1795 as a Greek Tragedy

[ProfStokes]

There has been some comparison recently between events in the current story line and the stories of Greek mythology.  I agree with this completely.  In fact, when we studied the play "Medea" in school a couple of years ago, the title character immediately reminded me of Angelique!  Medea, a witch, is also a woman scorned who retaliates against her cheating husband Jason by destroying everyone he loves and cursing him.  Does this sound familiar?  

In fact, I found a DS counterpart for almost every character in the play and in my mind, I cast the DS actors as the characters.  (Though I imagined David Selby as Jason rather than Jonathan Frid since the cunning cad Quentin seemed to fit his profile more closely than did Barnabas.)

Do you think that Dan Curtis and co. could have been influenced by this or other classic plays?

ProfStokes

[VAM]

Do you think that Dan Curtis and co. could have been influenced by this or other classic plays?

ProfStokes

Yes I do. In fact, Lara Parker mentions the comparison in one of her articles, which appeared in a DARK SHADOWS COMPANION. Ms. Parker says as follows:"...When I read Joseph Campbell's book , 'The Power of Myth' I realized why these stories were so potent. We have heard them before, in fairy tales, in Greek and Roman myths..."

[Luciaphile]

There has been some comparison recently between events in the current story line and the stories of Greek mythology.  I agree with this completely.  

(snip)

Do you think that Dan Curtis and co. could have been influenced by this or other classic plays?

A very thoughtful post, Prof. Stokes, but then your's always are    Great call on Medea!  In answer to your question, I would say, probably not consciously and probably indirectly

The conscious "borrowing" came from B movies like The Thing That Couldn't Die and The Beast with Five Fingers .  Some classier films that they also were "influenced by" (shamelessly stole from) were, I would venture, Vertigo and a personal favorite, The Uninvited.

I agree that there are definitely strong elements from Greek tragedies running through DS.  The show is really quite the mishmosh.  Gothic, Romanticism, fairytale, supermarket romance--they cover quite the spectrum.  

Art Wallace gave an interview once where he discussed the literary antecedents of the episodes he worked on.  IIRC, he compared facets of the show to Wuthering Heights (Burke=Heathcliffe, Roger=Linton, Laura=Cathy).  They redid that theme again much later, much less subtlety.

I heartily recommend Joseph Campbell's The Hero with a Thousand Faces.  And for a look at fairy tales, a really good book available in a lot of public libraries is, Marina Warner's From the Beast to the Blonde.

Luciaphil

[ProfStokes]

The conscious "borrowing" came from B movies like The Thing That Couldn't Die and The Beast with Five Fingers .  Some classier films that they also were "influenced by" (shamelessly stole from) were, I would venture, Vertigo and a personal favorite, The Uninvited.

I remember The Thing That Couldn't Die from "Mystery Science Theater 3000."  I agree that it was probably very "inspiring" for 1840.  I'm guessing that another uncredited film influence was The Manchurian Candidate for the 1897 incident with Evan Hanley, Tim Shaw, and Minerva Trask.

ProfStokes

[Bobubas]

I'm guessing that another uncredited film influence was The Manchurian Candidate for the 1897 incident with Evan Hanley, Tim Shaw, and Minerva Trask.

ProfStokes

What an excellent movie! Laurence Harvey & Angela Lansbury were simply awesome in their performances. I haven't seen this movie in years, but it does leave a lasting impression on one.

[Philippe Cordier]

Ah, just the sort of topic I like sinking my teeth into!  

It's interesting, I've referred several times in the past to the 1795 storyline as a "tragedy" and to Barnabas as a tragic hero, but I was thinking more along the lines of Shakespearean tragedy and what developed in the English theatre.  All those bodies littering the stage at the end of 1795 looked like the tableau at the end of "Hamlet."

Although it's been nearly 20 years since I studied Greek tragedy (so my memory is somewhat hazy), my impression remains that 1795, with its large cast and expansive plot (and subplots) is much closer to the Shakespearean form.  Greek tragedy by definition (especially as commented on by Aristotle) requires that certain unities (time, place, action) must be observed -- e.g., the entire action must take place within a single day.  Shakespeare, on the other hand, in developing the tragedy for the English stage, did not adhere to the classical model of the Greeks.  What most of us think of as tragedy is probably more in keeping with the heritage of the Elizabethan period.

