Victoria Winters

Well, let's see....

My favorite storyline:  When Vicki first arrived.

As for Vicki staying, I prefer to think of her as returning.  She would just show up, suffering a bout of amnesia, but with Julia's help, her memory would've returned.

Vicki would've ended up with Burke.  Seems he did survive the plane crash.  As to what took him so long to get back to Collinwood, well, that's a whole storyline.  But they would wed.

Vicki's true parents:  Elizabeth, and a brave, US soldier she met while she volunteered as a USO girl during WWII in New York City.  They "get together" just before he leaves for Normandy, never to return.  To avoid scandal, Elizabeth's parents hide her away in a Manhattan apartment, and once the baby is born (in the winter of 1945), she is dropped off at the orphanage, and Liz is brought back to Collinwood where, once spring arrives, she tends to the Victory Garden planted on the lawn to keep her mind off things.  Of course, her parents don't even consider the ramifications of having her work in their "Victory" Garden.

I don't think the show would've lasted beyond its five year run, even if Vicki was still around, but it would've allowed for more possible storylines.

Gerard

(1) Favorite Vicki time period/storyline?  Everything up until the trip to 1795.  She was just a pluckier, more sensible heroine early on.

(2) What could/should the writers have done differently if she'd stayed on the show?  Would have loved to see Vicki turn to the dark side, or to have seen Alex Moltke play the heavy in a storyline.

(3) Who should Vicki have ended up with?  Although the two never met, I'm interested in the pairing of Quentin and Victoria.

(4) As to the parents, the theory to which Vlad alluded was that Paul Stoddard was her father, and her mother was Betty Hanscomb (she of the Sam Evans portrait).  My contribution was this: perhaps Betty Hanscomb was Jamison Collins' illegitimate daughter.  This would make Vicki a Collins family member, and perhaps make Liz feel she was obligated to look after her welfare, but not want to tell her the story of her background.

That being said, emotionally I still like the idea of Vicki as Liz's daughter.  Go figure.

(5) Would Vicki's presence have made the show last longer/be better?  Dunno.  Am guessing that the actress might have ended up playing the Daphne character, and things would've gone about the same except no Kate Jackson.  If the actual character of Vicki was still there it's hard (for me) to imagine where she might've fit into the later storylines.  Maybe she could have been the one to kill Jeb Hawkes.

(4) As to the parents, the theory to which Vlad alluded was that Paul Stoddard was her father, and her mother was Betty Hanscomb (she of the Sam Evans portrait).  My contribution was this: perhaps Betty Hanscomb was Jamison Collins' illegitimate daughter.  This would make Vicki a Collins family member, and perhaps make Liz feel she was obligated to look after her welfare, but not want to tell her the story of her background.

That being said, emotionally I still like the idea of Vicki as Liz's daughter.  Go figure.

CassB, my dear, I'm sorry to contradict you ... we had a wonderfully elaborate scenario that truly answered every shred of evidence, and although I've unfortunately forgotten our final solution,* I can say for certain that I did not initially propose Paul Stoddard as Victoria's father!

I'm hoping that the original thread (I think it was called "Victoria Winters Parentage" or something like that could be accessed from the forum archives?? 

My printouts and notes on all of this are, of course, in storage in another state (where else?  ), but here's what I remember ...

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*Later:  As I was writing this, it all came back ... though I'm not 100 percent certain if I've got every detail correct.

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I mentioned that I had originally believed that Paul Stoddard was Victoria's father by an unknown (and unimportant to the story) young woman, and that Elizabeth found out about it and felt guilty and wanted to support Victoria.... Later I came to accept the proposition of Elizabeth as Victoria's mother after learning of a real-life celebrity case where an actress "adopted" her actual, biological daughter and brought her home.  Nevertheless, I don't feel that Elizabeth's behavior and actions fit this scenario very well.

