Victoria Winters

Just to chime in with my two drachmae on the subject...

Agree that Liz was Vicki's Mom; I watched the Oct.-Nov. 1966 episodes recently and the way Joan was playing the role was definitely as if Vicki was the daughter by whom she was trying finally to do right, bringing her to Collinwood.

I think Hanscomb was the Father and that Liz had had an affair with him.  It's too bad they did not do a storyline where Frank found Hanscomb and brought him back to Collinwood for a showdown with Liz.  Perhaps this was discussed and then switched to the Jason story that they did wind up doing.

As for Vicki's fate, she should have married Frank.  Conrad Fowkes was by far the most personable of the men they paired her with, and there seemed to be some genuine chem between the two.  I assume that Fowkes ran afoul of DC and left the series because of that--happened with a lot of other talented folks (Fowkes?)  When AM wanted out of the series in the Fall of 1968, I'd have preferred a storyline where Frank returned to Collinwood and brought Vicki out of her depression in the wake of Peter/Jeff's disappearance from the scene.  I'd have relished dialogue along the lines of "Peter Bradford was just a bad dream."  Yeah, the kind of thing you get after too much chips and salsa late at night.

I don't think DS' run would have been prolonged if Moltke had stayed on board, but we would have gotten the chance to see her do other roles.  I don't see Vicki being paired with Barnabas under any circumstances.  I think the writing team would have had to have been given a freer hand to have developed some different styles of storytelling after 1968 for Moltke to have had sufficient interest in staying, and it is possible that this kind of overhaul might have prolonged the life of the series. Since I personally believe that DC chose to pull the plug on the series, I don't think any amount of retooling or ratings burst could have saved it.

G.

Picking up on something mentioned earlier about Joan Bennett having always played Liz as Vicki's mother...

I was watching the episode where Vicki (Durkin incarnation) finally marries Jeff Clark, with Liz as her witness.  There's a moment at the end of the ceremony where Elizabeth is left alone, her smile drops and she looks simply devastated - I swear, I got a tear in my eye. It really is a mother grieving the loss of her child -- it's screaming out.  A wonderful little scene.

Watching, it seemed to sum up the truth of their relationship so deeply, that I really wonder if the writers knew that Vicki was doomed and figured they'd throw the fans a line to give that thread some resolution.

I believe that the vast majority of fans believe that Liz is Vicki's mother because 1) Joan Bennett had commented that she was told almost from the very outset that Liz was Vicki's mother and that's how she always played their relationship

I don't wish to belabor the matter, but what I had read about Joan Bennett's comment differs slightly but significantly from what you say.  I read that she, Joan Bennett, as an actress, made an actor's decision (necessary for subtext, whatever) that Elizabeth was Vicki's mother.  If you have information that truly states that she was specifically told that she was Vicki's mother, I'd be interested in seeing that.

Interpreting an actor's performance is subjective, of course, but I saw nothing in her performance that could not also be interpreted by the viewer (especially if a twist to the mystery were later revealed) that Elizabeth had a familial relationship to Vicki that doesn't necessarily have to have been maternal.  An aunt, for example, could feel maternally toward a niece.

and 2) DS producer Robert Costello has commented that, after they hired Alexandra Moltke and saw her resemblance to Bennett, they decided to deviate from Art Wallace's bible and make Liz Vicki's mother. And they didn't make these comments while DS was originally on the air, but years, even decades after it had been cancelled. One can't help but understand how comments from two people so closely associated with DS might hold more weight with fans than any theories we fans might come up with, no matter how well researched they may or may not be. 

I would like to know what Francis Swann had to say on the matter since he wrote the episodes I refer to.  How much liberty would a writer have in developing aspects of a storyline?  The producer?  How trustworthy is memory years after the fact?  Have we seen evidence that memories of various DS personalities are always trustworthy and accurate?

 

If you have information that truly states that she was specifically told that she was Vicki's mother, I'd be interested in seeing that.

Actually, Joan Bennett stated it on numerous occasions at the DS Fests. Perhaps someone who taped her appearances captured at least one such occassion. I don't know because I don't own any of the tapes - but I do know what I heard. 

