adam and jeb

[michael c]

i recently completed dvd set 18 which takes us to about the mid-point of the leviathan episodes and introduces us to jebez hawkes.

i felt like this character's introduction was in many ways strikingly similar to the adam storyline.

obviously the surrounding situations were completely different but in many ways the two characters parallel one another.

both characters arrive in a "child-like" state(adam mentally and jeb physically)and rapidly achieve adulthood.
both characters are willful,impetuous and self-centered.they both develop intensely rivalrous relationships with barnabas who is in many ways responsible for their very existance.both are fixated on carolyn.both weild power by threatening people barnabas cares about.

in some ways this felt to me like a vastly different telling of the same basic story.

that said i like this storyline thus far more than i thought i would.i've always heard such negative things about it.
do i think that the plot is ridiculous?absolutely.but i'm enjoying it's telling.these episodes have a distict creepiness and tone that's all it's own.i love the antique shop set.i like that barnabas and julia are at odds again.i like frosty leviathan liz.

i hated those annoying leviathan brats.i think paul stoddard was something of a wasted opportunity.quentin seems adrift and without much purpose.

i'm only about half way through it so i'll save my final judgement(the later part of it does sound really dumb)but i enjoyed these episodes alot.

[arashi]

Good point! I never thought of that before but that really is a good comparison of the two. The storylines will rival each other in more ways than one soon...

[Barnabas'sBride]

I'd heard so many bad things about the Leviathan storyline that I was expecting something excrutiatingly awful. When I watched it, I didn't really get something excrutiatingly awful, just absolutely annoying. 

There are aspects that I enjoy - The Chris/Quentin/Julia stuff for one, but that's kind of a separate, smaller subplot and didn't have much to do with the Leviathans. I liked Paul Stoddard's return, but feel it was mostly wasted. Quentin got so little to do that it was a crime.

I loathed the antique shop. [spoiler]I was so happy when Barnabas burned it down.[/spoiler] I couldn't stand how much time was spent there. I didn't like Megan and Phillip and the kids. I liked the concept of the Leviathans even less. I just hated plain the plot. It seemed too scifi for DS and it just didn't work for me. And since it came after the entertaining 1897, it was so hard for me to get into.

At least the second half of the storyline doesn't have any more little Leviathan brats running around.... just the cheap, insufferable pig. But then again, he was about more than I could take... and there are a couple of twists in the storyline that I detest.

I'm going to have to watch it again, then watch the Adam storyline and see which one of those I like the least. I would have to make a pros and cons list. I can see the similiarities that you came up with!

[michael c]

i'm surprised myself that i liked these episodes.in general i prefer the earlier part of the show.
like i said i have only scene about half of it so i can't say yet what my opinion of it's totality is.

but i do know that i could never despise anything more than the adam storyline.it was almost a fatal blow for me.that it followed what i consider to be the show's best stuff made it even worse.i enjoyed 1897 but don't hold it in quite the high regard that i do 1795.

i made what was something of a mistake with the show.because i watched from the first episode i allowed myself to become very emotionally attatched to the original characters.especially vicki.so when the adam story came into the forefront and these characters were given very weak storylines i took it to heart.so after the adam storyline was over i vowed to watch the show with a different objectivity and take each storyline on it's own terms and not really compare it to the earlier part of the show because it just became so different.

[AndreDuPres]

The first part is excellent, IMO.  Very creepy and atmospheric.  I loved Megan, Philip, and the kids.  Paul Stoddard was wasted, but what little we saw of him was pretty good, especially in the "Ice Liz" episode that was in a thread awhile back.  The second half, on the other hand...it has its moments.  The latter half of Leviathan is of interest not the least because it's the last we see of [spoiler]the Angelique we know and love, who has evolved over the course of the show, because the Angelique of PT is a totally different character, and the Angelique of 1840 is actually of that time--she's had no time traveling experience.[/spoiler]  Some of the plot "twists" were highly stupid to say the least, and the "ick" factor was increased to the max [spoiler]like with the near-incestuous relationship of Jeb and Megan or the lurid werewolf-taming scene with Bruno.[/spoiler]

[Patti Feinberg]

I loathed the antique shop. [spoiler]I was so happy when Barnabas burned it down.[/spoiler]
I couldn't stand how much time was spent there. I didn't like Megan and Phillip and the kids. I liked the concept of the Leviathans even less. I just hated plain the plot. It seemed too scifi for DS and it just didn't work for me. And since it came after the entertaining 1897, it was so hard for me to get into.

