1795 101 discussion...

[stefan]

HAPPY NEW YEAR!...by the way...
Hi, this is my first new topic post here. Since my enthusiasm for Dark Shadows centers around the 1795 storyline (though 1841 sounds interesting too) I'd like to start a 1795 discussion post on the story merits and weakness of that classic period. I am specifically targeting the writing but please feel free to add anything that interests you...I adore watching 1795 on tape but there are two major weaknesses in the story that always bothered me and wondered if anyone else felt the same...?

1. Jeramiah's ghost: What happened here? After doing a brilliant job introducing all new characters allowing for commitment and affection from the audience WHY was Jeramiah treated so callously after he became "Jeramiah's ghost"? Was it that the actor, Anthony George, left before his story ended thus making it neccessary for an elaborately bandaged stand-in? Was management angry at him and so dismissed the character who before that time was affectionately and warmly treated. I think Jeramiah's demise was the most tragic of them all because he was a total pawn and victim of the A/B/J triangle and whose humanity and life was cruelly snuffed out with hardly a thought from anyone except to be a "placeholder goul" until Barnabas took over that role as the vampire. Yes, Barnabas and Josette grieved somewhat but I feel the writing did not allow for the full implications of his death to be felt especially after his poor eye-popping ghost was dragged and used all over the old and new house by an incredibly unrepentant Angelique.

2) Why didn't Barnabas tell Josette that Angelique was the witch and that he had an affair with her back in Matinique and/or WHY couldn't they have had Josette figure it out for herself? Major MAJOR writing weakness. I feel that someone, either one of the Collins' or Vickie should have been allowed to figure out that Angelique might have been the witch. It was just too easy for Angelique. I mean, yes Vickie was a strange anomoly in that time but if she were that powerful why was she allowing herself to STAY in jail, be tried and executed. What did she have to gain by all the deaths and strange occurrances? The only person who did gain anything was Angelique. She got a new husband and large house while everyone else was suffering. I feel the story, especially at the end when Josette jumped off widows hill, would have been even more exciting if Barnabas had confided to Josette or Vickie about the witch. It was just screaming to be told.

Well, those are the two major issues that bothered me. Anyone else have comments?

[DarkShadowyFigure]

I've been watching the 1795 storyline eps on dvd for a couple weeks now. I wish they had stayed in that time period longer than they did though I guess they wanted to tell how Barnabas became a vampire and then move on.

Does Anthony George leave the series at this point? My memory of the show other than what I've seen on dvd is a bit fuzzy. Isn't Jeremiah supposed to be Elizabeth Collins Stoddard's great-grandfather? If that's true, where are his children? Or for that matter, how does the Collins family line continue if Barnabas, Jeremiah and Sarah all die? As much as I recall, Naomi & Joshua don't have any more children nor does Joshua's sister Abagail. In watching the 1795 eps, I had assumed that Jeremiah would live & remarry. I did like his character and was surprised they killed him off so soon.

To me it would have made sense if Barnabas had told somebody that Angelique was the witch. Tell anyone & everyone, from Nathan Forbes to Rev Trask. Having Barnabas remain silent on this wouldn't affect his eventual fate. She could put the curse on Barnabas at any time, whether in jail or before being hung at the gallows.  If Angelique Collins had been tried and punished for witchcraft, wouldn't that be noted in the Collins family history book that Vicky brought back in time with her? Maybe that was a paradox that had to be avoided.

 I think the reason that neither Josette nor anyone else in her family suspected Angelique is that they didn't pay her much mind as she was just a servant. Why would a witch allow herself to be a mere servant, maybe that was reasoning. If it hadn't been for the Collins family history book, perhaps Josette would have  suspected Angelique, especially after Angelique lied to Josette & her aunt about Barnabas being out of town when he was upstairs in the Old House dying. I thought her aunt Natalie would have guessed something was very wrong about Angelique by then. Angelique seemed to have petty excuses for everything which everyone believed!

[stefan]

I'm not certain about the Collins family history but the Jeramiah in the 1795 series was Joshua's brother and Barnabas's uncle. So...there should have been a BIT more sadness at what happened to him. And interesting point - if all the Collins kids died, Barnabas (well, we all know the story), Jeramiah and Sarah how then did the Collins family live on to 1841? Maybe there was another branch that went to England , heh,, heh,,,unless Joshua, the sole survivor of the Angelique nightmare, married again and had more children. The other Collins, cousin Millicent, never married and OH! there's David, Millicent's brother. Maybe they are all decendants from David.

I guess Anthony George left about that time because right after Jeramiah was shot by Barnabas in the duel he was never seen again except as heavily bandaged and you could tell it wasn't the same actor nor was it the same voicel Unless he was on one of the later stories.

[Josette]

As to the family descent, you're right - it was Daniel (don't worry, they all called him David, too!!).  I think it might even have been mentioned at the time that Joshua was taking him in as the heir.

It sounds as though you didn't watch 1840.  In that story we see an elderly Daniel.  Quentin and Gabriel are his sons.  From 1897 we learn that Edith (Gabriel's wife - I won't get into the discrepancy with this part) is the grandmother of Edward and his 3 siblings.  Edward had Jamison, who had Elizabeth and Roger.

