Author Topic: OT - Roma/Gypsy Heritage  (Read 866 times)

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Offline Philippe Cordier

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OT - Roma/Gypsy Heritage
« on: May 29, 2018, 02:41:31 AM »
I'm posting this because if any of my friends might appreciate this, it would be Dark Shadows friends. I've met with only the mildest (to zero) interest from family members with the exception of my mother, who isn't actually affected by it. The subject of gypsies has come up many times on this forum, but I never dreamed I would have a personal connection to the Roma people. It's in the much distant past and I wouldn't want to overstate the case, either.

My genealogy pursuits in recent years have been supplemented by genetic genealogy, i.e. DNA testing. I'm no expert but I have given presentations and co-presented to genealogy groups on some basic aspects. Some results from testing have remained puzzling and it's easy to brush them off. One of these were filtered tests of my data that showed Spanish ancestry. Confident that I have no Spanish ancestry, I didn't pursue these curious findings for several years and only took another look at these results recently. They showed Basque, Andalucia, La Mancha, and a handful of other regions of Spain near the Bay of Biscay and along the French border. In my searches for what Haplogroups and subclades (more precise subcategories) these might include, I came upon an article from 2007 from a journal of genetic research that outlined 12 subclades that define the genetic profile of the Iberian (Spanish/Portuguese) Roma.

Almost in a spirit of following a lark, I began searching my data for each of these clades/SNPs (there is only one testing company that provides this analysis). Each one I checked for, it turned out I had – but the clincher was a specific subclade originating in northern India. For someone with Nordic and French heritage, that is hard to fathom. The administrator of this Haplogroup writes that in European ancestry, this subclade is found only in those with Roma heritage. So, yes, I have a gypsy ancestor somwhere, and more specifically one from Spain.

I've learned a lot about the Roma in the past several weeks, but have also found how much of their history remains a mystery – including in France. The DNA results indicate an ancestor within the last 450 years. Sounds like a long time, but my most likely ancestor was one from Auvergne in south central France who later migrated to the northeastern France of my great-grandfather. My seventh-great grandfather, he lived in the late 1600s and early 1700s. In the late 1580s, Spain decided to rid the country of the gypsies, and many likely fled into France. Within a couple of miles from my ancestor's home in the Clermont-Theirs region was a an area that seems to have been a refuge for the Roma. It is still found on some maps, and called "Bohemia," but in the Occitan form of the local language. A canon of the church living at the time of my ancestor and in the same city was also a poet who wrote sympathetically of the "Baumians," and I believe that this was an area where gypsies were safe for a few generations.

What has this to do with me today? Well, I still have a trace of his DNA. We don't have DNA from every ancestor – by 400-500 years we have too many ancestors to still carry DNA from each one. So I have inherited something from a Roma forebear - DNA, yes, but also a sliver of a heritage I never would have expected I had.
"Collinwood is not a healthy place to be." -- Collinsport sheriff, 1995

Offline Mysterious Benefactor

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Re: OT - Roma/Gypsy Heritage
« Reply #1 on: May 29, 2018, 04:10:41 AM »
Very interesting - especially given how, as you said, we've discussed Roma on the forum in the past.

I just hope that you're not the eldest male because, well, we all know what happens to him when a curse is placed.  [ghost_grin]

Offline Josette

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Re: OT - Roma/Gypsy Heritage
« Reply #2 on: May 29, 2018, 05:58:11 PM »
That's very interesting - it seems strange that some in your family wouldn't have at least some interest!  I guess it proves you belong here!!  And, LOL to MB's comment.
Josette

Offline Gerard

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Re: OT - Roma/Gypsy Heritage
« Reply #3 on: May 30, 2018, 01:12:40 AM »
I'm of Eastern European heritage.  It's a mish-mash of cultures that collided in what eventually was called Galicia:  Ukrainians, Carpathorusins, Poles, Belorusins, Slovaks with a smattering of Hungarians and Gypsies coalesced.  The primary religions were Greek Catholic, Orthodox, Jewish (Judaism in Galicia was considered a religion, not an ethnicity - they were "po-nasuma" - "our people;" being raised Galician Catholic, I learned Yiddish words ("schmeer;" "putch;" "dupa" - "If you schmeer that mess on the floor, you're going to get a putch on your dupa")  and sang Yiddish songs like Dona.  Undoubtedly, there is Roma in my blood. 

So everyone don't get sassy with me or else I'll turn you into a werewolf.  Remember how Lilly had to scold Grandpa on  The Munsters:  "The last time you changed, you ended up with that police dog in Kansas City."

Anyway, it's always fascinating to research one's heritage.

Gerard

Offline Philippe Cordier

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Re: OT - Roma/Gypsy Heritage
« Reply #4 on: May 30, 2018, 03:49:53 PM »
Nice to hear from some long familiar names (if not exactly faces …)!

Gerard, it wouldn't be a great surprise if you had Romany ancestry. To tell the truth, I've never heard of the Galicia you speak of until I looked it up just now. (Not to be confused with the one in Spain.) With my background, discovering a Roma ancestor was something out of left field (though the gypsies have had a presence in Scandinavia since the 1500s so it wouldn't be impossible there, either). Even more unusual than the thought of European Romany ancestry, is the fact that this all goes back to India. I really can't picture having ancestors from India. The Roma are believed to have left India about 1000 A.D., but some historic postcards I found online from Auvergne show a gypsy couple who look like they could have just left India.

I might clarify that this is not my direct paternal bloodline (so probably no worry about curses …), though Mathieu is an ancestor on my father's side. I suspect that by his generation, he may have been only 1/4 Gypsy. (I'm actually descended from him twice, though, so got a double dose of DNA.) I guess the family members I've told about this think this is all so far back in the past it has nothing to do with them, hence their lack of interest. (Gerard, if you are ever interested in doing DNA testing, I would be happy to tell you what testing you would need that would allow you to confirm any Roma ancestry.)
"Collinwood is not a healthy place to be." -- Collinsport sheriff, 1995

Offline Gerard

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Re: OT - Roma/Gypsy Heritage
« Reply #5 on: May 31, 2018, 02:31:08 AM »
Philippe, the Eastern European (as opposed to Spanish) area called Galicia is fascinating, isn't it?  In its own language, it's also called "Haylc."  It's a hodge-podge of ethnicities and religions that coalesced into what they called "po-nasamu" - "our people."  It was common for people to intermarry regardless of ethnicity or religion.  Languages intersected, borrowing phases and words.  Customs did as well.  And the Roma/Gypsy culture was welcomed and absorbed as well.  Many Roma/Gypsies who settled there became Greek Catholics.  The Greek Catholics took in some of their customs as well as Jewish. 

In 1990, I was fortunate to travel to Galicia during the fall of the Soviet Union when much of it became primarily a part of Ukraine.  It's major city Lviv was restoring itself.  Called Lemberg when under Austrian-Hungarian ruled and called the "Paris of the East," it was a fascinating place. 

Did Magda and Sandor ever visit it?

And, yes, Philippe, let me know how to genetically test my ancestorship!

Gerard

Offline Philippe Cordier

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Re: OT - Roma/Gypsy Heritage
« Reply #6 on: June 11, 2018, 04:57:57 AM »
Keep me posted, Gerard!  [ghost_mellow]

As I messaged to Gerard, it now looks like the Roma was on my mother's side rather than my father's, which actually seems like a better fit with respect to temperament, view of the world, etc.

- Philippe
"Collinwood is not a healthy place to be." -- Collinsport sheriff, 1995