I would like to know what Francis Swann had to say on the matter since he wrote the episodes I refer to.  How much liberty would a writer have in developing aspects of a storyline?  The producer?  How trustworthy is memory years after the fact?  Have we seen evidence that memories of various DS personalities are always trustworthy and accurate?

Trustworthy memory is always at issue years later (the slips in some of the early PomPress books are legendary!  ). But I actually believe others have made the same comment that Costello did regarding the decision to make Liz Vicki's mother. Someday I'll have to look them up - but it probably won't be until sometime after we've switched to the new system and I begin to post articles in the Members' Archive again...

As for Swann, I don't think I've ever read an interview with him. I'm sure one would be fascinating. But if his experience working with DC was like the majority of the other DS writers, chances are he'd probably liken a good portion of his experience to slave labor.    Also, one has to remember that Swann was only an associate writer - DC had appointed himself as head writer, despite the fact that Art Wallace was far more qualified for the position and had developed much of the story. With DC and Wallace battling for story control much of the time, who knows how much Swann might have been able to influence the direction the storylines took? 

     I thought in the early episodes, Elizabeth treated Victoria like an employee.  Elizabeth on more than one occasion threatened to have Victoria discharged.  She doted on Carolyn while using Victoria as a governess to her homicidal nephew.  I have always liked the character of Elizabeth who always tried to be honorable.  By making Elizabeth Victoria's mother,  she becomes a much less admirable person.  She dumps a baby off in an orphanage(paying a minuscule stipend) then hires her on as an employee all the while lavishing time and attention on Carolyn(maybe they should have hired Joan Crawford to play mommie dearest instead).

During the first year, I think DC was a little more restraint over what went on then he was in later years.  The story was not fast paced then.

Actually, Joan Bennett stated it on numerous occasions at the DS Fests. Perhaps someone who taped her appearances captured at least one such occassion. I don't know because I don't own any of the tapes - but I do know what I heard.

Although it might not be considered as "official" as anything from the show itself, for DREAMS OF THE DARK, we were told explicitly by DC that Vickie is Elizabeth's daughter. We did not, however, receive any specifics; it would have been an interesting topic to explore, had the novel series continued.

--Mark[/glow]

Although it might not be considered as "official" as anything from the show itself, for DREAMS OF THE DARK, we were told explicitly by DC that Vickie is Elizabeth's daughter.

How interesting!!  I hadn't heard anything like that before!!  While we still don't know the father, I think we have to take the identity of the mother as settled!!

Victoria Winters was the daughter of Elizabeth Collins.  This should be beyond debate.  Her father (Jamison Joseph Collins) must have made her give up the baby.  It was out-of-wedlock, remember, in the 1940s.  I'm sure Elizabeth had no choice!

The show pointed to Mr. Handscomb as the father.  I think he was a butler, or butler-like character (The butler did it!).  So, that was very "naughty" -- out-of-wedlock, and with the "help."

The direction the show might have taken was that Burke, Laura and Roger's car killed Handscomb (in 1956).  Handscomb was returning to Collinsport.  He talked to Sam, first, then Roger saw him -- and, crash!

Betty's "portrait" was really done up from a photo of Alexandra, of course.  "Betty" could be a nickname for "Elizabeth," but there are other soap-opera like explainations for the "Betty" picture.

I think it was decided (wisely) that the character of Victoria Winters was more interesting as a gothic lass who doesn't know who she is... and is "searching for her identity."  This added to the "drifting, lost soul" quality of the character as the series went on -- the trips Vicki took to the 1790s were better because Vicki had no idea who she was or where she belonged.

If you remember, Jebez Hawkes "killed" Vicki... so this opens up the possibility that Vicki was actually protected from the Leviathans (if they wanted a Collins girl?).  Still, we can't assume Liz sent Vicki away -- it mustive been Jamison.  She probably had a lot of guilt about it... blamed herself, and might have had a difficult time with the admission... Oh well, I'll stop now, repeating myself.

PS You must READ that book "DARK SHADOWS: DREAMS OF THE DARK" -- it is GREAT.  It is very, very true to the show.  There is a great scene between Liz and Vicki that answers all the questions about their relationship.  It makes perfect sense.  READ "DREAMS OF THE DARK"

By the way, anybody know why it says I'm a Llama?  Why couldn't it be a Unicorn, or shoething more DS-like?
 

