Author Topic: How Did Angelique Get Her Powers?  (Read 6116 times)

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Offline Cassandra

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Re:How Did Angelique Get Her Powers?
« Reply #15 on: November 04, 2003, 08:36:16 AM »
Everyone has such interesting comments here and I love hearing all the different opinons on this subject.

  IMO, Im still leaning towards the reincarnation theory though because I had always believed that Angelique from 1795 was nothing more than a mortal woman who practiced witchcraft.  It's true yes that she had some remarkable powers but IMO her best powers didn't come through until after she had died when Barnabas had strangled her in the Masoleum room.  One feat she was able to accomplish after being killed was the ability to "appear" and "disappear" at will.  She certainly couldn't do this before as Im sure it would have come in mighty handy for her when she was in that Masoleum room with Barnabas.

  All this would lead me to believe that Angelique from 1795 was mortal.   Now, IMO, had she have been the same Miranda from the 1600's she would have had to have been immortal to be able to live that long, and yet she wasn't immortal as shown in 1795.   Once she had died however, she was able to accomplish so many other different supernatural things as shown in all the other storylines in which she appeared in.   Even Judah wasn't able to accomplish anything until after he had found a host body to possess and we are led to believe that he is way more powerful than she is.

It's been so long since I've watched this part of the story so it's quite possible that Angelique herself can lend some more insight into this question later on in the storyline.

Cassandra
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Offline Cassandra Blair

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Re:How Did Angelique Get Her Powers?
« Reply #16 on: November 05, 2003, 03:36:46 PM »
Have to say, I'm still down with the reincarnation theory, too.  It just makes more sense to me somehow.  And while there does appear to be some evidence from the show that supports Miranda actually living all those years between 1692 and 1795, there also seems to be at least the implication that Angelique was Miranda's reincarnation.  And although 1840 came later in the series, that doesn't mean what was established in that timeline was any more or less valid than what was said earlier on the show.

The Countess' comments that she had known Angelique as a young girl, and known her mother too just don't jibe with the Miranda-is-Angelique theory, IMHO.  If you believe that the Countess' memory hadn't been magically altered, it seems a stretch to think that Natalie would make a distiction between Angelique at age 21 or so in 1795, and Angelique in say, 1792 when she would have been 17 or 18.  That's only three years, yet what Natalie said implies that she's known Angelique for longer than that.  Besides, in the 18th century, wouldn't one be considered a woman, not a young girl at 17 or 18?

This kind of reminds me of the "is Vicki Liz's daughter?" thread a few weeks back.  It was just never made clear (canonically speaking) what the truth was.  This leaves it all up to us as the fans to speculate and discuss.  Like Cassandra said above, it's super interesting to hear all the theories.  Each person can decide what they think, and that becomes the truth for them - which is a bit like life, I guess.

I did wonder if anyone knew this: although Miranda was clearly part of Judah's coven, was it stated for sure that she had any supernatural powers in 1692?  If there wasn't any reincarnation, maybe Miranda spent 100 years acquiring powers and/or selling her soul.  And whatever became of her mysterious, theoretical mother Mrs. Duval?

I guess it's totally up for grabs at this point!  :-
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Offline Midnite

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Re:How Did Angelique Get Her Powers?
« Reply #17 on: November 05, 2003, 06:27:50 PM »
I did wonder if anyone knew this: although Miranda was clearly part of Judah's coven, was it stated for sure that she had any supernatural powers in 1692?  If there wasn't any reincarnation, maybe Miranda spent 100 years acquiring powers and/or selling her soul.

Yes, it was.  Since the following dialogue hasn't yet aired during the current run, it's enclosed in spoiler space.

#1196
[spoiler]GERARD/JUDAH:  I gave you powers.  I gave you powers, my dear, when I first met you.  You were so young and a sweet girl and I taught you everything.

VALERIE/MIRANDA:  But I've learned more since.

GERARD/JUDAH:  I don't think so...

later...

