Is Dark Shadows Dying? Can it Be Saved?

[PennyDreadful]

Yes, but my question is what kind of fanbase are we talking here?

 I do not believe the majority of the DS fanbase is into the bloopers and camp and all that, despite what you found in an initial search for DS sites.  The Sci-Fi channel site seems to be the one that comes up often in a DS online search, and that site can tend to reflect more of the fans who are into perceived "camp" value in the series.  There is a significant portion of the fanbase who are into those things, but I don't think it is the majority.  Over the years, I've seen what seems to be roughly three schools of DS fandom:

1.) The one you describe where the fans are mainly into the bloopers and seeing the humanity of the actors who can sometimes make mistakes. Some of these fans see DS as high camp, much to the chagrin of many of the show's actors.  However, these fans love the show and actors, but get their main charge out of the theatrical acting styles, bloopers, rickety sets and all that.

2.) The dead serious DS fan who is very much into the mythos and style of the whole series.  This fan really doesn't like the bloopers too much, and is into analyzing the storyline/artistic value of the show itself, as well as the performances of the actors, many of whom are held in high regard.  These fans often try to fill in the plot-holes and attempt to correct inconsistencies in the show where they can, and really like exploring the world of Dark Shadows.

3.) The "somewhere in the middle fan" - the fan who suspends disbelief, and appreciates the creative qualities/storylines in the show, but can also get a real kick out of the bloopers and dated special f/x.

 I'd say most fans fall into the #3 category.

 I suppose I'm a bit closer to fan #2, but am certainly not so dead serious about the show that I can't get a good laugh when Roger says "incestors" instead of "ancestors."  I mean, some of the mistakes are really hilarious even though they can sometimes detract from my enjoyment of the show.  However, as an actress myself, I can completely understand how many of the actors don't really like having their mistakes laughed at, nor their serious performances thought of as camp.  Many of the DS actors are stage performers so their style (appropriately for a gothic series) is larger than life.  They did not set out to play the show for laughs by any means.  I'm currently playing Medea in a production at Your Theatre (www.yourtheatre.org in case any New England DS fans are interested in seeing what I feel is the archetype for Angelique).  Since this is a Greek tragedy, it's really big and dramatic.  I know if someone laughed at my performance and called me "campy", I'd be somewhat hurt about it since that wasn't what I set out to portray.  BUT, I could understand if I screwed up and said "my incestors" and the audience got a laugh out of it, hey them's the breaks.  You can't deny mistakes can be funny.  But to dwell on them as a central focus is kind of uncool IMO.

  THIS kind of fanbase gives Dark Shadows a tacky and laugheable reputation to a new generation used to special affects and high production values.

 I disagree.  I am a second generation DS fan, and while I quickly became aware of the "DS as camp" fans, it certainly never gave me the impression that DS was any less than an incredibly creative and atmospheric show, despite the technical/budget issues.  Special effects and high production values will never supercede excellent writing and good, character-driven performances.  However, I do sometimes think the general population is becoming more shallow in a way with regards to these things and might just rather see some slick computer f/x or a reality show about some dysfunctional group of people than to watch an intricately woven tale of intrigue and suspense.  But sometimes, stuff like the X-Files comes along an disproves my suspicions about the short-attention span "internet" generation.
      I also hope you don't think all the original DS fans are into the camp stuff, because that's simply not true and it would be a disservice to them to say so.  Many of the oldschool DS fans have kept the show alive for 40 years.  I don't think MPI ever marketed the show as jokey in any way (except for their Bloopers tape).  The description on the back of the tapes and DVDs is quite repectful IMO.
     If you personally feel the DS internet presence is not as well-represented as it should be, then create a website.  You are an artist, so I'm sure you could come up with something creative.   

   ~Penny Dreadful~

[ProfStokes]

Being an art school graduate and artist myself I tend to see creative things in terms of "works of art". I really see the original "Dark Shadows" as a highly creative (well, most of it) piece of American gothic fiction which happens to be a television series created in the 60's. After coasting through a series of Internet websites devoted to DS I became very dissapointed in finding most (actually all that I could see) fanbases focusing primarily on Dark Shadows bloopers, Jonathan Frid forgetting his lines, Dark Shadows festivals and meeting KLS "in person"...festivals where the old DS actors engage in humorous antidotes regarding Dark Shadows bloopers and blunders, Jonathan Frid forgetting his lines, and stage presentation such as singing and dancing. People seem to love it and that's great for them but for the rest of us....well, I find much of this reduces Dark Shadows, especially folks who did NOT grow up with the series, to kitsch, 60's garish, foolish monsters and goblins without cool special effects or legitimate thrills. i.e it's hard not to laugh at the obvious crinkling rug as a dead hand reaches through a grave. And, yes - Jonathan Frid DOES forgot his lines as 30% of the series will attest to. Unfortuately (and I know this from talking to my friends and my boyfriend, who is a part-time film critic) THIS kind of fanbase gives Dark Shadows a tacky and laugheable reputation to a new generation used to special affects and high production values.

