DARK SHADOWS FORUMS
General Discussions => Current Talk Archive => Current Talk '25 I => Current Talk '08 I => Topic started by: David on January 14, 2008, 03:20:36 PM
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If you go to a Star Trek or general horror/sci fi con, the breakdown between gay & straight attendees is the same as it in life: 90% straight/10% gay.
But here in DS land, fests included, it's closer to 50/50, sometimes even 60/40, the 60 being the gay percentage.
So why does DS have such a huge appeal to gay viewers?
Right now, here in SF, 2 friends & I are meeting once or twce a month to watch DS together.
We're all gay!
One of my best friends, who lives in LA, is a big DS fan.
He's gay, and he has two friends in LA, also gay, who are fans.
So why does DS appeal to us queers?
An interesting question!
David
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i guess the men on the show, quite frankly, and their snug fitting pants?
HMMMMMMMM?
other than that, it's just a run of the mill horror fest.
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Why do any of the films or actors who seem to have a large gay followings have it? E.g Joan, Bette, the movie Carrie, etc etc. . .larger than life portrayals seems to be enjoyed by a certain segment of the American population. Although I do see a definite generational change, younger gay audiences aren't so into the larger melodramatic portrayals--more into edgy, current items--and for some strange reason, anime?! [snow_blush] (I don't think i even spelled it right)
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I don't go to other conventions but I've been around the DS fests enough to make similar observations. A friend, new to the DS fests, commented to me before going to her first fest that it would be nice to meet a guy and have a romance both sharing a love of DS. I told her "Honey, look elsewhere for your boyfriend . . ."
nancy
If you go to a Star Trek or general horror/sci fi con, the breakdown between gay & straight attendees is the same as it in life: 90% straight/10% gay.
But here in DS land, fests included, it's closer to 50/50, sometimes even 60/40, the 60 being the gay percentage.
So why does DS appeal to us queers?
An interesting question!
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Perhaps a good reason has to do with the character of Barnabas Collins. When we meet him, he's a vampire, a creature who's definitely something to be reviled -- an outcast to human society. Yet, as time goes on, he gains acceptance by those around him and a self-acceptance as well. A parallel could be drawn between his experience and that of a gay person dealing with coming out of the closet. I don't know if that's over-analyzing, but I can see where someone who's gay could relate to Barnabas' experiences.
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i had this very discussion with another cousin privately several months back so i'll throw my two cents in...
for starters we all hate the so called "camp" reputation our show gets but as a gross generalization i'll say the lavender set(present company very much included)goes for that sort of thing.the outsized drama,the overacting,the grand sweep of the whole thing.it's all good and it's all gay.
it's lumped in with the "sci-fi" crowd for those outside the know but it's truly gothic drama on an epic scale.
so i'm not surpised it has a larger gay following than,say,the x-files.
local handymen/hunks like joe haskell and chris jennings add a certain beefy charm.
the flips,falls and false eyelashes get a fashionista's heart thumping(caftans!gloves!minis!).
but i think a big part of it is the combined diva power of joan bennett/grayson hall/lara parker.it's that whole bitch thing.there is nothing bitchier on this earth than julia slapping cassandra and a good bitch-slap gets alot of mileage with the homos.
i remember watching a scene during 1795 that featured joan as naomi,grayson as the countess dupres and clarice blackburn as abigail.for a show that gets a somewhat "shlock" reputation that was some virtuoso stuff.talk about divas!
again gross generalizations all around but the diva-ness,the campiness and the theatricality of it all holds alot of charm for well,you know. [color] [color] [color]
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I'm a straight guy, so perhaps not qualified to speculate, but I think adamsgirl is on the mark. There's an essay floating around somewhere--I read it online years ago--by a gay guy who speculates on the nature of the gothic, the outsider-ness, use of solitary outcast characters whom society disapproves of, in fact outlaws, etc...it was a compelling argument to this student of literature.
If I were gay I'd love DS. Oh wait, I DO love DS...hmmm. :)
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Perhaps a good reason has to do with the character of Barnabas Collins. When we meet him, he's a vampire, a creature who's definitely something to be reviled -- an outcast to human society. Yet, as time goes on, he gains acceptance by those around him and a self-acceptance as well. A parallel could be drawn between his experience and that of a gay person dealing with coming out of the closet. I don't know if that's over-analyzing, but I can see where someone who's gay could relate to Barnabas' experiences.
Yes, it's interesting to see the characters of Barnabas (and Quentin and Chris) struggle with their true "natures." But to take the metaphor a step further, these characters are constantly struggling against their natures, seeking cures for their condition.
Interesting also, that when Barnabas is 'cured' the audience preferred him the other way! :D
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Perhaps a good reason has to do with the character of Barnabas Collins. When we meet him, he's a vampire, a creature who's definitely something to be reviled -- an outcast to human society. Yet, as time goes on, he gains acceptance by those around him and a self-acceptance as well. A parallel could be drawn between his experience and that of a gay person dealing with coming out of the closet. I don't know if that's over-analyzing, but I can see where someone who's gay could relate to Barnabas' experiences.
I kinda agree...
from my own perspective, I've found myself identifying with Barnabas in some ways....also Julia at times too. Not just the reciprocated love issue, but the struggle of who you really are vs. what a certain society wants you to be, also accepting yourself vs. wanting to be accepted, at times having to keep a part of you secret from people, except those you really trust...
I could go on and on. ;)
also, in the line of what msbryk was saying, those of us in the LGBT crowd seem to have an appreciation for drama and all that which is.....
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v495/rosebud22/drj85.jpg)
DIVINE!
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v495/rosebud22/drj77.jpg)
[sorry, couldn't help myself... [snow_smileydevil] ]
hugs,
Heather H.
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v495/rosebud22/male_male_love_by_purpledragon.png)
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Heather, Darling, that snapshot of Our Favorite Brain Surgeon/Psychiatrist/Obstetrician/Haematologist is truly DIVINE!!!!! You just made my day! Thanks so much, sweetie!
For the record, I am "the gay guy" who wrote that essay about the appeal of DS to gay men that's 'floating around on the internet." Unfortunately, the essay was a DRAFT that I sent to a fan I won't bother to name here as a POSSIBLE contrib to his short lived zine The Secret Room which was meant to be a mag for gay fans of DS. Well, not only did this character use my DRAFT in his publication as a finished piece of work, he failed to respond to any of my letters, and never even sent me a copy of his bloody zine! And then he had the audacity to post my work on the internet without, of course, bothering to ask my permission! If I ever run into this individual at a Festival, believe me, darlings, the bitch-slap Julia gave Cassandra is going to look like a little love-tap Miss Sally bestowed upon the Do-Bee of the week with her magic wand by comparison.
Anyhow, I'm glad that this very rough piece of work was deemed interesting reading by a student of literature and human character. Thanks for the kind words.
Another essay I wrote about the Leviathans storyline for yet another zine is also "floating around on the Internet." That editor also never bothered to ask my permission or inform me that he was posting my work on his website. Dontcha just FEEL THE LOVE in our wonderful world of DS fandom?
But, I digress. This is an interesting thread. I just hope that the straight dudes among the fans don't feel that their masculinity is too "threatened" by the prevalence of gay/bi DS fans in the group. We know from today's mass media that straight masculinity is something of a fragile, delicate little flower, needing much pampering and coddling to manage to achieve even a modicum of vigor. At least that's the impression I get from some of the tempest in a teapot debates online... Again, I digress.
One of my favorite "gay, gay, GAY" things about DS are the scenes where it's the middle of the night and the girls are all in bed with their high heels on. And there's more than one scene where Liz rises from her bed in full street makeup with her hair down but sprayed and lacquered into a solid shiny mass, her nightgown ironed, pressed and starched, and the requisite heels... I'm afraid I can't explain just why this seems so FABULOUS. I note with distress that the word "gay" has come to be a synonym of "stupid" among schoolchildren. What times we do live in.
cheers, G.