The central horror of "Medea" is her slaying of her own children to spite Jason -- an act that might give even Angelique pause (though it would be interesting to consider the possibilities!).     I don't doubt that one might see similarities in some of the characters.  My thought would be that that's because DS draws on some of the same archetypal figures found in drama and literature from time immemorial.  ("Hell hath no fury like a woman scorned," etc.)  

Greek mythology, on the other hand, was definitely borrowed by the DS writers very briefly with the Quentin/Amanda Harris plot, which at the end re-worked the Orpheus/Eurydice in the underworld story.  There may have been other instances that I can't remember offhand.  

Myth in general, a la Joseph Campbell and Jung, is unconsciously present throughout the series, IMO.  (About a year ago, I started an essay on just this theme -- DS and myth -- for a certain DS publication, but I got distracted and my life seems to have been in near-constant disarray since then, and I haven't been able to get back to it.)  

So, in sum (though not to presume mine is the final word), I'd say that 1795 resembles a theatrical tragedy, but I wouldn't call it specifically a "Greek tragedy." The series as a whole, as Luciaphil points out, is a melange of genres (horror, mystery, melodrama, and yes even a macabre fairy tale at one point, as I argued during 1970 PT, I think it was ...).  And, my own private theory is that the series taken in its entirety constitutes a grand myth.

[Philippe Cordier]

Continued from previous ...

I ran out of time last night, but am switching emphasis here, anyway.  These comments are addressed specifically to Luciaphil, if she should read this.

Luciaphil, I was completely unaware of the movies you referred to, "The Thing that Couldn't Die" and "The Beast with Five Fingers," and their connection with 1840 and 1897, respectively (as I gather after reading movie descriptions in Leonard Maltin's video bible).

Aaargghh!!  Why didn't someone clue me into the 1840 connection before -- my favorite storyline?    Have you mentioned these movies before?  I haven't seen them referred to in any DS sources I've read.

Well, I do greatly appreciate the lead at this point, especially before I spent too many manhours researching various "talking head" legends dating back to the Middle Ages (at least) that I was engaged in tracking down.  From Maltin's description of "The Thing that Couldn't Die," it does sound like that is the direct inspiration for the head of Judah Zachary.  (Aside:  I note in Maltin that the script was co-written by Dodie Smith -- known to me as the author of a favorite childhood book, the original novel of "The Hundred and One Dalmations.)

And "The Uninvited" -- another movie I only recently have heard of, and which I've been dying to see!  If you have a moment, could you elaborate on what its connection with DS is?

More videos for me to try to track down, it looks like!

Finally, the Roger, Laura, Burke connection with "Wuthering Heights."  This was a new one to me -- it's interesting to think of Devlin as a Heathcliff figure (though I'd have a much harder time seeing Anthony George in this light).  I would have thought this a stretch if you hadn't mentioned that Art Wallace himself brought this up in an interview.

Another example of drawing on archetypes?  Romantic love triangles are as old as the hills ...

P.S.  Thanks to VAM for drawing attention to LParker's comments about Jos. Campbell.  

[Luciaphile]

Continued from previous ...
Aaargghh!!  Why didn't someone clue me into the 1840 connection before -- my favorite storyline?    Have you mentioned these movies before?  I haven't seen them referred to in any DS sources I've read.

Probably because in the DS sources, they're usually trying to be high falutin' about the works they "were inspired by" and either no one wants to admit that the writers ripped off some really, really, bad grade b-drivethru/filler flicks, that or they don't relish bad cinema like I do

From Maltin's description of "The Thing that Couldn't Die," it does sound like that is the direct inspiration for the head of Judah Zachary.  (Aside:  I note in Maltin that the script was co-written by Dodie Smith -- known to me as the author of a favorite childhood book, the original novel of "The Hundred and One Dalmations.) [/i]

Much as I hate to correct Leonard Maltin, Dodie Smith did not write The Thing That Couldn't Die.  IMDB backs me up on this, and if you ever read Smith's other books, I Capture the Castle," for instance, and had seen The Thing That Couldn't Die, you would know that it just isn't possible  

I saw The Thing That Couldn't Die courtesy of MST3K, which last time I checked, was still airing repeats on the SciFi channel.  Huge chunks of the film are going to seem oddly familiar to you and in a big way  

And "The Uninvited" -- another movie I only recently have heard of, and which I've been dying to see!  If you have a moment, could you elaborate on what its connection with DS is?