GERARD/JUDAH:  I, Judah Zachery, take away the powers I once bestowed upon you and return you to the human state from whence you came.  Let it be done![/spoiler]
#1197
[spoiler]VALERIE to JUDAH:  You bewitched me and I remained a witch until last night when you took away the powers that you had given me.[/spoiler]

I completely agree with wes that reincarnation is a recurrent theme on DS, and with wes and others that this theory would make sense, especially in light of previous references.  But there was no mention made of reincarnation in regard to Valerie/Miranda-- it was never stated-- and I feel that the writers never even intimated it.  And the dialogue in ep. #1173, when Valerie tells Julia about her life as Miranda, and in #1197, when Valerie tells Judge Vail that she knew Judah Zachery intimately, lead me to believe that what was being potrayed was an Angelique that had a continuous existence between 1692 and 1840. And THAT, along with the fact that she would even be on Earth in 1840, chucks Angelique's previous history right out the [tower room] window.

Quote
I guess it's totally up for grabs at this point! :-

Yeah, lucky for us!  ;)

Offline Cassandra Blair

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Re:How Did Angelique Get Her Powers?
« Reply #18 on: November 05, 2003, 09:23:35 PM »
Cool, Midnite.  I had forgotten about the info you pointed out.  Starting to feel swayed to the Miranda-is-Angelique camp, at least in terms of the reality set forth in 1840.  You do have to wonder though, because it does seem contradictory to what came before.  Still, that's not the first time (or, I would imagine the last time) that the Dark Shadows writers would step all over the continuity of the show.

Another theory can still be advanced.  With all this time jumping and the changing of history, it's arguable that the 1840 Barnabas and Julia visit is some kind of parallel time.  In fact, it has to be a parallel version of history when compared to the 1970 they left behind.  The Roxanne of 1970 was a vampire.  In the 1840 in which Barnabas and Julia are involved, Roxanne is destroyed, so she cannot have existed in 1970.  Yet both of them knew her in 1970, so they must have come from a parallel version of that year, or this must not be the original 1840.  Wouldn't they create a parallel universe by changing history?

And, more apropos the subject of this thread:

[spoiler]This opens up the possibility that the Angelique they meet in 1840 is NOT the one they've met at any other time.  In fact, given what happens with her later in the storyline she CAN'T be the same woman.  I mean, the stuff with Cassandra and the Leviathans and in 1897, Barnabas and Julia (and later Stokes) remember that, so as far as they're concerned it really happened.  But this Angelique, we know will never experience those things with them, so this must be some kind of parallel time, right?  I mean somewhere, in some reality, there must still be an Angelique who lived on after 1840 in order for her to show up at Collinwood again in 1897, 1968 & 1970.[/spoiler]

The possibilities are really mind-boggling, and I've managed to confuse myself.  Wait, should this be a new topic?  :P
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Offline Mysterious Benefactor

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Re:How Did Angelique Get Her Powers?
« Reply #19 on: November 05, 2003, 10:20:50 PM »
along with the fact that she would even be on Earth in 1840, chucks Angelique's previous history right out the [tower room] window.

I could be completely off here because I haven't watched DS (except for a few special episodes here and there) since 1997, and with so much story it's nearly impossible to remember it all in detail, but I began to wonder: Did we ever learn with absolute certainty that Nicholas and Angelique hooked up in 1796 and she went directly from 1796 to 1968 and her Cassandra persona? Or is this, like so many other things, something we've all generally assumed?

As we know, prior to the 1840 storyline Angelique's timeline goes from 1795/96 to 1968, where she's first Cassandra and then Angelique the vamp; she betrays Nicholas and is sent by Diablos back to 1796, where Ben torches her in the tower room; Quentin and Evan summon her to 1897; she remains flitting about the world doing whatever until she surfaces on Little Windward Island as Mrs. Sky Runson in 1970; and from there we have no idea where she might have gone because she's simply never seen again in the present after the conclusion of Leviathans.