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I've heard speculation oer the years that Barnabas being in "the closet" about his vampirism is what appealed to so many gay boys back in the '60s.
When I discovered the show in 1967, age 11, I was already noticing my attraction to men (I recall finding Frid cute at the time, LOL)
but I was too young, too un-enlightend, and not yet experienced to even think about gay issues.
At age 11, I'm not sure if all the "closet" metaphors
even registered.
I liked the show because it was scary!
At that age, I couldn't even see the camp aspects of it & took it seriously.
(I still take the 1967 intro of Barnabas & 1795 seriously~~the rest of it is a fun thrill ride)
I lik DS for the same reason I like Karloff, Lugosi, Price, Cushing & Lee, Burton & Depp.
When I discovered DS fandom in 1983, I was stunned at how gay it was.
Though I must say, this board is so refreshing.
The gays here are not only out, but comfortable & casual about it.
The queens I met at 1980s fests were semi-out and ashamed. Many of them dealt with their self-hate by spreading false rumors about the sexual activities of other fans~~and even cast members!
It's a sad memory.
Maybe the "Barnabas in the closet" metaphor applies to them.
Steve, I know who you're talking about re: Secret Room.
I once interviewed that guy for a story in San Francisco's Bay Area Reporter.
He just LOVED teling me how "off-kilter" DS fans are.
In his words, all DS fans had "something wrong with them".
While I did find that to be largely true at Fests of 20 years ago, this wonderful board has shown me the other side of the coin.
David
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I have a copy of "The Secret Room" zine that I bought at the 1995 Festival. Would you like me to scan the article and paste it here?
For the record, I am "the gay guy" who wrote that essay about the appeal of DS to gay men that's 'floating around on the internet." Unfortunately, the essay was a DRAFT that I sent to a fan I won't bother to name here as a POSSIBLE contrib to his short lived zine The Secret Room which was meant to be a mag for gay fans of DS. Well, not only did this character use my DRAFT in his publication as a finished piece of work, he failed to respond to any of my letters, and never even sent me a copy of his bloody zine! And then he had the audacity to post my work on the internet without, of course, bothering to ask my permission! If I ever run into this individual at a Festival, believe me, darlings, the bitch-slap Julia gave Cassandra is going to look like a little love-tap Miss Sally bestowed upon the Do-Bee of the week with her magic wand by comparison.
Anyhow, I'm glad that this very rough piece of work was deemed interesting reading by a student of literature and human character. Thanks for the kind words.
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I have many gay and lesbian people in my life (including a brother who did watch DS and loved Julia) and knowing what I do about their stories of self-discovery, feeling different - an outcast - and keeping a secret for a long time DS is full of things that L&Gs can identify with. Even though I do not have any friends who are "in the closet" (that I know of) I think they still look at DS as a show where characters share many of their own dilemmas. The more obvious example is that barnabas had a secret he felt he must keep even from his family.
By the way, Gothick - you and I have discussed that publication before The Secret Room. I had gotten a copy for my brother.
Nancy
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Hey Joey, sure, if the Mods agree and you don't mind taking the time to do so. It's already "floating around the Internet" and could easily enough be found via Google I would imagine.
I can't remember whether I used the phrase "fag hag" in connection with Julia or not. If I did and anyone here is offended, I apologize. As I said, it was a draft--for the dictionary-deprived, I'll underline that this means "piece of work in an unifinished or incomplete state."
Talking of piece of work, sounds as if there needs to be a portrait of that zine editor in the dictionary under that phrase...
cheers, G.
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Hi Nancy!
I do vaguely recall our having discussed "The Secret Room" zine. If memory serves, when that zine was being launched I had attended all of one DS Festival and had more enthusiasm than discrimination when it came to the world of Fandom.
Thinking of Barnabas spending two centuries trapped in his coffin in the secret room could indeed seem like the ultimate "closet" tale. I also thought of Julia's story on the show as preparing a gay viewer for experiencing the pangs of unrequited love for an unavailable man.
cheers, G.
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Hey Joey, sure, if the Mods agree and you don't mind taking the time to do so.
Since the author (and copyright owner, from what you've told us) has graciously provided his permission in writing, MB and I won't have a problem with it.
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Didn't Star Trek and DS being broadcasting the same year (1966)?
I'm a fan of both....I did go through what was for me a biisexual "phase" (hmmmmmm). I'm gay identified now.
As the show wound up in the early 70's, I'm surprised Captain Kirk didn't drop by Collinwood....every other "alternate universe" was tried.
But seriously, as a gay man, I look back on the early years of DS with a lot of fondness.....I was 13 (lucky number...) when the show premiered....I thought the ads made it look scarey and mysterious.....and, yes, even then I was a big fan of the old-time movie queens (for a star of Joan Bennett's fame to appear ona soap was considered quite a big deal then...but remember, Joan Crawfiord, Bette Davis, Oliviia DeHaviland, Barbara Stanwyck, Geraldine Paige and other "older" actresses were starring in thrillers like What Ever Happened to Baby Jane, Straiit Jacket and Lady in a Cage, DS gave Ms. Bennett a great role and a chance to win over a new generation of fans in a role that did NOT require her to be confined to a wheel chair or wield an axe). Also, the show aired after school...good timing. DS also provided a welcome escape from the horrors of the Vietnam War and the intense political strife our country was going through....
I enjoyed the show a LOT, but I though it really took off when Barnabas arrives...he gave the whole thing more mystery, suspense and a deeper, more primal sense of menace (his blood lust)...he was a shunned tortured man, but he also had POWER, and that is very attractive as well to a generation of gays that just began to feel it's political influence.
The show also engaged our imaginations in a way that conventional soaps never could...not only did we have a vampire who aroused our sympathies (Dracula never did THAT), but most of America never heard of the I Ching before this show and the idea that reaility iis a concept more flexible than Westerners usually consider. Also, maybe witchcraft is not such a bad thing after all if you can look like Lara Parker and possess her power.
--Osnafla
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I always wanted to find a "Collinwood" of my own when I was a teen. To me it represented a place where, no matter who or what you were, you were accepted. In the early '70's, there was NOTHING on television that mentioned homosexuality (and if it happened to be mentioned, it was usually negative), so I think some gay teens were attracted to a series like DS for the same reasons I was. It was easy to identify with Barnabas and his struggles just as we gays in that era dealt with our struggles. Also, we gays have always appreciated - worshipped! - strong, independent women and DS was full of them: Julia, Elizabeth, Angelique, etc. al. I think gays being attracted to DS is like how many of my brethern are attracted to musicals - DS and musicals are these magical, bigger-than-life places where people do fantastic things! Also, DS had such gorgeous costumes and such handsome sets and we gays love the finest in clothing and decor. FInally, so many of the DS characters say such witty, wicked things - and gays always love snappy dialogue!
Oh, many, many years ago, I sent that SECRET ROOM dude a letter with a SASE to receive info on his publication. Never heard back from him - I am astonished to find out he actually published an issue!
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I've wondered about this thread's question, but I sort of thought the gay men would just be answering the question, not asking it...!
A large contingent of TV show fandoms are those who go for action and flashy effects. It's true for some shows more than others. With Trek, there's a massive crowd that doesn't seem to appreciate ST as drama in the vein of the science-fiction literary genre, and judges it by how frequent and elaborate the explosions, ray-guns, and spaceships are.
