.

Sorry, I don't understand what this means.  I'm not familiar with the essay you mention ...

Hmmm, how am I to interpret that last (visual) comment?  I have had a feeling from comments made by various posters that many viewers go with the earlier version of Angelique (1795) because they like that storyline better.  It seems a number of people (a majority?) don't like 1840's revisionism, so they choose to reject it.

For the sake of consistency, though, should we not have some sort of rule of thumb for how we choose between two conflicting versions of events -- something that happens throughout the series as writers change and modify "facts" that we were previously given.  I would propose that we are meant to accept the most recent version -- whether we like that version or not -- whether it's who built Collinwood in what year, who married or did not marry Josette, what Victoria Winters' fate was, etc.

[Philippe Cordier]

I'm not sure if my cloudy, sleep-deprived mind is resulting in bizarre posts.  If so, just disregard anything that doesn't make sense ... 

I think this thread ended up being more about reconciling (or not) the 1795 and 1840 backgrounds of Angelique.

To address the subject heading, here was the most recent relevant information about HOW Angelique became a witch, according to the 1840 storyline (which some viewers choose to reject).

Lazlo:  "So you became what you are because of Judah Zachary."

Angelique:  "Yes, his powers are awesome."

That's a bit sketchy, but it does indicate that Angelique was an ordinary girl who became a witch -- and immortal -- "because of" Judah Zachary.

I think Midnite quoted some more relevant material in an earlier post, which hasn't occurred yet on the show, that's in the same vein.

It would seem that, according to 1840 Miranda did not become immortal until sometime after Judah Zachary's beheading, though.

As I posted above, I feel this point actually is compatible with the the 1795 events, too.

[Philippe Cordier]

I have completely revised my post from yesterday (two posts above this).  The modified post expresses better what I meant to say.

[Philippe Cordier]

I'm sure people are tired of this topic by now.

So, this isn't really on the topic, but is related in a way.

I recently ordered a book from England.  I got it today, and the mailing address was ... Bedford.  Seems too closely related to everything happening on DS and discussed here to be only a coincidence ...

 

[wes]

  I think they mean Bedford, NY.  It was founded in the 1680s.  It might have been named after an English town.  A lot of those New England towns were named after English towns or Indian tribes.  Bedford wasn't originally part of NY (in case there are sticklers for what New England means out there).

[Philippe Cordier]

I think they mean Bedford, NY.  It was founded in the 1680s.  It might have been named after an English town.  A lot of those New England towns were named after English towns or Indian tribes.  Bedford wasn't originally part of NY (in case there are sticklers for what New England means out there).

In one episode, I think another town was named where everything with Judah Zachary happened, and that town (whose name I couldn't make out) was said to be "near Bedford."

[Raineypark]

Wouldn't Bedford, New Hampshire be more likely than Bedford, New York?  Certainly more likely than Bedford, Virginia, or Bedford, Texas, no? 

[Gothick]

I'm sure that the Bedford named in those 1840 episodes was meant to be a Maine town or village near C'port.  Julia travels there and back within the space of an afternoon and evening, so I sort of imagine it being right next to C'port--perhaps on the other side from where they situate Rockport, a neighboring town of which we do hear quite a bit over the years.

I don't have a map of Maine handy, so can't tell whether there are actual towns that bear the names Rockport and Bedford in Maine. We have both here in Mass.  The town names tend to repeat through the New England states--Salem, Plymouth, etc.  You get the drill.

G.

[wes]

  After searching around for Bedfords, I'm changing my vote.  Bedford, Mass is the town mentioned in "Mr. Juggins" site & that means that's probably the one on the show.  The Bedford, NY one had an interesting history (I found, on the web) & fit nicely with the dates on the show.  It used to be Bedford, CT (but those states changed borders).  There seem to have been a lot of Bedfords!

[Philippe Cordier]

Note Angelique's words to Barnabas in Monday's (?) first episode.

-- Judah Zachary "made" her what she is (a witch)

-- in exchange for her testimony, she was assisted in leaving the country and went to the West Indies

-- from there she eventually went to Martinique, where she "met Josette"

No mention of having died and reincarnated in the interim.

Also, no mention made of having gone to Europe (a possibility I suggested) 

Of course, she might have left out a few minor details when she related the "Cliffs Notes" version of her past to Barnabas.   

[dom]

And all this time it was all right there in KLS's DS almanac. She described Miranda as a member of Judah's Z's coven who later changed her name to Angelique. I guess in this case, Kate was right. Now we know how Ange got her powers too. Puzzle solved. Case closed. No?