However, if there's any possibility that Angelique and Nicholas didn't meet up until some point after 1840, the idea that she continued to make pilgrimages to the mausoleum between 1796 and 1840 wouldn't actually alter her timeline in any way. And it would make perfect sense that in 1840 she has no knowledge of the future because so far as she's concerned none of the events that we've seen taken place (1968/banishment to 1796/1897/1970) have happened for her yet.

Offline Gothick

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Re:How Did Angelique Get Her Powers?
« Reply #20 on: November 05, 2003, 11:14:35 PM »
There is a line of dialogue in Cassandra's very first episode in 1968 where she is talking to Barn's portrait and she informs him that she would never have found out that he had escaped her curse, if it had not been for Victoria Winters' time trip to 1795.

That's really all the info we are given.  It seems to be implied that Ange is working through a noncorporeal form, first through her portrait, then possessing Roger, until she (we presume from dialogue many weeks later between Cass and Nicky) she makes a "bargain" with Nicholas and Diabolos/Balberith and is able to return in flesh form as Cassandra.  I also recall a line or two about how much Cassandra is enjoying being in a body again--it may have been one of Nicholas' comments about why she is so obviously dragging her feet.

FWIW, I recall that at the time of the original b'cast, I simply accepted that the Angelique who appeared in 1840 was somehow the "original" Angelique who lacked knowledge of the future because for her, it simply had not happened yet.  I was never one of those who kept DS diaries, so a lot of the inconsistencies I notice watching it on VHS as an adult went right over my head at the time.

G.

Offline Midnite

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Re:How Did Angelique Get Her Powers?
« Reply #21 on: November 05, 2003, 11:22:16 PM »
I began to wonder: Did we ever learn with absolute certainty that Nicholas and Angelique hooked up in 1796 and she went directly from 1796 to 1968 and her Cassandra persona? Or is this, like so many other things, something we've all generally assumed?

Hmmm.  The last we saw of Angelique in the 1795 story, she was a ghost haunting Ben and Vicki until the latter was hanged.  Yes, it's only assumed that she went directly to 1968 to become Cassandra but if she had instead hung around wherever it is that ghosts hang out, I don't get how she could interrrupt her travels every year to return to Collinsport to check on Barnabas' coffin if she wasn't corporeal.  Anybody?

Offline Mysterious Benefactor

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Re:How Did Angelique Get Her Powers?
« Reply #22 on: November 06, 2003, 12:11:39 AM »
if she had instead hung around wherever it is that ghosts hang out, I don't get how she could interrrupt her travels every year to return to Collinsport to check on Barnabas' coffin if she wasn't corporeal.

Well, we know Angelique could turn corporeal when the need arose because she was certainly corporeal when she made her surprise appearance at Vicki's trial. Of course, that was only for a limited time. But perhaps she eventually learned had to stay corporeal. Nicholas may have been, for whatever reason(s), unable to send Cassandra in corporeal form to 1968, so that may be why she had to first arrive in the form of Angelique's portrait.

What is unfortunate is that Angelique's history with Laszlo was so underdeveloped. If we'd been given more info about their time together, perhaps they'd be no need to speculate..But then, perhaps the writers intentionally left us with little info because either they didn't want to address the matter themselves, or they wanted the audience to come up with its own explanation.  ;)

Offline Miss_Winthrop

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Re:How Did Angelique Get Her Powers?
« Reply #23 on: November 06, 2003, 02:56:55 AM »

 :) By the way, stay tuned for Lara's new book for more in this vein!

I'm really looking forward to the new book!! Any word yet on when it's being released? Lara Parker mentioned it (I think) at the 2000 LA DS Fest.  The theme will have something to do with the Salem witch trials, teenagers from the 1960's. Of course  :-* Barnabas will be in it. [blackbat]

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Offline wes

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Re:How Did Angelique Get Her Powers?
« Reply #24 on: November 06, 2003, 04:55:12 AM »
 8) The new Lara Parker DS novel is supposed to be out in 2004.  I would think would have been a good idea to have in on the shelves this Christmas, though. 