I can do without that part of fandoms. I don't wish them any harm, but I want to feel "at home" in a fandom, and they're alien to me. I'm someone who is utterly baffled that anyone would even want the ST episodes "remastered" with flashier images of ships and planets, but that's another story.....
Maybe gays go more for atmosphere than action? If so, good, me too. 1897 gets a bit action-y, but overall, there isn't much in DS for the people who want fistfights and gunplay.
I'm not sure why I need to say it here and now, but I feel (and always have felt) just about as alienated from society as gay men have, if not more. I mean, in childhood, up to the present. I've had to fight all my life to believe that there really isn't anything deeply wrong with me, after all. I'm not gay; it was about more general, less easily identifiable traits or viewpoints....
It seems to me that Barnabas's near-certainty that he WAS guilty of terrible things, and not just a misunderstood outsider, probably parallels guilt ingrained very deeply into gays from their first moments, especially back then. He has a big black question mark hovering over him all the time. Sure, he's reformed, and didn't have a choice in being a vampire, but part of any human being probably doesn't care about fairness when assigning guilt. After all, he's cursed by God... (indirectly...)-- cursed without a judgment or a trial. Simple cursing by a witch seperates you from God forever, and God apparently doesn't care if you did anything to deserve it. The vampire's nature is inherently evil, and Barnabas is stuck with it, as evidenced by the fact that crosses hurt him. The universe isn't fair, to put it mildly.
Same with gays, at least decades ago. You may know you're hard-wired for gayness, it's your nature, and people around you judging you may not even disagree about that part... but even if it's not a "choice", it's still "wrong" and maybe even "evil", etc.. Yes, you may be just a damn (insert epithet here), it's not anything you did, it's something you just are..., and that thing you are is supposedly loathesome.
It's a weird, very destructive and unfair form of blame that becomes internalized. I'm losing focus as I always do, and I'm not sure if the point got made. I hope so.
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Another top "gay" moment in DS is the scene in Parallel Time 1970 where Roger and "Alexis" are having a gossip and Roger smirks that mentioning Maggie Collins in the same breath as Angelique is like comparing a sable to a mouse.
Edmonds' delivery, and Parker's admiring smirk of response, make this one of the cattiest scenes in the entire show. I've always thought that PT Roger was meant to be a twisted gay character in the vein of the late, great Clifton Webb in the classic 1940s film noir Laura. Roger didn't just admire Angelique--he wanted to BE her, on at least one level. Edmonds played PT Roger with an air of ruined grandeur in the scenes where he was alone soliloquizing to Angelique's portrait that definitely had a Forties feel to it.
I realize that today's viewers may vehemently deny that there's anything remotely "gay" about PT Roger--I'm just offering my opinion here.
G.
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I don't think those vehement denials are coming.
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local handymen/hunks like joe haskell and chris jennings add a certain beefy charm.
That was my first thought. Though the many other insights posted here are well said and appreciated. But ahhh, that beefy Jennings charm....
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Like David, I, too, watched DS because it was scary (well, it was back then to a kid - there were times when I watched it with my hands over my eyes). I never considered my fondness for it, back then, as having anything to do with my orientation; I didn't even know what that was all about. I just liked horror - scary monsters, ghosts, things from another world eating New Jersey, etc. I couldn't get enough of shows like The Twilight Zone, The Outer Limits, Thriller, Lost in Space, Star Trek, et. al. I have friends who are also gay, including my best friend, who absolutely loathed DS (and anything scary). Nothing in it piqued their gayness.
Gerard
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That was my first thought. Though the many other insights posted here are well said and appreciated. But ahhh, that beefy Jennings charm....
There just isn't any other word for it, but Vampire Tom was .... hot ....
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Mr. Trask: all "outsiders" can find a home in the gay community, regardless of your personal orientation.
Now here's an interesting question:
do strong women like Julia/Angelique appeal to lesbians?
David
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I'm not a lesbian but the characters appeal to me. I'm not crazy about the connotation that if you are a lesbian you are a strong woman or visa versa. Lesbians don't come in a mold, neither do straight women.
Nancy
Now here's an interesting question:
do strong women like Julia/Angelique appeal to lesbians?
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I was thinking about this thread again this morning and something I personally feel was a touch of artistic genius in Jonathan Frid's performance: no matter how many flubs he made with his lines, in his non-verbal moments he would turn those sad, soulful eyes towards the camera with this look of such tragic mournfulness, I think every viewer in the audience felt that she or he could identify with the secret sorrows of Barnabas Collins.
I'm phrasing this very awkwardly, but I do think that this was what made Frid's work in the role so brilliantly memorable. When he was on with the lines, no question about it, the Voice was a truly magnifcent instrument. One of the best known scenes is the original 1967 recounting of Josette's death, but there were many other moments throughout his four years in the role.
I just post this because although I do think that Barnabas had a special appeal for gay children and older gay men as well, I can see how the qualities of Frid's performance gave the character an appeal that touched many people across generations, sexualities, etc.
I'll also echo Gerard's thought that I know many gay men who fail to see the fun or fabulosity of Dark Shadows.
G.
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I was thinking about this thread again this morning and something I personally feel was a touch of artistic genius in Jonathan Frid's performance: no matter how many flubs he made with his lines, in his non-verbal moments he would turn those sad, soulful eyes towards the camera with this look of such tragic mournfulness, I think every viewer in the audience felt that she or he could identify with the secret sorrows of Barnabas Collins.
I'm phrasing this very awkwardly, but I do think that this was what made Frid's work in the role so brilliantly memorable. When he was on with the lines, no question about it, the Voice was a truly magnifcent instrument. One of the best known scenes is the original 1967 recounting of Josette's death, but there were many other moments throughout his four years in the role.
I just post this because although I do think that Barnabas had a special appeal for gay children and older gay men as well, I can see how the qualities of Frid's performance gave the character an appeal that touched many people across generations, sexualities, etc.
In particular during 1795, the sadness in Barnabas' eyes was heartbreaking, the brilliance of Frid hypnotic!
Anyone who felt like they didn't quite "fit in" could relate to the tragic plight of Barnabas Collins.
David
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I agree whole-heartedly about Frid's overall performance. His voice is magnetic, hypnotic, powerful -- all sorts of adjectives come to mind. As for his expressions, let's just say, the man is a master!
About the lesbian question. Like Nancy, I am not a lesbian. I do, however, have several friends who are. While it's so difficult, maybe even foolish, to generalize, my friends do admire powerful women. In fact, many of them are powerful women. As a straight woman, I, too, find that much more attractive than some simpering, whiny, "helpless" female.
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Me too...
And thanks, David, a hopeful note in a generally dismal situation....
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Interestingly, the only person I had a crush on was TLATKLS. I still do. I had the opportunity to meet quite a few of the handsome menfolk from DS when I went to my one and only festival (in 2003), but the only time I almost passed out was when I got to meet her. Go figure.
Gerard
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gerard,
i hear you.cute as some of them are i don't really have a "crush" on any of the male actors on the show but i'm totally smitten by alexandra moltke. [love10]
again,go figure.
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Yes, I'm gay, and for me the appeal is definitely centered on the boys like Chris Jennings, whose lives are ruined by a secret part of themselves which they can reveal to no one, and which makes relationships with the women of collinwood impossible, tragic passages of wasted hope. Of course, on the show, they only use metaphors for homosexuality, just like supernatural metaphors are used for so much child abuse and trauma.
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That was my first thought. Though the many other insights posted here are well said and appreciated. But ahhh, that beefy Jennings charm....
There just isn't any other word for it, but Vampire Tom was .... hot ....
yep, the jennings.......
but, i always thought that julia was lesbian, due to the fact that she was in love with something she would never have and yet always seemed to gravitate to the young women in their nighties to help them out. also, who was petofi's little bytch, the guy with the "dancing lady" he was definietly GAY. there were more, but can't think of any now. (i was always concerned about david growing up--would he be GAY?)