One site that treats DS as a work of art, specifically tying the format and plots of the show into the gothic literary tradition, is "Dark Shadows 101".  I believe the webmaster of this site is an original fan.  Unfortunately, the link that I had bookmarked no longer seems to be working  ; does anyone know if this site has relocated? Old link: http://users.rcn.com/sjohnson.javanet/index.html/index.html

As to whether DS is dying, I believe that interest in the show is still strong.  From what I've come to understand by reading various posts on this board, the problem is not that other networks don't want to air the series but that Worldvision (or whoever it is that's distributing the show) is asking a price that no one is willing to pay.  Hence, it is finances, not lack of interest that is keeping the show off the air.  Hopefully a deal can be worked out soon and the long hiatus will end.

ProfStokes

[PennyDreadful]

One site that treats DS as a work of art, specifically tying the format and plots of the show into the gothic literary tradition, is "Dark Shadows 101". 

 It's too bad that site is offline.  I'm really quite interested in reading this.

 I'll add one more subset of DS fans to my prior list.  The "Character Fan", who's interest in DS revolves primarily around a particular character and/or actor and the character's relationships with other characters and situations in the show. 

[michael c]

while many fans(like myself)enjoy a certain "kitsh" value on the show like the flubbed lines,cheap production values,psychedelic costuming,etc. i don't think they would follow the show devotedly just for those reasons.there has to be some compelling storytelling happening to keep fans coming back and in many cases there is.i guess that puts me in penny's "third category".

[Patti Feinberg]

Boris Karloff's Thriller, perhaps.

(Steve...is that the one where the SIX fingered hand came out of the ground??)

Patti

[Barnabas'sBride]

I'll add one more subset of DS fans to my prior list.  The "Character Fan", who's interest in DS revolves primarily around a particular character and/or actor and the character's relationships with other characters and situations in the show. 

I fall heavily into the 'Character Fan' category (because with any show, movie, etc...it all tends to begin with a character for me), but on the list I'd also be between 2 and 3, closer to 2. And I'm a 2nd generation DS fan.

Very well thought out list.

[Luciaphile]

One site that treats DS as a work of art, specifically tying the format and plots of the show into the gothic literary tradition, is "Dark Shadows 101".  I believe the webmaster of this site is an original fan.  Unfortunately, the link that I had bookmarked no longer seems to be working  ; does anyone know if this site has relocated? Old link: (URL)

I think you have one too many index.html

Unfortunately there's no cache and I can't find it on the Wayback Machine.

[victoriawinters]

After coasting through a series of Internet websites devoted to DS I became very dissapointed in finding most (actually all that I could see) fanbases focusing primarily on Dark Shadows bloopers, Jonathan Frid forgetting his lines, Dark Shadows festivals and meeting KLS "in person"...festivals where the old DS actors engage in humorous antidotes regarding Dark Shadows bloopers and blunders, Jonathan Frid forgetting his lines, and stage presentation such as singing and dancing.

I think this is a blanket statement that doesn't have much basis in fact.  There are many web-sites that have different information in them.  Also, DS webmasters (with the exception of the festival site) are not official arms of Dan Curtis Productions and don't have to have a set of prescribed formulas.  It's their personal take on the show or experience of fandom.  It's also prejudicial to assume that all fandom reflects the opinion of the webmasters you call into question.

One site that treats DS as a work of art, specifically tying the format and plots of the show into the gothic literary tradition, is "Dark Shadows 101". I believe the webmaster of this site is an original fan. Unfortunately, the link that I had bookmarked no longer seems to be working ; does anyone know if this site has relocated?

Unfortunately, this site is gone.  It did work at one point as given but all gone now.  The author was a college professor and created a literature class with comparisons to DS and use the literate er borrowed for the storylines.  Comparison, contrast, etc.  She never did finish the entire show and only managed to get a syllabus for the first semester.  It was very interesting with the questions she had.

luv, victoriawinters[/size]
Don't click here.[/FONT]

[CastleBee]

So, the problem for DS is that the tacky and laughable original fan base is getting in the way of the show's ability to attract new artistic fans?

Gee.....after almost 40 years of keeping this little gem alive, you'd think we deserved a bit more respect than that.

Thank you Raineypark! LOL!  As an original fan I was beginning to feel as though I had suddenly outlived my usefulness - time to pack up my DS DVD's and books and shuffle off to the home for the terminally tacky.  Well, not just yet...