This one airs on TCM from time to time.  It's a great flick, and despite some strange casting, chilling at times.  Much better made than the other two turkeys.  

Essentially, it's a haunted house movie.  Ray Milland and his sister, Ruth Hussey come across a beautiful house in the English countryside and fall in love with it.  Despite from odd vibes from the house's owner and his granddaughter, Gail Russell, they buy the house with their savings.  

It's haunted, of course, and there's a mystery behind it that needs to be unraveled.  

As far as DS goes:
weeping ghosts
signature floral fragrance of ghost
portrait with significance
and I won't spoil it, but there are some other touches that will strike a definite chord--save it to say that this is something to catch if you can.

Gail Russell is quite wonderful as the granddaughter.  She had kind of a strange career, hated to act, and relied on alcohol to get through her performances (I know I'm on the edge of the guidelines, here, but it's pretty much a matter of public record).  Alan Napier (Batman's butler) has a nice little part.  And an actress who has always intrigued me, Elizabeth Russell (Seventh Victim, Curse of the Cat People) was the model for the portrait of Mary Meredith.

Catch this if you can.

Finally, the Roger, Laura, Burke connection with "Wuthering Heights."  This was a new one to me -- it's interesting to think of Devlin as a Heathcliff figure (though I'd have a much harder time seeing Anthony George in this light).  I would have thought this a stretch if you hadn't mentioned that Art Wallace himself brought this up in an interview.

Not really, we have Roger as the spoiled, rich scion of a wealthy family (Linton), who captured the hand of the tempestuous and beautiful Laura (Cathy) mainly because he was rich.  Her heart meanwhile was never fully his and belonged to Burke, rough around the edges and from a questionable background, who having lost out big time, came back rich and determined to get his revenge (Heathcliff).

Burke was trying to buy up Collinwood and ruin the family.  He was also going to use whatever means at hand, in this case, Carolyn, who equals Isabelle (Linton's sister).

Hope that helps, Vlad!

Luciaphil

[Philippe Cordier]

I'll definitely be scouring the TV listings for those movies, Luciaphil!  Thanks!      

[Nicky]

Another great topic, Prof!

Vlad said, "The central horror of "Medea" is her slaying of her own children to spite Jason -- an act that might give even Angelique pause (though it would be interesting to consider the possibilities!)."

We studied Medea in one of my theatre design classes a million years ago, and I actually wrote a paper for my theatre history class last semester with Medea as one of the centeral points.  I drew a lot of comparisons to Ang, and still do.  The actual focus of my paper was how Greek myths were used almost exclusively at the time as fodder for their plays -- Euripides took the myth of Medea, where she was portrayed very one dimensionally as a sorceress versed in dark arts who schemed to win Jason's hand and sacrificed important things to her (like her brother) to get what she wanted, and painted her as a much more complex character.  

Upon deciding that the only way to avenge herself is to kill her husband's new girlfriend, the never-seen Princess, Medea sends her children to her bearing the gift of a robe ... poisoned, of course, and it sends the poor princess up in flames, and takes daddy with her.  Medea realizes that her children will be slain now in retaliation for their part, all unknowing, of their mother's not-so-niceties.  Quoth Medea, "Women, my task is fixed:  as quickly as I may to kill my children, and start away from this land, and not, by wasting time, to suffer my children to be slain by another hand less kindly to them.  Force every way will have it they must die, and since this must be so, then I, their mother, shall kill them.  Oh, arm yourself in steel, my heart!  Do not hang back from doing this fearful and necessary wrong.  Oh come, my hand, poor wretched hand, and take the sword ... and do not be a coward, do not think of them, how sweet they are, and how you are their mother.  Just for this one short day be forgetful of your children, afterward weep; for even though you kill them, they were very dear; Oh, I am an unhappy woman (Euripides, 40)!"