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What Willie Loomis says makes perfect sense, LOL!
I think that Crazy Jenny screaming "And you were wearing MY GREEN DRESS!!!!" is a line loaded with drag queen subtext!
David
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I threw a party ten or so years back with my then-roommate (a gay man). We had videos playing on both televisions in the house - the living room one was running Russ Meyers movies and the television in my bedroom was running "Dark Shadows", both with the sound turned down, since we had party music on.
As the party was winding down, I noticed that several of my roommate's friends (all gay men) had congregated in my room, turned up the sound, and were watching DS. One of the guys is a NYC DJ. He said that all of his NYC friends were watching it on the Sci Fi Channel at that time, and they all found it fabulous. Of course, I had to agree. We ended up hootin' and hollerin' (as we call it here down South) through several episodes. It was great fun.
Dark Shadows has many qualities that I'd think gay people would relate to. The high drama, the Gothic aesthetic, the divas, the attractive young men, and of course the subtext inherent in the plight of Barnabas Collins - it's all been mentioned here. Overall it offers an escape to a strange, exotic world that's really like nothing else - surely that must appeal to lots of gay people.
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The word "subtext" is used in different fandoms (ex: Xena). Is this supposed to mean something intentional on the part of writers, or just something that can be read into it? I'm big on defining my terms lately.
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Gothick's article, rough draft or not, sounds fascinating. Please let us know when/where to find the essay once it's posted! I've never been able to analyze exactly why the gothic genre has always appealed to me, nor even been able to reliably define "gothic," despite having a literary background. I know it when I see it, but I'm not able to really define it.
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I am still trying to find that zine "The Secret Room" its most likely deep in some box in the closet.
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I am still trying to find that zine "The Secret Room" its most likely deep in some box in the closet.
Get out the blueprints for your house or building... it may be in a secret room. It may vaporize moments before you find it, though, and set up a secret lair elsewhere.
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Or you may find that 'zine in a playroom that can only be reached via your own personal "stairway through time!"
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Or you may find that 'zine in a playroom that can only be reached via your own personal "stairway through time!"
Now that's far-fetched. I suggest you stick with my sensible theory about the secret room.
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Try the locked box on top of your armoire.
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Maybe in got zapped over to Parallel Time.
As soon as the room changes you should be able to find it.
David
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Maybe in got zapped over to Parallel Time.
As soon as the room changes you should be able to find it.
Maybe Lamar Trask fell onto it when he died, and maybe it got buried with him. I presume he was buried.... somehow, someplace....
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It's hidden in the grandfather clock ....:D
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I finally went looking and found the article. Here it is in full:
WHY I THINK DARK SHADOWS ATTRACTS GAYS AND OTHER MINORITIES.
Many characters on Dark Shadows fall into minority groups. many of these people are in minority groups due to an affliction they have, whether it be vampirism, werewolfism, possessions, etc. Many of the fans seem to be able to identify with these characters for whatever affliction they may have, or for whatever minority group they may belong.
Certainly handicapped people & obese people feel the affliction mentioned above, If they could cure their blindness, eating disorder, paralysis, etc., they could live normal lives, and these very people see that if the characters could cure their vampirism, werewolfism, etc., they could have normal lives as well.
Gays I think tend to identify with Barnabas for many reasons. Here is a man who may not like what he is but has to submit to it. I think many gay people feel the same way about their sexuality. he is a man that despite what he is has been able to gain the love, trust, & friendship of all those around him even the ones who know of his "secret". gays have a "secret" and they long for the kind of relationships Barnabas has with his family. The want the acceptance he is able to have, despite what he is. Barnabas is also a hero. He is able to overcome his "problem" to do great things. he is also able to achieve almost all of his goals, or nearly so, that he is successful, even if his goal is just barely missed being 100% achieved. Something we can all identity with. And love... Barnabas Collins & love. Gays I think are really identified with this aspect. gays are not known for their long term relationships. Of course this sometimes happens, but often as not our love affairs do not last that long. Neither do Barnabas'. For one reason or another, often due to the actions of others, he loses the love he has sought. he loses it, & we can not only identify with what he is feeling, but often by the same actions. How often have we felt we have lost the love of our lives due to someone else's actions? Yet, barnaba is able to go on with his life, for better or worse, & i think that is something we all wish we could do, or at least hope we are doing.
I also think the fans identify with the ones who get hurt, are taken away, the object of someone else's love, & we, like them, swept away like Josette, etc.
Certainly the gays & handicapped alike envy Angelique. What we could do if we had her powers! We could make ourselves whole. We would be cured. We would destroy our enemies. We could get the ones we love. Then again, Angeliques' power betrays her, & she winds up not getting what she desperately wanted. How many of us feel this way? That no matter what lengths we went to, no matter how good we planned, things for one reason or another just didnt work out & we get screwed in the end.
Gays will certaily feel affinity for Elizabeth Collins Stoddard, hiding that "secret" for 18 years.
And what of Julia Hoffman? Certainly gays know what she must be going through every time she looks at Barnabas with those "I love you" eyes & he simply ignores her. Don't we all have stories like that to tell from our own lives? You do everything in the world for a person & they ignore the fact that you love them. And what of the other side of the coin?
Barnabas is fully aware of how Julia feels, and yet he ignores it because he she is just not exactly what he is looking for in a relationship. He is not attracted to her. He has been hurt by another lost love and has not gotten over that. He thinks the world of Julia and would do almost anything for her; she is his greatest friend, but...love, the way Julia wants it, is never to be...probably. I think many gays have this sort of thing in their lives. There's always someone who wants you that, even though you may be desperate for love yourself, you simply are not attracted to them in that way, & probably never will be. Perhaps you will be someday when you have gotten over the broken heart you're nursing from your lover of three years ago, but certainly not now.
These are some of the main reasons I feel that DARK SHADOWS attracts gays & other minorities. The show may have bad sets, at times horrific make up, blown lines, sorry acting, shitty video quality, but what has always attracted the fans has been the mood, the tone, the writing, THE STORY. There's the ticket. The Story. We see things in it that reflect things in our own lives, often to a frightening close proximity. I think handicapped persons & gays especially fall into thses categories for some of the reasons listed above. These groups often fall into fandom of T.V. shows & movies, but a high number to seem to be attracted to DARK SHADOWS. I think the show not only lets you escape from your own world, but lets you live out part of your world in a way you wish you yourself could.
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See, I told you it was in the grandfather clock .... [snow_grin]
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I think the sets and production values were great considering their workload.
Anyway, well said, and you could broaden that out to severely alienated people of all kinds. Now, people of subsequent generations get the impression that the 1960s was dominated by hippies and war protests and drugs and psychadelic music, but that was all an underground "fringe" thing, formed by a lot of kids who grew up isolated in flat, empty, conformist suburbia, a culture that could be brutal, behind closed doors, in how it tried to enforce that conformity on their kids.
The Barnabas story was very affecting for these people, too. It's too bad the counter-culture didn't connect with gays more than it did back then.
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I'm sorry, but that essay is a lot of shameful, self hating shit.
Everyone I know is perfectly happy to be gay.
As kids we were in the closet, as is Barnabas, so I can see that aspect of relating to it.
But all that self hating crap is for the birds.
And I know PLENTY of long term gay couples.
SHAME on that writer.
I met him a few times.
He told me that he thought all DS fans had "something
wrong" with them.
Shame on him.
David
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I'm sorry, but that essay is a lot of shameful, self hating shit.
Everyone I know is perfectly happy to be gay.
As kids we were in the closet, as is Barnabas, so I can see that aspect of relating to it.