I watched the show during and since the original run and have found something amazing in the process - it is actually possible to take it seriously and have a chuckle once in awhile. Why?  Because DS runs the gamut; it's a great atmospheric, romantic and spooky gothic piece and, sorry, but sometimes it's also hilarious kitsch.  I see no harm in a fan - regardless of generation - being able to appreciate the show on whatever level or in whatever way strikes his or her fancy.  And, I fail to see how any enjoyment of this old television show could detract from its value in any way. In fact, I'm pretty sure that enjoying it is what gives it value in the first place. 

As to having your view of Dark Shadows affected by growing up with far superior special effects and production values - please keep in mind that even we original fans -  at least those who haven't been walled up in a basement room somewhere since 1966 - are very familiar with the changes that have taken place in those areas and this knowledge also affects the way we view the show.  I may have started out re-watching the Dark Shadows out of a sense of nostalgia, but I continue to watch simply because it's fun and I enjoy it.  And though I also enjoy reading detailed comments on this board concerning characters and storyline, I find that not analyzing the show into mincemeat and seeing humor in it once in awhile helps keep it alive and entertaining for me.  Sorry if that devalues the show or the fan base but if you're trying to make DS into anything other than entertainment then I think you've got some work ahead of you anyway.

[Nancy]

Yes, but my question is what kind of fanbase are we talking here? I never watched the original series and became involved after catching a few SciFi episodes and started to buy MPI videos because I hated the constant commercial interruptions. Being an art school graduate and artist myself I tend to see creative things in terms of "works of art". I really see the original "Dark Shadows" as a highly creative (well, most of it) piece of American gothic fiction which happens to be a television series created in the 60's. After coasting through a series of Internet websites devoted to DS I became very dissapointed in finding most (actually all that I could see) fanbases focusing primarily on Dark Shadows bloopers, Jonathan Frid forgetting his lines, Dark Shadows festivals and meeting KLS "in person"...festivals where the old DS actors engage in humorous antidotes regarding Dark Shadows bloopers and blunders, Jonathan Frid forgetting his lines, and stage presentation such as singing and dancing. People seem to love it and that's great for them but for the rest of us....well, I find much of this reduces Dark Shadows, especially folks who did NOT grow up with the series, to kitsch, 60's garish, foolish monsters and goblins without cool special effects or legitimate thrills. i.e it's hard not to laugh at the obvious crinkling rug as a dead hand reaches through a grave. And, yes - Jonathan Frid DOES forgot his lines as 30% of the series will attest to. Unfortuately (and I know this from talking to my friends and my boyfriend, who is a part-time film critic) THIS kind of fanbase gives Dark Shadows a tacky and laugheable reputation to a new generation used to special affects and high production values.
So, what CAN Dark Shadows offer to those who do not have nostaligic memories? I believe it warrants analysis and debate. Much of what I have watched (early Barnabas and 1795) is genuinely fascinating. 70% of the time Joanthan Frid is memorizing and has such charisma in the role its hard to take eyes off him. The other acting is sometimes superb and the writing witty, subtle and often poetic. It offers a dark gothic atmosphere that will probably never be authentically reproduced or copied. Like many beautiful pieces of "Art" it is an original and stands alone (for better for worse). I just don't see another series, as well intentioned as it can be, will be able to touch what Dark Shadows was. I really believe if the original series is marketed with an eye towards its artistic atributes (not just as a horror vampire show) it will gain a legitimate and appreciative fanbase with newer audiences.

Unfortunately, human nature seems to dictate that we focus on what goes wrong with something rather than what works well (even if it's a show we love).  I believe most fans watch DS just to find the faults/bloopers in it and I know some of the actors believe the same thing.  And that's fine if that is what works for them.   Frid has said publicly that he believes most people watch DS simply to laugh at it and the flubs actors make.

Nancy

[stefan]

Yikes! I really did it this time. I wanted to make a quick post to apologize for any offense I might have given to fanbases with my comments. Even though my comments were sincere and came from the heart. I had read this forum thread and pondered my response for awhile and unfortunately don't have the time right now to do the same for the responses my post received.
This particular website (by-the-way) is the best Dark Shadows forum I've seen and it's probably because I respect both the moderators and participants that I can make - what might seem - outrageous comments - that sometimes I assume will get me banned from it altogether. But, I can't help how I feel.
Anyway, back to the orginal question - is Dark Shadows dying? I think it comes down to enlarging the fanbases already in place. More people need to know about the show, how great it is and not just the blooper aspect of it. I tried getting my boyfriend engaged in DS and forced him to watch but, sadly, picked a tape that had some Frid bloopers and that's all it took for him to turn away completely. I quckly tried playing another superior representation, but the damage had already been done. DS's blooper reputation had prejudiced him against it from the beginning I think.