BB...me too! I hated Megan & Philip. But, I loved 'mean' Barnabas and Liz was great. I'll admit, the first couple of times, being 'outside the door'...it did have a certain hook to it.

I felt sorry for Paul Stoddard. How do you think Liz would've behaved towards him without the Leviathan aspect?

Patti

[Barnabas'sBride]

Unfortunately, we'll never really know. I think she would have been pretty icy, even without being a Leviathan, but it would've been interesting to see regular Elizabeth have to deal with Paul wanting to be in Carolyn's life.

mscbryk - Though I don't think 1897 is as good as 1795, I genuinely liked the 1897 characters and I found it to be an incredibly fun storyline that's really kind of on its own in terms of DS. I think that's why I liked it so much. It really had a different feel to it.  So I think I would have found the transition to the Leviathans just as jarring as 1795 to Adam had I not been prepared beforehand. And even though I was prepared, it was still a struggle.

[BuzzH]

but i do know that i could never despise anything more than the adam storyline.it was almost a fatal blow for me.that it followed what i consider to be the show's best stuff made it even worse.i enjoyed 1897 but don't hold it in quite the high regard that i do 1795.

I agree the latter half of the 1968 plotline (Adam's demanding of a new mate) made me not want to continue w/the DVD's, even though I knew 1897 was just around the corner.  I just wasn't motivated all that much to watch those DVD's.  I *did* watch them eventually, to see the show in sequence, but it was a chore.  Now I happily pop in a DVD and lap up 1897!  Can't wait to see stuff I've never seen like Leviathan and 1970 PT.

Having recently watched some fan videos, a link to which you'll find in the calendar section (entitled 'Love is a Battlefield') on 1995, can't wait to see that either.  I've only seen the first episode of 1995 and didn't realize how close Barnabas and Julia seem to get in that mini-plotline.  They are almost like a bonafide soap couple if the video is any indication. 

I also agree that as much as I *do* like 1897, 1795 was better! 

[Gothick]

I personally find the final months of 1795 (1796??) a trial to sit through, with a few glowing exceptions such as the Bathia Mapes sequence, or [spoiler]the comeuppances of Aunt Abigail and Reverend Trask--I really need to run Abby's scene again just for Barn's immortal line, "FEEL THE FLESSSSHHHH!"[/spoiler]  The whole thing with Vicki's trial, her romance with Peter, the involvement of Noah, etc. seemed a considerable lowering of the dramatic pressure.  I do consider 1795 to have some moments that are up there with the finest of DS, and I understand that for MANY fans the storyline is their top favorite (I'm sure in particular for Barnabas/Josette 'shippers, of which I will freely admit I am not one) but for me it will never be among my favorites because of how badly the final two to three months of it drags for me.

Leviathan started out dark, grim and understated, with moments of odd lyricism (the Rime of the Leviathan, those weird dream sequences--I'm not counting Liz's here).  As we all know, the production office was avalanched with mail from fans protesting their hatred for the storyline in the most vitriolic language imaginable.  I think the fate of the antique shop was a direct response to fan complaints about the set which was widely despised, although I personally agree that it's very cool.

There is an abrupt shift in tone and the whole thing becomes wild and woolly until it reaches the "everything including the kitchen sink" phase, and then D. C. abruptly ordered the story wrapped up so that the movie shoot could begin.

One of the things I've thought about Leviathan for years is that it was an attempt to do something genuinely new with the characters and the show--and, to some extent, something never really done on television before.  DS had innovated previously with great success--the Phoenix storyline, the introduction of Barnabas, the time travel to 1795 were all brand new territory in television, particularly daytime television, at that point,  I think with Leviathan D. C. just tried something that his fan base was not prepared for.  The storyline went forward over and against the protests of his staff writers.  I do think there are some incredible moments, particularly in the first two months of the story.  After that, I think it's just fun to watch the fur fly, but I have very odd tastes (as if you all didn't notice!).

As for Jeb, cheap insufferable pig he may have been, but I think Pennock is compulsively watchable in the role.  I'm sure part of it is the clothes and the hair, which are just so groovy, y'know?

cheers, G.

[Raineypark]

"Groovy" barely describes it, G.  "Far Out Groovy" comes closer.....