But all that self hating crap is for the birds.
And I know PLENTY of long term gay couples.
SHAME on that writer.
I met him a few times.
He told me that he thought all DS fans had "something
wrong" with them.
Shame on him.
David... respectfully...
That last bit about DS fans having something wrong with them, that's bad... but I don't get your hostility toward the rest of what he said. Most of what was said came out of real personal feelings, which he then generalized to include gays overall, and if he generalized too much, then fine, he made a mistake. You're making sweeping generalizations based on your personal experience, too.
"Everyone I know is perfectly happy to be gay." In this society? Where so many different kinds of people are shamed over what they are? Everyone you personally know isn't everybody. And we're not talking about grown-ups who have made their adjustments to life and society, but kids growing up on DS. The most troubling thing here is that you seem to feel it's a crime or a sign of something horribly wrong with a person to be insecure, or to be "unhappy". It's not.
There wasn't self-hatred in the article. You know this person to some extent, so you have that to go by, but it didn't make its way into print. I just saw his acknowledgement of feelings of isolation and alienation. And should someone be attacked for "self-hatred"? I'd think sympathy is the right response to that, and maybe support.
My response to the comments about gays not having long-term relationships was to say... all groups have that problem. If gays were the exception, that would be remarkable.
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Magnus, just as respectfully,
because you're a good guy.
the whole idea that gays are unhappy to be who we are is a stereotype that perpetuates those very feelings.
The gay rights movement began in NYC in 1969 when gays at the Stonewall Bar stood up to police brutality & said "no more!"
Those rioters, some of whom were drag queens, stood up because they liked who they were & were tired of being told that they were inferior.
20 years later, a writer speculated that they actually rioted because Judy Garland had just died.
Gimme a break!
It's time to stop perpetuating the myth that we're all unhappy.
May I suggest that you check out the new film Small Town Gay Bar, out on DVD & airing on Showtime.
Even in the Bible Belt, gays/lesbians/bisexuals/transgenders
are challenging that myth.
Getting Off Soap Box,
David
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Magnus, just as respectfully,
because you're a good guy.
Thanks! Back at you.
The truth lies inbetween. I can tell. When different people are telling me different or opposite heartfelt things that come out of their personal lives, both have to be right.
All I had to do was not to like sports in school, and that led to building contempt and hounding and harrassment, which turned into a tidal wave of anti-gay epithets by high school. I was never gay, and please don't think I'm saying that it would have been more justified if it were done to someone who was. My point is that it doesn't take much to trigger this sort of thing, and some very bad effects from this will be with me to some extent for my whole life. So, people get damaged. A sense of inferiority can become so ingrained that it's a wound that never completely heals. You get older, you know your worth eventually, but that dark area is always lurking someplace.
I'm vaguely aware of the background you're giving me. Millions of people are unhappy to be who they are, or what they think they are because of conditioning from others. I think your position and Joeytrom's need to be amalgamated.
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Magnus, I'll post a thoughtful response to you tomorrow~~some thought required.
But one thing needs to be clarified right away:
Joey Trom, who I knew during my NYC days, is not the author of that essay.
Joey merely posted it at the board..
David
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David,
Another clarification-- the fan you're speaking about published the article in his zine but did not write it. Gothick did.
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OOOOOPS!
open mouth, insert foot!
I do recall now that it was Gothick who said he authored the essay, many posts back.
No disrespect meant to him, he's one of the best people here.
If he's willing, I'd be curious to know what Gothick was going through when he wrote the piece, & what changes he underwent over the years.
Here at the Board, he certainly comes across as someone who's comfortable in his own skin.
Now, the publisher of that zine, that's another story.
I recall him well from 80s fests.
He really told me that DS fans, and gays in general, all had "something wrong" with them.
The gay activist in me fumes at attitudes like that, even more so when it comes from someone gay!
David
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Looking through "The Secret Room", it wasn't as good as I remembered after all these years. It was a thin zine with one short fan fiction and two essays about gays & DS. The second essay is too long to write & I will have to have that scanned at work as I dont have a scanner at home anymore.
There was also a commentary from the publisher complaining that the Sci Fi Channel had DS, as not too many fans had access to it, and DS should have been placed on another station.
The publisher made it appear he wrote that essay on gays & DS.
I see now why there never wasn't a second issue.
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Just a further clarification--that article wasn't by me. Sorry for the confusion. (I was on the Boards briefly last night and tried to post that this wasn't my essay, but my attempt to post bounced due to a stupid bit of software wank.)
I'm pretty sure that the article Joey posted WAS by the editor of the zine. I vaguely recall having seen this somewhere before. In an academic book published ca. 1999 on media fandoms, fan fiction, "slash," etc. there was an article about the gay contingent in DS fandom that may have cited some of this, which may have been where I saw it before--I honestly can't recall.
cheers, G.
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I'm looking at the article again and laughing--I would never use language such as "we get screwed in the end" in something meant for print publication, even in a draft.
Note to Joeytron: do you own a copy of the zine itself? I've never seen how it looked.
G.
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I think it's the author who's hiding in the secret room, and will vanish once he's discovered....
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Just a further clarification--that article wasn't by me. Sorry for the confusion.
AAAAAHHHHHH!
It did lack imagination, substance and scholarship, unlike your usual writing.
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I'm looking at the article again and laughing--I would never use language such as "we get screwed in the end" in something meant for print publication, even in a draft.
Actually, that's but one example of language you would never use - at least not sober. [snow_rolleyes] While I read the article last night thinking that perhaps it had been written by you, I kept asking myself, "Was he drunk when he wrote this?" because it so did not come off as your natural writing or even speaking voice. Now I know why. [snow_wink] And quite honestly, you don't know how relieved I am. [snow_cheesy]
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David, the writer of the article you are talking about is a friend of mine. He does not profess to be a writer, or even a good writer. You also take him deadly serious. Yes, he wanted to try publishing a zine about something that mattered to him as a gay man who grew up in a rural part of Texas where hunting and other so-called manly pursuits tested your mettle as a "real man." Consequently, my friend got to know other gay men in his situation when he became involved with the only gay bar/lounge in his area and worked there for many years. He learned to overcome the prejudice he had against himself and be happy for who he is.
My friend also has spent thousands of dollars buying DS stuff, including props from the 1991 DS series. We are talking something like $20,000 so obviously he could not be serious in saying something is wrong with DS fans. He would have been talking about himself with his usual dry humor.
Furthermore, there are many gays who do grow up hating themselves (there are people who grow up hating themselves without being gay too) for who they are. I have a family member who turned to alcohol because of how he felt about himself as a gay man. It was horrible. Fortunately, he has been sober for five years now and very proud of who he is. It's wonderful if you never had to deal with self-hatred or denial but not every gay person skipped over that. Just among people I know I can give you several examples.
But back to the zine - my friend didn't do anymore because he wasn't cut out to be an editor, writer or publisher. He recognized that. He tried something and it didn't work out. His being very bad at answering inquiries alone doomed any future publication.
There are plenty of gay couples who are together for all of their lives. There are plenty who are not. The same is true of straight couples. My friend knew many plain truths about what it's like living as an openly gay man and part of a gay couple in a very rural area.
But know this - he is a great guy, always there for his friends, mentors those who are trying to come out of the closet, and does not post negative things about anybody. He's a very sweet man. He loves to tease and I think you took what he said seriously when he wasn't serious since he himself has spent $20,00 on DS memorabilia in a two year period. That doesn't put him in the driver's seat of criticizing anyone for being obsessive! [snow_silly]
I'm unhappy to see him ridiculed for a project he tried out to see if it was something he could do because it would matter to people. [snow_cry]
Nancy
I'm sorry, but that essay is a lot of shameful, self hating shit.