[Gothick]

I don't have the energy to make a big deal over this point, but I personally do not see the conflict in both celebrating the "camp" elements of DS AND regarding it as a work of art.  (I have philosophical notions with the concept of "taking something seriously"--the late Johan Huizinga argued back in the 1940s that "play" and the playful attitude have been the true sources of whatever progress we've managed to make in human civilization, and Hakim Bey did a witty update on Huizinga's proposals in his 1980s broadsheets, "TAZ: the Temporary Autonomous Zone."  Also, cf Jack Smith's brilliant essay on the Filmic Apotheosis of Maria Montez which suggests a different way of looking at anything from 1940s spectacle films to 1960s TV shows along lines that subvert our culture's obsessive focus upon hierarchies of excellence and achievement.

I think there is something very subversive about DS that occasionally breaks the surface of the narrative but often is simply lurking amidst the spectacular display of fabulous costumes, performances, and dialogue.  To my mind, this is the key thing that makes DS so unique.  A lot of the energy that was emerging in the off-(off-) Broadway scene in NYC theatre seems to have been feeding into DS.  There are a lot of examples that come to mind--the performances of Erica Fitz, Diana Davila, Elizabeth Eis and some of the other day players as much as the performances by the big swingers (Grayson, Thayer, Selby, Parker, Frid) all of whom HAD been involved in some of the more experimental theatre in NYC.

I think this sort of thing may have been what Nancy Barrett had in mind when she claimed that DS died because it was too "ambitious."  Not just ambitious in terms of constantly switching the direction of the story so as to keep the audience surprised and guessing, but also ambitious in an artistic sense.  I really do think it re-defined daytime TV and was truly cutting edge in several respects.

The period that Luciaphil has been chronicling so brilliantly in her column represents the time when DS was at its most literary, in some ways.  I am looking forward to reading Francis Swann's novel, The Brass Key, to see how much his DS scripts resemble an actualy Gothic novel he wrote.

G.

[ProfStokes]

One reason why so many fans focus on the bloopers and mishaps may be that DS is really the only place to see this happening.  Other TV shows of the era were not taped non-stop, so any mistakes could be corrected.  Hence, Jeanne and Major Nelson never flubbed their lines and Rod Serling never tripped over the scenery.  Other soap operas may have experienced some bloopers (I know MB has mentioned some outstanding ones in another topic on the board) but those soaps have not aired reruns for the past 30 years and are not on DVD or video.  That DS is is a testament to its appeal.  I am a second-generation fan, and while I enjoy the other aspects of the show, I am also tickled by the occasional blooper, largely because it's something I'm not expecting and am not used to seeing.  To the actors' credit, they handle each blooper professionally, never breaking character and often finding creative ways to recover.  This increases my respect for their talents; it doesn't make me look down on them for messing up in the first place.  As for the special effects, while they may be primitive, they are also creative, considering what the prop managers had to work with in the 1960s.  I find it's better to consider the intent of an effect rather than the quality of it. (e.g. Jeb's shadow looks silly, but the idea of a killer shadow is spooky.)

Of all the TV shows I've watched, DS is the only one that I ever felt compelled to discuss; there's just something about it that wants to be analyzed and needs to be shared.  In fairness to all the fans, I've always found the conversations on this and other boards to be intelligent and insightful as well as humorous.  (To the new cousins: please do take a look at the Current Talk archives if you have the time; there are some very worthwhile and deep discussions there, especially regarding the 1795 timeline.)  The majority of people who post on DS message boards are original fans of the series; they often remark that their appreciation for the series has grown over time and that they are able to discern new meanings with each viewing. To me, this suggests the ability to appreciate all levels of DS.

As for broadening the fan base, that could be a tricky matter.  When I was in high school, I tried to recruit a couple of my friends by lending them videotapes.  One started with 1795, the other with 1897, both of which are considered to be high-quality storylines.  However, neither one took to the show. :-  (One of my friends even made what I thought was an interesting comment: "This show is such a soap opera!"  Even though DS is technically a soap, it doesn't have the traditional elements of most soap opera plots, nor does it present them in the same style, so his assessment surprised me.)  I don't think it had anything to do with bloopers or acting ability though.  DS, like most cult shows, may just be an acquired taste.

ProfStokes

[Mysterious Benefactor]

To the actors' credit, they handle each blooper professionally, never breaking character and often finding creative ways to recover.  This increases my respect for their talents; it doesn't make me look down on them for messing up in the first place.

I think one of the best recoveries comes in the 1970PT storyline. I forget the exact episode number, but Barnabas asks PT Maggie if Quentin was really in love with Josette, and without losing a beat KLS says, "Josette? I think he was in love with Angelique." And from there the scene progresses as if the slip-up had never happened.

[PennyDreadful]

Unfortunately, this site is gone.  It did work at one point as given but all gone now.  The author was a college professor and created a literature class with comparisons to DS and use the literate er borrowed for the storylines.

  Does anyone remember the professor's name?  If so, I'll try and get in touch with them and perhaps they can provide the text from their former website.

 ~Penny Dreadful~