What I did was look at Art Wallace's original concept in the "story bible" for the series, "Shadows on the Wall."  If my memory serves correct, at that early stage it hadn't been decided if VW was Elizabeth's daughter, though it was hinted that this was a possibility.  I began talking notes of various clues that were given, such as the name "B. Hanscomb" on the old ledger, Sam Evans' sketch of "Betty Hanscomb" (which bore a striking resemblance to both Victoria and Elizabeth), etc., and noted that these clues were all in scripts written by Francis Swann.  I also looked at the other central mystery in this first part of the series, the "murder" of Paul Stoddard.  As an audience, we are clearly led in the WRONG direction the whole time, assuming that Elizabeth killed Paul (which is doubly convincing since she believes this herself).  Only at the moment of truth, there's a surprise revelation -- a complete twist on our expectations.  Similarly, I think, we as an audience were being misled to conclude erroneously that Elizabeth was VW's mother.  There was to be a moment of revelation that would have provided a surprise twist comparable to that of the mystery of Paul's murder.  However, Francis Swann, who held the keys to the VW mystery, left the series before this could happen, and the matter was then left unresolved by DC & Co.  The actors themselves, such as Joan Bennett, probably never really knew what Mr. Swann had up his sleeve, and eventually everyoone fell back on the vague supposition that Elizabeth was VW's mother, drawing their conclusions on this possibility from the original story bible (but which I think the evidence shows Swann had definitely moved away from).

I also think that Francis Swann had the popular Gothic-tinged Victorian mystery novel "The Woman in White" in the back of his mind as he was working out the mystery of VW in an updated Gothic setting.  In the Wilkie Collins  novel, the young woman of mystery ( // VW in DS) turns out to be the illegitimate half-sister of the heroine ( // Eliz. Collins Stoddard).  And the name that links them in the novel is Hanscomb.

The theory I then proposed (which was actually the brainchild initially of the now-unknown "Bob" on the VN board) was that Elizabeth's and Roger's father, Jamison (who would have been in his 60s I think -- I worked all this out), fathered VW with young Betty Hanscomb, the daughter of Collinwood servant "B. Handscomb."  Therefore VW was Elizabeth's half-sister.

That's where you came in, Cassandra B., taking all this a step further and making an even more compelling case for Betty Hanscomb (not Victoria) being Elizabeth's half-sister.  In other words, Jamison's infidelity had occurred when he was a much younger man, and he fathered Betty Hanscomb.  This scenario explains why the sketch of Betty Hanscombe resembles both Elizabeth and Victoria Winters (Betty's daughter).

But I'm forgetting the important detail of whom the father was -- could it have been Paul Stoddard?  Yes!  I think that was it -- and that was your brilliant contribution  , CassB:  Betty was Elizabeth's half-sister (the illegitimate daughter of Jamison Collins); and then Elizabeth's new husband, Paul, carried on an affair with Betty, producing Victoria.  This accounts for all of the facts, including the difficulty of explaining how Elizabeth supposedly bore a child without anyone every whispering about it, her brother Roger knowing about it, etc.

I can't remember how this worked with the "B. Hanscomb" in the ledgers, but I know that our theory left no loose ends.

I remember I had worked out the details with Sam Evans and the sketch.  Basicallly I said that he suspected who Betty really was but didn't feel it was his place to tell Victoria that he thought Betty had been her mother.  It wasn't his place, much as he thought of Vicky as a nice kid and had sympathy for her, but instead he fudged some of the facts, just as Elizabeth denied the obvious resemblance between Betty Hanscomb and Victoria.  In the 1960s people were not as open and accepting of illegitamacy as they are today -- rather, it was a "stain"  -- and it certainly would not have been appropriate for Sam to voice his conclusions to Vicki.

My and Cassandra's combined theory also explains the relationship Elizabeth has with VW.  Elizabeth cares about the girl (her niece) and feels responsible toward her knowing her father's role in the matter (as Betty's father), and Paul's role (as Victoria's father) .  Victoria Winters is a Collins.  Given societal and her own strictures, Elizabeth cannot acknowledge Victoria as such.  She feels kindly towards her, but is able to maintain a slight emotional distance that would have been far more difficult had VW actually been her own daughter (and Carolyn's sister).

Say what you will -- though it has been "decided" today that Elizabeth was Victoria's mother, a close reading of the actual evidence suggests that a far different solution was being set up but was unfortunately dropped before it could be concluded.

Always happy to have another Vicki fan.

1. Fave Vicki storyline was the Jason McGuire extortion plot.  I liked the tension between her and Carolyn among other things.

2. There are a bunch of possibilities, most of the good ones (my opinion) involving Alex Moltke playing a darker character (evil twin-Vicki or PT-Vicki work).  As for the "original" Vicki character, I don't think a lot could've been done with her barring a real overhaul of the character.

3. I'd like to see a more strong willed Vicki whip some young evil guy into shape.  Something along the lines of Maggie forcing Nick Blair to go shopping or keep her company at the Inn as opposed to sacrificing her into Hell.