Everyone I know is perfectly happy to be gay.
As kids we were in the closet, as is Barnabas, so I can see that aspect of relating to it.
But all that self hating crap is for the birds.
And I know PLENTY of long term gay couples.
SHAME on that writer.
I met him a few times.
He told me that he thought all DS fans had "something
wrong" with them.
Shame on him.
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Nancy, I would NEVER put the dude down for buying memorabilia, I have plenty of my own.
I do recall him being a polite & friendly guy.
But I also recall him telling me~~more than once~~that all gays & all DS fans had "something wrong with them."
He also told me that no one would ever go to a fest or be involved in DS unless they "couldn't fit into society."
I'm sorry Nancy, you know I have a lot of respect for you.
But comments like that aren't OK.
I was raised an Orthodox Jew.
I went to high school in the same neighborhood where Saturday Night Fever was shot.
I know about anti-gay hate all too well.
Comments like "there's something wrong with all gays"
only serves to enable the anti-gay hate that he & I both experienced.
Having said that, I'm glad he's learned to feel better about himself. Everyone deserves that.
And owning props from either DS series would be mucho cool!
David
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I like people who don't fit into society.
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Nancy, I would NEVER put the dude down for buying memorabilia, I have plenty of my own.
I do recall him being a polite & friendly guy.
But I also recall him telling me~~more than once~~that all gays & all DS fans had "something wrong with them."
He also told me that no one would ever go to a fest or be involved in DS unless they "couldn't fit into society."
I'm sorry Nancy, you know I have a lot of respect for you.
But comments like that aren't OK.
Well, as I actually know the man and have known him for more than fifteen years, I will stick with my perception.
Nancy
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So do I. I would consider it a compliment.
Nancy
I like people who don't fit into society.
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The Secret Room front & back covers
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There's a big difference with not wanting to fit in and not being able to.
I like being around people who are diverse, creative, and don't fit into a cookie cutter mold.
Most people I know fit into this category.
But none are people I'd say have "something wrong with them'
David
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Here are pages 1 & 2 of the second Gay/DS essay.
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Here are pages 3 & 4
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And finally here are pages 5 & 6.
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Thanks Joeytrom for taking the time to scan the zine and share it with us. [snow_smiley]
As for all the discussion about people having something wrong with them, well, it probably is true in the sense that everyone has some sort of flaw(s) in their personality. There's no such things as a perfect human being. There's even a theory that our flaws tend to bind our relationships more than our strengths do. I don't know. But, just as is the case with fiction in general and DS in particular, in the real world it's flawed individuals who are the most fascinating. And honestly, who would even want to be around perfection 24/7? That would be awfully dull...
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...Of course, on the show, they only use metaphors for homosexuality, just like supernatural metaphors are used for so much child abuse and trauma.
The word "subtext" is used in different fandoms (ex: Xena). Is this supposed to mean something intentional on the part of writers, or just something that can be read into it? I'm big on defining my terms lately.
I agree that DS is ripe with characters and situations that can be seen as metaphors for homosexuality, as well as many other types of experiences, but I doubt they were written into the show intentionally.
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Thank you, Joeytrom!
For anyone downloading the jpegs, keep in mind that pages 3 & 4 are actually 5 & 6, and vice versa.
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Barnabas, Quentin, Angelique being in "the closet" about their immortality, Julia in "the closet" about loving Barnabas.
These are obvious if unintentional metaphors.
David
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I agree that DS is ripe with characters and situations that can be seen as metaphors for homosexuality, as well as many other types of experiences, but I doubt they [the metaphors] were written into the show intentionally. *
*edited for clarity
These are obvious if unintentional metaphors.
Agreed.
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(Please feel free to point out mistakes, though I doubt this can have anywhere near as many typos as it did in print.)
The Beckoning Strangeness
Notes Towards a Gay Critique of Dark Shadows
by S. R. Shutt
The past, it has been said, is another country. So often do we visit those foreign shores in memory that the pathways thither ought by rights to be familiar rather than strange. Nevertheless, when the destination is a place called Dark Shadows, it is precisely the strangeness, the sinister, the secret, that delights and increases and inevitably lures one back.
For a child growing up “different” in the late 1960s—or, to be more exact, a ten-year-old budding queer in 1968—Dark Shadows beckoned as a garden of respite and refuge, a deliciously Gothic refuge from an otherwise dreary and hostile world. Though assuredly not without its terrors, Collinwood brought comfort in the companionship of Barnabas and Julia, spectacle in the occult triumphs and defeats of Angelique, dark villainy in the designs of Count Petofi (a personal favorite) and Reverend Trask, pathos and passion in the struggles of Victoria and Maggie, Quentin and Chris, each in their own way seeking a better life. There was Elizabeth’s tragic dignity, Roger’s acid wit, Carolyn’s pert curiosity, the brave wisdom of Professor Stokes in the face of every supernatural menace known to man. There was that extraordinary music, unlike anything ever heard before or since. Like Grayson Hall’s exquisitely Gothic, expressive face, the visible grandeur of Collinwood and Barnabas’ mesmerizing, sonorous voice, the music was one of the magical things that elevated one into another world when watching Dark Shadows.
“Watch” is far too passive a word, though, to describe how we experienced Dark Shadows. Jonathan Frid has said, jestingly, that we (the viewers) were the ones doing the acting. Though that was hardly true, it is true that the audience involved themselves in the show so completely that an entire imaginary universe worthy of Borges himself, came into fantastic life within the cramped confines of that now-legendary studio at 24 West 53rd Street. Despite all the flubs and confusion people laugh at today, to a child’s eye this was a darkly enthralling world of utterly convincing reality. To call the series’ cancellation in April 1971 traumatic would be something of an understatement. It was the eve of my 13th birthday; the door in the wall that led to the secret garden had been locked forever. Adulthood loomed, perilously, and with decidedly few blandishments, on the horizon.
Watching Dark Shadows again in the Nineties as an adult has proven a much different, though no less enthralling experience.
“A Stranger who is not a stranger, with a soul shaped by the far place from which” I have come, as a gay man (and an academic, to boot) passionately interested in questions of what in the Seventies was called the “gay sensibility”—now more commonly spoken of as “queer culture”—I find myself astonished, beguiled, and enraptured all over again by the unique vitality of the Dark Shadows aesthetic. The delirious (yet often carefully crafted) mannerism that infuses the whole series, though it certainly has roots in everything from Gothic literary conventions (from Poe to Lovecraft) to the penumbral photography of 1940’s, 50’s, and 60’s horror movies (from Val Lewton to Mario Bava), maintains, above all the eclectic reconfigurations of style, a verve and an elan that transcend the iconic conventions of 1960s camp theater. Because it was made with complete seriousness and solemn dedication to presenting something completely new in the constricted medium of television, DS transcends “camp” even as it embodies what Susan Sontag declared to be the fundamental truth of Camp—Camp as a theatre of pure style.
…Camp rests on innocence. …In naïve, or pure Camp, the essential element is seriousness, a seriousness that fails. Of course, not all seriousness that fails can be redeemed as Camp. Only that which has the proper mixture of the exaggerated, the fantastic, the passionate, and the naïve. …The hallmark of Camp is the spirit of extravagance. (Susan Sontag, Notes on “Camp,” In the Susan Sontag Reader (NY: Farrar, Straus, Giroux, 1982, pp. 111-112))
She postulated further that ‘pure’ Camp—the theater of the fantastic, the passionate, and the naïve—represents the triumph of style over content. “Camp is a vision of the world in terms of style—but a particular kind of style.” (ibid., p. 108) According to her, Camp mirrors gay sensibility to the extent that it “is a solvent of morality.” These ideas seem to me to be very suggestive pointers toward a way of analyzing the style of Dark Shadows. Dark Shadows, in its kaleidoscopic transmutations, is by turns both serious and playful, extravagant and naïve, passionate and yet morally ambiguous (especially in the development of Barnabas). The stories often represent the triumphs of characterizations over plot, a twist in the narrative that seems absurd in a summary acquires depth and logic in light of the personalities with which the actors infuse their characters. These are all elements which locate Dark Shadows firmly within the theater of gay sensibility—call it Camp if you will—and which assure its incorporation into the pantheon of queer culture.