By the way, anybody know why it says I'm a Llama?  Why couldn't it be a Unicorn, or shoething more DS-like?
 

Knock knock.  Who's there?  Llama.  Llama who?  Llama little teapot...

Ahem, sorry.  Wes, there are different "mascots" for the various programming languages based on the covers of some of the books.  The llama is associated with Perl, which an older version of the forum was based on.  To get rid of it:

Click "profile" in the horizontal menu, type your current password into the top Required Info section (NOT where you're asked to type it twice-- that's for changing your pw), remove "I'm a llama!" from your Personal Text and feel free to replace it with something you prefer, then click Change profile to save it.

Victoria Winters was the daughter of Elizabeth Collins.  This should be beyond debate.

My experiences in fandom have led me to believe that the only universally accepted canon has been the original series, and even that is rife with inconsistencies and open to interpretation.  I also feel that as long as fans hold different theories about it this debate will be ongoing, and as this is a discussion forum all opinions about the subject are welcome.

I'm so happy to be rid of the llama!  Thank you.  Obviously, someone from Collinwood had something to do with birthing Vicki.  They drifted too far from Walt Cummings for that to be the answer.  They went the route of Liz being the unrevealed mother, I thought...  that was the direction.  The direction could have changed, of course... anything's possible!

Also . .the 'radio play' staged at this year's DSFEST put a lid on it, officially so to speak as DC Productions is involved in the Fest (a la Jim Pierson).  Vicki was Liz's daugter. ..by whom, it was not answered.  But in Liz's will she told Carolyn. . . so paternity is still up to debate .. . not that it matters to much, imo.

Reading everything here, I've come to the realization that I had always assumed (despite the old never assume adage) that Liz was Vicki's mother and always felt that Joan Bennett played the role in that way. Now I wonder if my own assumptions skewed my perception of the situation.

My experiences in fandom have led me to believe that the only universally accepted canon has been the original series, and even that is rife with inconsistencies and open to interpretation.

I could not agree more... and isn't that the great thing about DS as a whole. Although we'd all probably like definitive answers to our never-ending questions, in a way I'm rather glad that so many questions regarding plots and characters have remained unanswered... it gives us so much to speculate on and imagine for ourselves.

As far as Vicki's paternity, Hanscomb certainly seems the logical choice, although I'd almost like to think that it was Bill Malloy... at least that would make me feel better about the amount of time spent lingering on his murder and that darn pen 

grayson67 (Melissa)

I think anyone who has read this thread, or previous discussions, on the topic of Victoria's heritage can see that the matter is not "beyond debate."  As Midnite suggests, a final answer was not explicitly given on the show.  Therefore, since intelligent and observant people disagree in their interpretations, it obviously remains debatable.  All of us who have posted here have picked up on different and contradictory evidence, some of it from outside the actual show's content, such as comments made by actors, producers, the story bible, etc.  Some of the evidence cited here could be called theory, fancy, or even hearsay.

What I think remains undisputed is that the mystery of Vicky's parentage was in a state of flux and ideas about it changed.  The story bible suggested one possibility; some of the writing seemed to suggest another possibility or possibilities; and outside testimony states that such-and-such a decision was made at such-and-such a point in time.  Finally, 30 years later, Dan Curtis gave the explicit directive to Stephen Mark Rainey and Elizabeth Massey that Elizabeth should be Vicki's mother in their DCP-sanctioned novel.  (This was discussed with Mark Rainey the last time the topic was discussed, too, in the thread that became corrupted.)

I'll just offer one final bit of speculation.  In my opinion, writer Francis Swann may have been working on a different assumption than the one most fans of the show have settled upon, and perhaps Swann's concept was along the lines of one of the versions developed by Bob, CassandraBlair, and myself.  This is even more speculative, but perhaps Swann was not going in the direction that the producers decided on, and that could have had something to do with why he left the show just when the mystery was heating up.

Grayson67 wrote:

Although we'd all probably like definitive answers to our never-ending questions, in a way I'm rather glad that so many questions regarding plots and characters have remained unanswered... it gives us so much to speculate on and imagine for ourselves.

I'd like to frame this and hang it in a DS shrine in a corner of my room