Offline Gothick

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Re:How Did Angelique Get Her Powers?
« Reply #25 on: November 06, 2003, 04:08:04 PM »
But who will the publisher be?  surely not HarperCollins.

G.

Offline Mark Rainey

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Re:How Did Angelique Get Her Powers?
« Reply #26 on: November 06, 2003, 06:27:40 PM »
The last I heard -- and this was a long while back -- that Tor Books would be putting it out as a trade paperback. Beyond that, though, they don't plan any further DS books; or if they do, they want to have them written only by the stars of the show. While I think Lara has a good thing going, as a writer, I can't say I'm thrilled by the prospect of being pushed out of the roster by someone who has no prior track record -as- a writer.

However, the Tor deal may or may not still be in the bargain. Things may have changed in recent months.

--Mark

Offline Raineypark

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Re:How Did Angelique Get Her Powers?
« Reply #27 on: November 06, 2003, 06:46:02 PM »
Mark, you must want to scream every time you walk into a bookstore and see books "written" by any and everyone other than an actual writer.  Pop stars, law enforcement people, butlers, soldiers,.....anyone can cut a book deal...except someone who's actually written a book!  >:(
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Offline Midnite

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Re:How Did Angelique Get Her Powers?
« Reply #28 on: November 08, 2003, 06:13:30 AM »
I have to confess that I do not remember a single instance in the series itself where it is said that Angelique and Josette grew up together.  I know this is the view taken by Marcy Robin and Kathleen Resch in their excellent "Island of Ghosts," as well as picked up by Ms. Parker in her novel.  It's possible that I could have missed these lines on the show somewhere along the way, but are you able to pinpoint specific episodes?

My first reaction to your request-- ACK!

But I was home with the flu today and pretty useless to do much else, so I managed to pinpoint several, but not all, the scenes.  I think you can get a good enough idea from these, however, that Josette and an orphaned Angelique grew up close together despite their different stations-- perhaps much, much too close.


#371 - Angelique has caused Barnabas to choke but feigns concern as she hugs Josette and offers to pray with her.  She later suggests the medal of St. Pierre in order to send Josette away so that she can be alone with Barnabas to torment him some more.


#373 - Angelique tries on Josette's Parisian-made hat and tells Ben, "She'll never miss it.  She's got lots."


#374 - Ben chastises Angelique for helping herself to Josette's perfume, and she replies, "Why not?  I've worn her clothes, stolen her suitors."


#380 - When Josette turns down her servant's wedding gift, Natalie reminds her, "Angelique has served you well."


#387 - Joshua informs Trask that Angelique "belongs to the duPres family."

The interrogation follows:
TRASK:  Have you been baptized?
ANGELIQUE:  No sir.
TRASK:  Why not?
ANGELIQUE:  My mother and father died when I was very young.
TRASK:  Why haven't the duPres family had you baptized?
ANGELIQUE:  I don't know sir.
TRASK:  I think you do know!


#393 - Naomi and Natalie are trying to guess the identity of the witch.  Naomi asks, "What about Angelique?" and Natalie replies, "It would make her more interesting.  But I think no.  I've known her ever since she was an uninteresting child."

Later¢â‚¬¦
Angelique tells Josette that Barnabas proposed to her.  Stunned, Josette tells her to stop packing because there's no need for her to care for her any longer.


#403 - Barnabas is furious with Angelique for what she did to Jeremiah, Sarah, and Josette; regarding the latter, she tells him, "I didn't want it to be so.  I was so sure I could change it.  I hated her.  For once, I would have something that belonged to her."


#443 - Peter asks Natalie what Angelique knew about witchcraft.  She answers, "Nearly everyone on the island knows something about it.  I never paid very much attention to her.  I hired her because she was very young and I felt sorry for her.  Her mother was not, shall we put it kindly, respectable.  She had a reputation for being a healer, she used herbs¢â‚¬¦ (PETER:  And potions?)  Yes.  Angelique was embarrassed by that though she and her mother were very close."

M.