Gregory Woods declared in his pathbreaking study Articulate Flesh: Male Homoeroticism and Modern Poetry (Yale University Press, 1987) that any work of art may be given a gay reading (or a gay interpretation) regardless of the sexual orientation of its author. In the culture being created by the gay community that has formed since the Stonewall Riots of 1969, there is an unquestionably and unfolding sensibility that will respond to—and cherish—Dark Shadows with a sensitivity and a passion that will be distinct from the conventional viewer’s response to the series.
For many gay viewers, the character of Barnabas provides a kind of touchstone, even an Everyman, through whose eyes they view the action of the entire series. As an outsider, Barnabas acts out in his own life the sense of displacement, unease, and exile that many gay youths felt growing up in the late Sixties and Seventies, and the kind of “difference” that many gay people still feel in Nineties America. The rawness, alternating with exquisite poise, that we see in Jonathan Frid’s portrayal of Barnabas, gives the character a kind of wounded, vulnerable openness that still seems unique in the television universe. Regardless of the sexuality assigned by the plot to Barnabas, his profound loneliness, and poignant struggle to recover his humanity in the midst of a dark and hostile cosmos, make him truly a gay Everyman.
As a child, I never found Quentin to be nearly as intriguing as Barnabas, and as an adult I would locate the lack of sympathy in Quentin's very different response to his curse. In 1897, Quentin cried out, “I want to be normal again. I want to be decent again.” In 19769-70, his amnesia showed just how desperate he was to return to “normal” life. Though he ultimately struggled to redeem himself, his character displayed a certain ruthlessness that the writers rapidly wrote out of Barnabas, in favor of a more ambivalent (and compassionate) moral stance. As a Lothario—and, ironically, a champion of the value of “decency”—Quentin is bound to seem less attractive to the gay viewer. (Gay fans of Quentin—I’m waiting to hear form you!)
A character with whom I found an extraordinary resonance as a child was Dr. Julia Hoffman, and still today Grayson Hall’s theatrical brilliance, her energy, wit, and verve, are essential facets of Dark Shadows’ continuing appeal. As Julia, she made a mark because her strength and loyalty in the face of daily frustration with Barnabas’ waywardness, proved to be prophetic of the experience of unrequited love in adulthood.
Lara Parker was another actress whose mere presence onscreen was enough to charge the atmosphere with a very exciting energy. In her memoir, “Out of Angelique’s Shadow,” she advances her own thought in retrospect that the characters and situations in DS proved so compelling to viewers because they responded to Jungian archetypes, such as those said to be reflected in mythology and classical drama. Though this idea of archetypes is a fascinating one, it seems to me to deprecate the very particular qualities each actor and actress on Dark Shadows brought to their portrayals of the people in the stories. We cared—and continue to care—so much about Barnabas, Julia, Angelique and the others not because they are iconic figures in some primeval mythic drama, but because they are complex individuals whose characters are fleshed out with unusual thoroughness in the leisurely narrative flow of the program. As a soap opera, DS was uniquely able to achieve that haunting sensation of gradually building menace so characteristic of the late Victorian ghost story—a brooding atmosphere in which the characters grew and gradually became real to us in all their extravagance, passion, and innocence.
In this essay, I have ventured from a recollection of my childhood love of Dark Shadows toward a more mature appreciation of the world created by the program. My fundamental contention remains that gay cultural/critical perspective offers an unusually effective way of explaining why Dark Shadows has remained so compelling a part of all our lives. I’m not simply trying to defend or analyze Dark Shadows; I’m determined to celebrate it as an extraordinarily forward-looking event in the history of American television, and a legacy that will grow in richness and inspiration over the years. If, as Jonathan Frid has said, the show has entered the stream of American folklore, it has certainly become an integral part of the gay community’s cultural memory as well; as of this writing, a live soap opera performed in a gay bar in New York City reportedly includes among its situations “Barnabas Collins walking into a gay bar in Twin Peaks.” Let us hope that the Secret Room provides a much-needed space for gay viewers to express, at long last, the very personal meaning Dark Shadows has had for us, in all its complex and varied dimensions.
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There's a big difference with not wanting to fit in and not being able to.
Both true in my case. Not wanting and not trying to conform to a soul-deadening majority culture doesn't mean that it's a free choice (I'm not capable of the required extreme personality makeover), or that the alienation doesn't hurt. We all need the support of a group, or most do.
I'm posting this even though my brains are especially fried now. I need to make myself sleep.
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Wow...awesome essay Steve!!
You've earned a golden Pepe award for that one...
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v706/dsbabe/pepe_award.png)
Wear it with pride, damnit! [wink]
And, I just wanted to comment that I too celebrate diversity. It's what makes each individual unique in this world that is most special. We can all learn from each other, in good times and in bad. For me personally, although I am now proud of who I am (certifiable Bisexual since birth,) growing up in an environment which did not support, condone, or acknowledge the GLBT community, combined with an inherited mental disorder (Bipolar) made it difficult for me to assimilate in the world as I grew up. After I graduated from High School I found DS (second generation fan here) and I found the show to be a respite for my oft disquiet mind and situation. I identified with the many characters on a symbolic level, could appreciate how they were dealing with one terrifying problem after another, and of course who could not appreciate the absolutely fascinating gothic, supernatural, and mysterious dramas played before me on the screen.
I don't believe the gay metaphors that we can find on the show were intentional on part of the writers, but I do think it is fun and healthy to find meaning in things and connect with others in ways that one can relate to, no matter where you are in life or what you believe in...that's one of the great things about art, literature, writing, and even this show, IMO. Through my involvement with a particular divine DS group, I have met met and become close friends with people I never would have found otherwise, people who have made a real difference in my life and have , in their own supportive way, helped me to take pride in who I am and strive to become a better person each day. It's not always easy, but such is life...
Dark Shadows DVD collection.....pricey, but worth it
The episodes....addictive and a blast to devour
The memories and people behind the fandom....priceless! :-*
And now back to your regularly scheduled debate.... [snow_smileydevil]
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Wow...awesome essay Steve!!
Agreed! Now there's the style of writing your admirers have come to know and thoroughly appreciate. [snow_wink]
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Good Golly Miss Midnite, did you TYPE that with your own fair hands??? You deserve a golden Naked Selby award for such lioness-worthy efforts!!
One mistake I spotted which I presume was in the original was that I know I described myself as a "budding ten year old" in 1968, not 1966, because I was about to turn ten when I started watching DS back in June of '68 (now THAT feels like another country).
I think the address of the studio got scrambled, too--presumably in the printed text.
Nancy, if you see this, I'm very sorry about the mean things we've written about your friend. I obviously never even met the man, and I do feel compassion for him based upon what you have written. I'm glad he's in a happier place now in his own life.
cheers, G.
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G, I don't mind the criticism of the article, how it is written, the zine itself - That's all fair game.
The comments directed towards his character and feelings about himself and the gay community is what I object to especially since the conclusions were dead wrong (no pun intended).
Nancy, if you see this, I'm very sorry about the mean things we've written about your friend. I obviously never even met the man, and I do feel compassion for him based upon what you have written. I'm glad he's in a happier place now in his own life.