4. I think its appropriate the plot line the show was founded on was never resolved in the slightest

5. She was good-looking enough that anything is possible.  But honestly, folks, I really don't think it would've made a real difference.  Keeping the character they had in '68 probably would've run the show into the ground sooner...

The original character of Victoria Winters was predicated upon the original concept of "Dark Shadows" as a Gothic/Mystery Soap Opera.  And, at the same time, the character of Vicky was very much the first mystery upon which the show was built.

Once the show took a complete turn towards the Supernatural, the character of Vicky was forced to alter to accomodate the new direction.  Fiesty 'girls' like Maggie originally was, are fun to watch....but they don't work too well with situations involving the inexplicable.  They don't wring their hands and say "I don't understand".....they grab flashlights and pistols and go in search of the real-life bad guys they expect to find behind the 'supernatural' stuff they don't believe in.

Vicky Winters would have turned Collinwood upside down to find the truth about her parentage.....but it just wouldn't do to have her wandering around the Old House, threatening to slap Willie Loomis silly if he didn't get the hell out of her way while she looked in the cellar.....so they rendered her clueless and pathetic.

I think getting rid of the character was inevitable...even if Alexandra Moltke had chosen to stay, I think she would have had to morph into someone else entirely.

Despite the conventional wisdom and closed statements many make on this topic, it is not a given that Elizabeth is Victoria's mother.

The great thing about fandom is that it's possible to debate and deconstruct all the unresolved questions on DS. However, I believe that the vast majority of fans believe that Liz is Vicki's mother because 1) Joan Bennett had commented that she was told almost from the very outset that Liz was Vicki's mother and that's how she always played their relationship, and 2) DS producer Robert Costello has commented that, after they hired Alexandra Moltke and saw her resemblance to Bennett, they decided to deviate from Art Wallace's bible and make Liz Vicki's mother. And they didn't make these comments while DS was originally on the air, but years, even decades after it had been cancelled. One can't help but understand how comments from two people so closely associated with DS might hold more weight with fans than any theories we fans might come up with, no matter how well researched they may or may not be.    But as I said, debate is and always will be a really wonderful thing. And we should never not engage in it simply because it seems as if a lingering question was resolved in a way other than during the course of the show (like Bennett and Costello's comments). If there wasn't ever an explicit and definitive answer to a question in the actual episodes, then it is and always will be up for debate...

I'm hoping that the original thread (I think it was called "Victoria Winters Parentage" or something like that could be accessed from the forum archives?? 

Unfortunately that isn't possible. For some sad reason that topic is the only topic that ever became corrupt while we were with our old host. We never realized that until we converted the system from YaBB SP to SE, but it wouldn't have mattered because we soon discovered that even all of our backups of the topic were also corrupt.

Could someone - or someTHING - have been trying to tell us something? 

CassB, my dear, I'm sorry to contradict you ... we had a wonderfully elaborate scenario that truly answered every shred of evidence, and although I've unfortunately forgotten our final solution,* I can say for certain that I did not initially propose Paul Stoddard as Victoria's father!

Wow Vlad.  Your memory on this one is better than mine.  Guess I was just remembering the end result, not how we got there.  Sorry!

Looked for the VW parentage thread earlier, and couldn't find it.  Now I know why - of all the convoluted topics, this was the one that got corrupted!  Maybe somebody was trying to tell us something. 

I never knew about the Wilkie Collins "Lady in White" angle - wonder if the DS writers did take the name Hanscomb from the novel?

(1)  What Is Your Favorite Victoria Storyline or Time Period?

She's pretty good in the early episodes, where she has a quest and a purpose. And the sequence where David traps her in the abandoned wing is a highlight of the first year - pure gothic pulp.

(2)  What Would You Have Wanted For Victoria If The Character Had  Stayed Until The End, Or What Do You See What The Writers Could Have Done?

Evil Vicki!  Hahahahaha... How cool would that have been? Possessed by the Devil and covertly psychotic would be amusing. Or maybe she finds out she's really a Collins and begins to dig her heels in, all bitter over her lost birthright. The Liz/Vicki revelation is an obvious one, and it might have been rewarding seeing the fall-out and the pair reconciled.

(3) Who Would Victoria Ulitmately End Up With If It Was Your Choice?

Her and Burke. Both of them are lonely people - he's got a past he wants to forget, she's robbed of one... they both know what it's like to be an outsider. Hmmmmm...

(4) Who Were Victoria's TRUE Parents?

"Return to Collinwood" answers that one... please no bleating about "canon", people

(5)  Would The Show Have Lasted Or Been Better In It's Final Years Had Victoria Been Present?