Want my take on why so many fans couldn't get excited about the " Leviathan" arc?  I think it was because it was a switch from "gothic" to "science fiction" and the switch was not welcome.  Stoker's "Dracula" is absolutely gothic.  "Frankenstein", despite being written earlier than "Dracula", was the bridge of science fiction story told in gothic language.  "Leviathans" was a true science fiction tale and I think the fans simply missed the gothic overtones they expected from this show.

[Barnabas'sBride]

The whole thing with Vicki's trial, her romance with Peter, the involvement of Noah, etc. seemed a considerable lowering of the dramatic pressure.  I do consider 1795 to have some moments that are up there with the finest of DS, and I understand that for MANY fans the storyline is their top favorite (I'm sure in particular for Barnabas/Josette 'shippers, of which I will freely admit I am not one) but for me it will never be among my favorites because of how badly the final two to three months of it drags for me.

I don't care much for Vicki's trial, nor do I care much for Nathan & Millicent, but I think 1795 overall was well done on a character and dramatic level. I'm a Barnabas/Josette shipper (I think they had too few scenes together), but my feelings for 1795 go beyond the two of them. Though the trial and Nathan subplots weren't interesting to me, I tend to gloss over them because the most important aspect of 1795 and the reason for its existence - Barnabas becoming a vampire - was, for the most part, well done. Many scenes are gold.

Raineypark - That's a good point. The scifi was definitely not welcomed by me. Scifi and DS don't mesh to me. I love DS for it's gothic tone.

[BuzzH]

I personally find the final months of 1795 (1796??) a trial to sit through, with a few glowing exceptions such as the Bathia Mapes sequence, or [spoiler]the comeuppances of Aunt Abigail and Reverend Trask--I really need to run Abby's scene again just for Barn's immortal line, "FEEL THE FLESSSSHHHH!"[/spoiler]  The whole thing with Vicki's trial, her romance with Peter, the involvement of Noah, etc. seemed a considerable lowering of the dramatic pressure.  I do consider 1795 to have some moments that are up there with the finest of DS, and I understand that for MANY fans the storyline is their top favorite (I'm sure in particular for Barnabas/Josette 'shippers, of which I will freely admit I am not one) but for me it will never be among my favorites because of how badly the final two to three months of it drags for me.

Once Barnabas is a vampire and they started killing everyone off (Sarah, Josette, Naomi) I started to lose interest too, even though overall this is my favorite plotline.  Millicent was like fingernails on a blackboard IMHO and even though it *was* interesting to see Joel Crothers [spoiler]play an evil character, I never understood, nor will I ever understand, the motivation for him to become the bastard he was.  Granted, he starts off in a slightly lechorous way when he comes on to Vicki, but later he was a lot like Joe Haskel.  Good guy, true friend to Barnabas who helped Vicki etc...then whammo, he's a jackass.  Give us a reason at least, then it's easier for me to accept.[/spoiler]

But to sum up, I love 1795, but at the end, I too was ready for it to end and for Vicki to go back to 1968.  It *did* tend to drag there at the end.

[BuzzH]

I'm a Barnabas/Josette shipper (I think they had too few scenes together)

Here, here!  WAY too few scenes of them together!     [spoiler]They build up this atmosphere in 1967 when Barnabas is terrorizing Maggie and trying to turn her into Josette, then we don't get to hardly see the two of them together in life?  What the f*#$!   [/spoiler]

I mean, I wanted to see the romance and passion!   

[michael c]

i was enjoying this storyline but now i'm sort of worried...'wild and wooly' is not a place i enjoy on d.s..i prefer tighter storytelling.good or bad the first half of this storyline was pretty tight.

this all-over-the-place plotting is part of what drove me insane during the adam story and what wore on me slightly towards the middle/end of 1897.

b.t.w. i haven't yet experienced it myself but i gather that somebody refers to jeb as a "cheap insufferable pig!".

[Misa]

You are right about the lack of passion between Barnabas and Josette. After all the talk from Barnabas about Josette, you don't see that much of them being in love. This is the reason that I don't like 1795 as much as I love 1897.

The characters of Barnabas and Josette don't have enough time together to make you get the whole thing of Barnabas trying to make Maggie into Josette. I don't think that they had to show them making love (like they do on the 1991 show) to show that they are soul mates. In fact, I think that, that lessens the love. It makes it seem that Barnabas can't wait to jump her bones if they make love before they are married. I liked the innocence of Josette on the original show. But they needed to show them together more, to show this love that Barnabas was unable to give up.

Misa