As to Barnabas not telling anyone, Angelique had threatened him.  I forget the specifics, but I think it was something about doing something terrible to Josette.  So, he couldn't take the chance of telling.

[stefan]

Josette wrote:

As to Barnabas not telling anyone, Angelique had threatened him.  I forget the specifics, but I think it was something about doing something terrible to Josette.  So, he couldn't take the chance of telling.

Hope I've done this quote thing right.

Well, an interesting plot point but by that time Barnabas should have figured out just how lethal Angelique was and that she was probably going to kill Josette ANYWAY. Josette should have had the dignity to be told who her enemy was and also...after Barnabas came back as a Vampire the whole subject was never discussed between Josette and Barnabas. Why didn't he tell her then? He knew he had killed Angelique (whatever) and why didn't Josette ask about the witch thing? I like Josette very much as a character but they did make her a little dense. Poor Vickie was still in jail at that time and Josette helped convict her. I guess no-one cared that Vickie was going to be burned or hung for being the supposed witch. Did it not occur to anyone that Vickie was indeed from the future possibly as a direct result of Angelique's mischief? loose writing ends.

[Joeytrom]

Anthony George had a six month contract, which expired about one month into 1795 and chose to leave the show.  I think the writers were stuck with this in the story and had to kill off Jeremiah and use another actor as the ghost in bandages.  They should have recast Jeremiah Collins, it would have made it easier. 

[JWGucciEnvy]

i didnt like Anthony Geroge as Burke, but liked him alot better as Jeremiah.  Yes I agree it would have made alot more sense to have Anthony Geroge play the ghost but I was ok with it.  I still got the jest of it all.

One of my favorites scenes when Angelique freaks out and promises to never use witchcraft again.  I enjoyed that highly.

[Cassandra]

i didnt like Anthony Geroge as Burke, but liked him alot better as Jeremiah.  Yes I agree it would have made alot more sense to have Anthony Geroge play the ghost but I was ok with it.  I still got the jest of it all.

Same for me.  I thought A.G. did a better job at portraying Jeremiah then he did as Burke Devlin.

I also loved 1795 and it was my favorite storyline!


Stefan Wrote:

To me it would have made sense if Barnabas had told somebody that Angelique was the witch. Tell anyone & everyone, from Nathan Forbes to Rev Trask. Having Barnabas remain silent on this wouldn't affect his eventual fate. She could put the curse on Barnabas at any time, whether in jail or before being hung at the gallows. 

  As for Barnabas not telling anyone about Angelique, I doubt that they would have believed him anyway.  Also, remember that Barnabas didn't find out about Angelique's sorcery until after they were married and then spent whatever little time he had left (before the curse) trying to think up ways to kill her.  I think they were only married one day before he found out the truth, tried to kill her, and then had the curse put upon him.  And by that time, he couldn't very well tell anyone the truth without revealing his own dark secret.
  I also agree with Josette that the reason why he never told his beloved Josette about Angelique was that he most likely feared for her safety.  And once he gave her the bite I don't think she would have cared anyway since she was under his power.

Rev Trask had a one track mind and once he got the idea in his head that Vicky was the witch, nothing could change that and even if he had known about Angelique being a witch, he'd never admit that he was wrong.

I'm not certain about the Collins family history but the Jeramiah in the 1795 series was Joshua's brother and Barnabas's uncle. So...there should have been a BIT more sadness at what happened to him.

I think everyone mourned Jeremiah in the same way they mourned everyone else in the family who died.  Barnabas of course seemed remorseful over what happened and this was apparent when he was standing over Jeremiah's grave after he became a vampire.

I was a bit suprised that Vicky, coming from a modern time, couldn't figure out who the real witch was.  This especially after finding some of Barnabas' personal items in Angelque's room and then listening to Ang trying to blame Sarah for the whole thing.


Cassandra

[stefan]

I agree it could have only added to the plot if Vickie had managed to get a clue that Angelique was the witch or if Barnabas told her. I feel the writing tended to focus on certain issues like Barnabas yearing for Josette after he became a vampire and what happened between them and just let the loose strings dangle. If 1795 had been more detailed and broadened it could have been truly brilliant and exciting. As it was, I still admire what they did tremendously but it's a little spotty.
During the end of the whole plot I felt the writers gave up on giving Josette a brain and/or personality and she was used simply as a romantic female victim. Poor thing, I wish they had allowed Josette to figure out WHAT was going on, it would have added to her tragedy. On the other hand, Angelique's character was well written and probably that's why Angelique remained and still remains one of the most popular DH characters despite the horrible things she did.
As to Anthony George, I don't mind that a stand-in was used as his ghost, what I did notice though was that the writing was not very sympathetic towards him after he became a ghost and his treatment was somewhat impersonal. I thought maybe it was intentional because the actor left.