No.  After 1795, she's a bit lost, truth be told. Alexandra Moltke's memorable bitch at the time about Vicki's stupidity generally hits the nail on the head.

In some respects, it's a pity that Carolyn Groves didn't get the gig before Betsy Durkin, because I think the character would have lasted, and Groves manages to bring some interesting new shades to the role. Her Vicki seems far more mature and self-assured, and it might have been interesting to see if and how the writers would have responded to it.

Hey ...Adra here....

 In response to your questions...here goes...

1) My favorite Victoria time period was around the time Laura appeared(Pheonix Storyline)..She did some of her best acting around that time....


2) Maybe Victoria could have aided Barnabas and Julia in their time traveling escapades.

3) I would have liked to see Victoria's relationship with Frank Garner rekindled. They made a cute couple.

4) It's a toss up on her father..but Liz could be the mother.

5) I believe the show would have ended with or without her. It would have been nice to see her playing some of the characters in other times. Imagine seeing Alexandra Moltke playing Daphne Harridge or Samantha Collins. I would have loved to see her play a Collins.

Adra

Looked for the VW parentage thread earlier, and couldn't find it.  Now I know why

Well, it's not entirely gone. Some of the posts do show - just not all of them. 

Well, it's not entirely gone. Some of the posts do show - just not all of them. 

Yep, "Victoria Winter's Parents" is in Current Talk IV on p. 16.

A similar topic called "vicki's past", in case anyone is interested, is in Current Talk II, p. 7.

Searching for these titles will bring up either as well (but leave off the quotation marks), as will a message search for a common word in this discussion, such as "Hanscomb".  Just be sure to increase the maximum age when performing an advanced search for older topics.

The theory I then proposed (which was actually the brainchild initially of the now-unknown "Bob" on the VN board) was that Elizabeth's and Roger's father, Jamison (who would have been in his 60s I think -- I worked all this out), fathered VW with young Betty Hanscomb, the daughter of Collinwood servant "B. Handscomb."  Therefore VW was Elizabeth's half-sister.

That's where you came in, Cassandra B., taking all this a step further and making an even more compelling case for Betty Hanscomb (not Victoria) being Elizabeth's half-sister.  In other words, Jamison's infidelity had occurred when he was a much younger man, and he fathered Betty Hanscomb.  This scenario explains why the sketch of Betty Hanscombe resembles both Elizabeth and Victoria Winters (Betty's daughter).

But I'm forgetting the important detail of whom the father was -- could it have been Paul Stoddard?  Yes!  I think that was it -- and that was your brilliant contribution  :D , CassB:  Betty was Elizabeth's half-sister (the illegitimate daughter of Jamison Collins); and then Elizabeth's new husband, Paul, carried on an affair with Betty, producing Victoria.  This accounts for all of the facts, including the difficulty of explaining how Elizabeth supposedly bore a child without anyone every whispering about it, her brother Roger knowing about it, etc.

This also accounts for the relatively large age diffference between Elizabeth and Roger--- eight years according to their family bible (18 years according to "Shadows on the Wall"):

Ennui sets in between Jamison and his wife.

Jamison engages in affair with the sister of the butler Hanscombe, who was, most likely, working as a maid.

She gets pregnant, and perhaps, dies in childbirth.  If so, the butler, at first not aware of the ID of the baby girl's father, names her Elizabeth, either as a compliment to his boss's legitimate daughter, or after one of his own relatives.  If however, the young mother survived, maybe she chose the name to express her resentment that Jamison would not leave his family for her.  In any case, the two little girls are nicknamed Liz and Betty, so they don't get called to the wrong supper tables.

Jamison's wife discovers the affair, and the birth.  Jamison refuses to send away his inconvenient second family.  Ennui turns to estrangement for a couple of years.

Then something happens--- either the butler's sister has left, due to marriage or a better job opportunity, or, more likely, has died, which would better explain why Betty was raised by her uncle.  Plus, the death of her rival would be more likely to soften the attitude of Jamison's wife.
She consents to let the two half-sisters become playmates, though always reminding them of the difference in status.  She also reconciles with Jamison, and nine months later, little Roger is born.   It is not stated in the program at which point Liz and Roger's mother has died, though SotW has the now-middle-aged "Carolyn" (for whom Liz later names her own daughter) dying in childbirth.