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I'm heading out to meetings now, so I've only been able to skim Heather's post & Gothick's essay.
So far, they look like lovely sentiments.
I'll read them carefully & post more later, along with a response that I owe to Magnus Trask.
Nancy: I never meant to be mean.
I honestly wish the guy well, I'm honestly glad he's happier these days, and I truly recall him as being polite & friendly.
But the whole "We love DS because we're fat, ugly, disabled queers" is a sentiment that I really heard him~~and ohers~~express one time too many.
No mean spiritedness intended, but statements and attitudes like that must be condemed.
David
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Gothick,
As always, I am deeply impressed by your intelligent and engaging writing style.
Hexoxo,
Penny
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David, I like you and all but sometimes I think you deliberately look for the negative in a comment when it was never meant that way but in fun. I know that guy meant it in fun and I certainly do not want to see a teasing comment turned into the cornerstone for a rallying cry of all that's wrong with DS fandom. That's going too far. I say things like my friend did all the time to my DS friends and nobody takes it seriously. The same has been said to me. I would rather get involved and condemn other things having to do with the comfort and security of my community or my country and not what someone I don't know or care about spouts off about a soap opera convention.
Nancy
Nancy: I never meant to be mean.
I honestly wish the guy well, I'm honestly glad he's happier these days, and I truly recall him as being polite & friendly.
But the whole "We love DS because we're fat, ugly, disabled queers" is a sentiment that I really heard him~~and ohers~~express one time too many.
No mean spiritedness intended, but statements and attitudes like that must be condemed.
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It's his right to say it, David! If that is how he describes his interest in DS, so what? Obviously one person can't speak for every "queer" in fandom or any other fan. If you do not share that view, obviously you do not, then you express it. But he has the right to describe his own view as to why he is into fandom or why gays, from his experience, are into the fandom. Everyone doesn't agree with a viewpoint or relate to one's personal experience. Just because someone like my friend has a viewpoint that you don't share doesn't mean you will combust and the ashes will be thrown to the wind. Remember, my friend was speaking from his own esperience and friendships in fandom. Your experiences have been different.
Nancy
But the whole "We love DS because we're fat, ugly, disabled queers" is a sentiment that I really heard him~~and ohers~~express one time too many.
No mean spiritedness intended, but statements and attitudes like that must be condemed.
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Good Golly Miss Midnite, did you TYPE that with your own fair hands??? You deserve a golden Naked Selby award for such lioness-worthy efforts!!
Why thank you!!
One mistake I spotted which I presume was in the original was that I know I described myself as a "budding ten year old" in 1968, not 1966, because I was about to turn ten when I started watching DS back in June of '68 (now THAT feels like another country).
I think the address of the studio got scrambled, too--presumably in the printed text.
Oops. It now says 1968. I realize now that it's an 8, and should have known better because *I* was 10 when DS premiered, hee hee.
There's no doubt that the studio address reads as 64th Street, but I changed it to 53rd.
The punctuation was hardest to read.
This has been mentioned before, but I think it bears repeating: Just because a person's name isn't given, if enough information is provided for readers to figure out exactly whom you're speaking about, you're not writing about an anonymous person. The dance around the editor's/author's name is getting a little silly; even the readers who don't already know who published "The Secret Room" can easily ascertain his identity with a simple Google search.
We've allowed the discussion of Mr. Hutcheson's public views on gay fandom because he edited a gay DS zine, same as we allowed the debate when ShadowGram's choices were called into question. Posters have presented valid points, but the discussion has long since become repetitive. So, as always, if you're not adding something new to what you've already said, provided it won't be gossip or innuendo (or veer off-topic), please reconsider before clicking the post button or risk a moderator's click of the delete button. Thanks.
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A couple of brief ideas I'll throw in here:
"We love DS because we're fat, ugly, disabled queers"
Not the actual words used, I'm guessing.
It's a sort of social blunder I've often made, which I have to keep looking out for, to include others in my self-deprecating humor. Mr. H may have intended to do a passing brief joke at his own expense, basically, and broadened it out to include a group he was part of. It's a mistake because people often don't take such a remark in the spirit intended. Some people's dry delivery can often leave a wrong impression too.
I wouldn't take part in continuing to talk about Mr. H behind his back (sorry), except to point out things that might help prevent misunderstandings in the future.
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The Beckoning Strangeness
Notes Towards a Gay Critique of Dark Shadows
by S. R. Shutt
- one of the finest pieces of DS criticism I've ever read. Gothick, my hat is off to you -
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One thing I tried to do in that article was to pull apart the whole notion of "Camp" and DS--I thought Sontag's work pointed to a way of thinking about the over-the-top semi-demented proceedings on the show that captured just how magical it all was. And the innate poetry of some of the most extreme scenes and moments on DS and how this fits into the notion of "gay sensibility" which can be seen as a strongly creative force (albeit often underground) in the arts scene of the 20th century.
All rather a heady brew to bring to the table with our favorite show, perhaps; I'm not sure the result is a success. I have only vague memories now of what was going through my head when I wrote this (it was nearly 15 years ago), but I do remember that I wanted to tighten it up a bit. I also wanted to write more about Julia ... writing this article probably did lead me to take on the Grayson project.
cheers, G.
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Had a busy week, but I finally found a moment to return to this thread.
Nancy:
you've been a true friend, & I respect you a lot.
His right to say it, my right to express my displeasure,
you're right to chastise me.
It's all part of open discusions in a free society.
I opened myself up to your comments by posting my feelings on the board, just as Mr H opened himself up when he made comments that, frankly, disgusted a lot of people.
The whole idea that all DS fans are fat, ugly, gay, or sexually repressed, and that these are our reasons for loving DS, was rampant in the 80s.
In my humble opinion, we need less of that kind of talk and more of the heartfelt, uplifting sentiments that Heather & Magnus Trask expressed in their posts.
We also need more of the kind of brilliance Steve shows in his essay.
When I was a fest attendee, many moons ago, I was subjected to a lot of abuse & false, sexually graphic rumor mongering from closet cases who couldn't deal with my being an out, loud gay activist.
Many of them bought into Mr H's description of fandom hook, line & sinker.
It's time to say no to that mentalty and lift ourselves up (which we've been doing for years at this board)
On that note, I'm now going to go read my favorite poem:
Rise by Maya Angelou.
And I Rise,
David
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Thanks David.
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You May Write Me Down In History
With Your Bitter, Twisted Lies
You May Trod Me in the Very Dirt
Still, Like Dust, I Rise
~~~~from Still I Rise
by Maya Angelou
And this is my response to those 1980s Fest attendees who put me down for being openly gay even then.
This is also my response to those I knew in the 1960s who made fun of me and tried to deny me the pleasure I got~~and still get~~from watching Dark Shadows.
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This is an interesting topic, but I do have to wonder about someone who would pay 20,000 in two years for DS merchandise--think of all the good one could do with that much money!!
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Well, if one is spending that sort of money at Fest auctions, then the vast majority of it is going to charity.
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This is an interesting topic, but I do have to wonder about someone who would pay 20,000 in two years for DS merchandise--think of all the good one could do with that much money!!
If you cling to that line of logic, then I think you would also have to wonder why money was spent to make the series in the first place. A fair number of people in this world make a living via the sale of merchandise that others might consider frivolous.
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Hey, one man's trash is another's treasure. I just paid $26 for a copy of the original DS Cookbook on eBay. Some non-fans may shake their head at this, but it is a bit of original DS merchandising and I wanted to add it to my collection. On the other hand, the "Celebrity Cookbook" is probably more collectable at this point as it was done by the stars of DS and is out of print, with probably fewer copies made than the original 1970 book, which was released while DS was on the air.