I realize that defending Medea is a pretty hopeless task -- a woman who stabs her own children doesn't engender much sympathy with people these days -- and I find the same is true for Angelique.  It can be argued that Medea's children wouldn't have been fated to die if she had simply swallowed her pride and not sought revenge, but it is important to realize that Euripides provided Medea with a conscience, a struggle over what was right and wrong, and guilt over her actions that is not as clearly defined in her part of the story of the Golden Fleece.  Though her actions were ultimately reprehensible, Euripides did not present her as an amoral, heartless witch (though those are the epithets hurled at her by Jason in the play's conclusion).

I guess my main point is that one of the reasons I've always loved Angelique is that she doesn't fall into your standard villain category (this will prove especially true in 1897 and the Leviathan storyline).  Like Euripides' version of Medea, she's quite complex, with many layers, and shades and shades (buckets and buckets) of gray.  I know that many people will disagree with me, but I've always wanted to give Angelique (and poor ol' Medea too, who gave up the humanity she tried to achieve with the death of her children, and flew away into the heavens in a chariot driven by dragons, and no one has ever made a cooler exit than that) a chance at defense.  

(Of course, we also have her not-so-much-fun actions, like sending Josette off the hill DELIBERATELY, or trying to have Liz buried alive, or turning Quentin into a zombie, or ... well, you get the picture).

Nicky (unusually verbose tonight)

[ProfStokes]

Excellent comments, Nicky!

I guess my main point is that one of the reasons I've always loved Angelique is that she doesn't fall into your standard villain category (this will prove especially true in 1897 and the Leviathan storyline).  Like Euripides' version of Medea, she's quite complex, with many layers, and shades and shades (buckets and buckets) of gray.  I know that many people will disagree with me, but I've always wanted to give Angelique (and poor ol' Medea too, who gave up the humanity she tried to achieve with the death of her children, and flew away into the heavens in a chariot driven by dragons, and no one has ever made a cooler exit than that) a chance at defense.  

In previous years, the English class where we read "Medea" held a mock trial to determine her degree of guilt (if any) for the murders in the play.  Students took on the roles of Medea, prosecutor, defense attorney, etc.  Unfortunately, in the year that I took the class, we had gone off schedule and didn't have the time to do anything so elaborate; instead, we each wrote two essays, one for and the other against Medea, and briefly debated the issue.  Several of your points (e.g. her remorse, her justification of her actions) were discussed.

ProfStokes  

[Philippe Cordier]

Interesting comments about "Medea," Nicky. "Medea" is probably my least favorite of the Greek tragedies I'm familiar with, though that could be due to the production I saw of it a few years ago; it wasn't a play I had read previously, so perhaps I'd have a more favorable opinion upon reading it.  

I'd be interested to read that paper you wrote on Greek tragedy and mythology!    I don't recall the plays I read all those years ago as deriving from mythology per se (but rather, the Trojan War, Oedipus, the Bacchanals, etc.), but this could be an aspect of the tragedies I was unaware of (or am forgetting).

I agree with your comments about Angelique--at times you think no one could be more sadistic, and then you'll see another side to her character.  At this point in our viewing, I can't believe that I eventually felt she and Barnabas really did love each other by the end of 1840, I think it was.  

Creating that ambivalence within the viewer toward her character was a brilliant move, whomever was responsible.

[VAM]

Another great topic, Prof!

Vlad said, "The central horror of "Medea" is her slaying of her own children to spite Jason -- an act that might give even Angelique pause (though it would be interesting to consider the possibilities!)."

I guess my main point is that one of the reasons I've always loved Angelique is that she doesn't fall into your standard villain category (this will prove especially true in 1897 and the Leviathan storyline).  Like Euripides' version of Medea, she's quite complex, with many layers, and shades and shades (buckets and buckets) of gray.  I know that many people will disagree with me, but I've always wanted to give Angelique (and poor ol' Medea too, who gave up the humanity she tried to achieve with the death of her children, and flew away into the heavens in a chariot driven by dragons, and no one has ever made a cooler exit than that) a chance at defense.  



Nicky (unusually verbose tonight)

I agree Nicky. That three dimensional make-up (far beyond the surface) is what makes Angelique so attractive as a character.