If so, at that point, Jamison really begins to indulge ALL his children, including Betty, having her portrait painted by Sam Evans (but, due to his death soon afterward, never delivered), and sending her to school in NYC.  There, unfortunately, she meets Paul Stoddard and his disreputable friend Jason McGuire.  Despite the example of her own late mother,  Betty falls in love with Paul, and is soon made pregnant.

She finds out that her father has just died, but her funds have been cut off.  This, then,
could be evidence that Jamison's spiteful wife was still alive, or that Liz realized the "truth" about her father and was P.O.'d at the moment, or, perhaps, Jamison's sister Nora (like Justin's sister Julia in PT 1841) had something to do with it.  Anyway, Paul soon tires of his now-penniless, pregnant girlfriend, who has, moreover, told him all about her wealthy half-sister back in Maine.  He leaves her, with a lie that he will personally appeal to Liz to give Betty her rightful share of the inheritance.  Jason stays in NYC, "befriending" Betty, for the time being.

Of course, you know the rest--- Paul wasted no time in courting and wedding the frustrated Liz, who has had to manage her father's business, oversee Roger's care, and perhaps deal with her difficult mother, thus leaving little time for romance, and her biological clock ticking away.  Liz got pregnant a year later, and Paul, with Jason's connivance, managed to keep Betty from contacting her.  Liz's mother must have died by that time, and the new baby was named for her.

Meanwhile, Betty bore her own child in NYC, shortly found she couldn't support her, and, "helped" by Jason, dropped her off at the orphanage.  Either one of them could have written the note, so the handwriting didn't match Liz's.  Miraculously, the baby Victoria was not adopted in the interim.  Finally, Jason left Betty and went to join Paul, who about to abscond with some Collins funds, and wanted his share.  He may have brought a letter from Betty, which Liz would have found in Paul's luggage after she thought she killed him.

By this time, Vicki was a toddler, and Liz was alone with her own baby Carolyn, having sacked everyone except Mathew Morgan, and Hanscombe, whom she probably paid off, along with his niece--- her half-sister--- so they would both disappear.  Sick of the consequences of their involvment with the Collinses and their in-laws, they might have gone willingly--- Betty, now relieved of responsibility for the daughter she hadn't held since Vicki was an infant, anyway.

Out of guilt, Liz then paid for Vicki's care and education, which also kept her from being adopted, though one could understand why she wouldn't have been willing to RAISE the child.   She also kept track of Vicki's life in the orphanage; she told Roger that the girl had a lonely childhood there.  Sympathy,  curiosity, and a desire to do finally do right by her niece/stepdaughter, who apparently had not inherited any bad qualities from her erring parents, caused Liz to bring Vicki "home"--- but in a subordinate position.

Little is explained by Liz's reaction when Roger, at first, sexually harrassed Vicki.  After all, her own daughter, Carolyn, was, more or less, flirting with her uncle.  (rather suggestive for 1966!) Still, Roger wasn't trying to break into HER bedroom, as far as we know.  Liz displayed anger when her brother bothered Vicki, but not the outrage one would have expected if he had actually made an advance on a child of hers.

All that much having been said, IF they had brought back the Vicki character, even without Alexandra Moltke (Betsy Durkin--- No!  Carolyn Groves--- Si!) and Liz, was, after all, revealed to be her mother, given that an ordinary mortal Dad wouldn't have been exciting enough by then, I nominate Nicholas Blair.  (Well, he had all those powers--- he COULD have made himself look like someone else back in 1945, or maybe, he and Liz were made to FORGET their affair, by Diablos.)

Adding a little confusion to your day.
L.

Wowie!!  You've certainly worked out a full story around all of them - quite amazing!

Had AM stayed on DS, perhaps she would have been the time traveller to 1897 or played Rachael Drummond.

Kathryn Leigh Scott might have been phased out as Maggie would not have any more use in the story.   She would have appeared only occasionally or maybe not at all during the Quentin hauntings.  There would be no 1897 character for KLS to play, so she may have been let go.

Love the Vicki parentage theories!  Carolyn Groves would have made a good Vicky.  If only she was hired before Betsy Durkin.

Kathryn Leigh Scott might have been phased out as Maggie would not have any more use in the story.   She would have appeared only occasionally or maybe not at all during the Quentin hauntings.  There would be no 1897 character for KLS to play, so she may have been let go.

Uh, you'd better hope that no members of TLATKLS Legion read that.       

Carolyn Groves would have made a good Vicky.  If only she was hired before Betsy Durkin.

I agree. I like Groves' interpretation of Vicki and have often wondered if Vicki might not have been written out so unceremoniously had Groves taken over the role before Durkin did...