Offline Philippe Cordier

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Re:How Did Angelique Get Her Powers?
« Reply #29 on: November 09, 2003, 02:08:04 AM »
I'm sorry you've been sick with the flu, Midnite.  Hope you feel better soon.   :)

..............

I have to say that I'm baffled by the majority of the references you've painstakingly detailed.  I've seen/heard all of these scenes in two viewings now, and except for the "uninteresting child" quote (which I've discussed), I don't see how the other references would lead viewers to conclude that Angelique grew up with Josette from childhood.  That thought never occurred to me in my two viewings of the 1795 storyline.

Could the difference in our interpretations be influenced perhaps by exposure to outside information, i.e. forum discussions, fan fiction, etc.?  To me most of the things you quote suggest that Angelique had been in service to the DuPres family for an unspecified amount of time -- perhaps a couple of years -- enough time to know Josette's wardrobe, beaux, etc., and time enough for them to form a bond (albeit a deceitful one on Angelique's part).  All of that could conceivably have occurred in less than a year's time (I'm reminded of a true story of a female scam artist I saw on "Unsolved Mysteries," who managed to gain the confidence and intimate trust of other women in an amazingly short period of time, then promptly split with their bank accounts, jewels, etc.  The victims all said they felt this woman was the closest person in their lives, etc., and all this usually happened within 6 mos.!)

Since Angelique's tearful, on-her-knees "performance" for the Rev. Trask contradicts even Countess du Pres' remarks concerning Angelique's mother, I wouldn't put a lot of trust in what Angelique tells him.  Her whole performance is a lie, and her presentation of herself as possibly an orphan (which is where I assume that you are getting that idea) seems more like a bid to elicit a sympathetic reaction from Trask than a factual recounting of her autobiography.

Neither Countess du Pres nor anyone else says that Angelique was an orphan when she was hired into the DuPres household.  Entering into service with a family at a young age does not imply that she was an orphaned child.  Plenty of families in European and American history have sent their children to work.

In Thursday's episode, Angelique told her gypsy servant that immediately after testifying against Judah Zachary, she had been granted "safe passage out of the country."  I think we are to see Miranda in 1692 as a fairly young girl, a teenager.  Leaving the American colonies as a young girl in 1692 and next appearing as a young girl in Martinique in the 1790s suggests to me that soon after leaving the country Angelique either made a pact with the devil who granted her eternal life, or, better -- as some later 1840 dialogue suggests, she may already have learned the secrets of eternal existence -- or was able to deduce them -- from the occult knowledge she had learned from Judah Zachary.  I find it tempting to think that Angelique joined the Du Pres household exactly 100 years after she left Maine, i.e. in 1692, appearing the same age as she did when she had gained the secret of eternal life ... let's say she was 17, for the sake of argument.  At that point she may somehow have gracefully aged naturally during her say, three years of service with the family, to her present young womanhood.  Speculation?  Interpretation?  Maybe ... but so are the scenarios set forth by Ms. Resch and Ms. Robin, et al.  My version would fit the facts as well as other interpretations, but have the advantage of harmonizing the 1840 storyline which other interpreations conveniently ignore.

An earlier poster didn't seem to understand why I would lend more weight to this later storyline's version of events, and I don't know what more to say without repeating myself.  The DS storylines progressed and changed, and when one version of events is later substituted for an earlier version (think of the early Collins ancestors and history referred to in the first few months of the series that we clearly must "forget" later) I think we're meant to accept the later version.

Since so many people are willing to accept fan fiction, statements in interviews, skits, and novels written decades after the show, I don't understand the problem with going back to the show itself to see how the writers at the time either resolved things or the state of events that they finally left us with on the show itself.  What I don't understand is the vast majority of fandom (at least those expressing themselves on this forum) just ignoring what we're told in 1840.  It's as if 1840, clearly a major storyline within the series, holds no weight.  Even the series writers Lara Parker consulted with (I don't have the book with me so I don't remember which ones she consulted) were seemed unaware of the 1840 storyline events.  That's what I don't understand.

"Collinwood is not a healthy place to be." -- Collinsport sheriff, 1995