[Joeytrom]

On another 1795 note...In an interview with Ron Sproat in a Dark Shadows Files Magazine in the 80's, he said that originally they were going to tell Barnabas' origin with books and ghosts instead of a time travel story.  This would have allowed for the events to take place over the course of several years as it was stated pre-1795.

[Miss_Winthrop]

As to Barnabas not telling anyone, Angelique had threatened him.  I forget the specifics, but I think it was something about doing something terrible to Josette.  So, he couldn't take the chance of telling.

Yes that is right. Barnabas had a deep fear of Angelique doing immediate harm to Josette.  I remember the scene at the Inn where Josette and Aunt Natalie spend the night with Josette sleeping by the fireplace.  I felt like Angelique's presense was there too.  She committed no acts against Josette at that time because she knew that Josette didn't know the truth about her. And besides, Victoria Winters was doing very well as the 'fall guy'.

Both Barnabas and Angelique have immense powers but not totally over each other. Barnabas begged Josette to leave. He knew that if she knew about the witch, she didn't have a chance of surviving. I think Angelique's wrath would be totally unstoppable if she felt betrayed by Barnabas. I seem to recall that she had some power (to a degree) over Barnabas and only had to give him a look of warning to control him if it suited her. But having said that, her power was not great enough to harm him physically after she had him under her curse and he became a vampire. Her power came from harming those that he loved and those who loved him.

[stefan]

Miss_Winthrop wrote:

Yes that is right. Barnabas had a deep fear of Angelique doing immediate harm to Josette.  I remember the scene at the Inn where Josette and Aunt Natalie spend the night with Josette sleeping by the fireplace.  I felt like Angelique's presense was there too.  She committed no acts against Josette at that time because she knew that Josette didn't know the truth about her

This is all true but if the writers had allowed the characters a bit more intelligence and perception I feel Barnabas would have realized that Josette's fate was doomed ANYWAY now that Barnabas knew Angelique was a witch. I don't believe Angelique was capable of humane restraint as was proven in that revealing scene when Angelique was musing over Vickie's capture due to her own witchcraft when she created the fiery ice fire that caused Vickie to run from her room smack into Trask, instead of being satisfied this would deflect attention away from herself, she further continued to weave spells hoping Vickie would then be burned as witch in keeping with the "old customs". Nice lady obviously corrupted by her own power and pure evil.
By telling Josette Barnabas might have given Josette a fighting chance in defending herself and at least the dignity of knowing who was trying to destroy her. Not telling Josette was a fatal error, this omission basically allowed Angelique to work her like a puppet. Part of the reason Angelique got away with so much was that she cast her spells in complete incognito. At that point also Reverand Trask was around to help capture Angelique if it came to that. Despite Angelique's powers I don't believe she could have defeated the whole town if they knew. I think she was only capable of casting one spell at a time.

[Cassandra]

Stefan wrote:

Despite Angelique's powers I don't believe she could have defeated the whole town if they knew. I think she was only capable of casting one spell at a time.

That may be true but that one spell could have very well have been the fatal one, and I don't think that Barnabas would be willing to take that risk on a loved one's life.  If it wasn't Josette, then it could have been Sarah, Naomi or Joshua. All in all it would have been fatal for someone he loved so he couldn't take that chance.

As for Rev Trask, I doubt very much that he would have believed Angelique was the witch.   As I mentioned in my above post, he had a one track mind and would have required alot of proof in order to believe that Vicky was innocent and Ang the guilty one.  And what  proof did Barnabas have?  The only real concrete proof he had was after Angelique had cursed him and by that time it was too late and there was no way he was going to reveal his secret to Trask.
His own father Joshua had to see Barnabas for himself as a cursed man in order for him to believe the truth.

 Another factor is that the Rev Trask knew very well how close &  fond Barnabas had become of Vicky in the recent months & how he was one of the very few who believed in her innocence.  This alone would make any accusations against Angelique being the guilty one and not Vicky only worse.

Look what happened to poor Ben. He finally got up the nerve to tell others the truth about Angelique in court when he testified about her sorcery, and still no one believed him.

What really should have woken everyone up was when Barnabas announced that he was going to marry Angelique.  I thought that then someone in the family would become suspicious.  And then to think it took someone like Peter Bradford to figure it out!

Cassandra

[stefan]

Cassandra wrote:

What really should have woken everyone up was when Barnabas announced that he was going to marry Angelique.  I thought that then someone in the family would become suspicious.  And then to think it took someone like Peter Bradford to figure it out!

Yep, more loose ends. I also think it would have been interesting if someone found out that Barnabas and Angelique had an affair in Martinigue, presumably at the same time he was starting to court Josette. Barnabas really does show poor judgement at times. Sleeping/or having sex in those days was just as bad, with his girlfriend's maid or the maid of someone he was attracted to to possibly be his girlfriend (I remember Barnabas mentioned he wasn't sure if Josette really cared for him at that point but even saying that, it's reasonable to assume he was starting to court Josette) was not a good choice. And also, I'm suprised he could look Josette in the eye with Angelique in the same room. You'd think he'd want Angelique away somehow. Just plain poor judgement and foresight. I recall JF saying in an interview that he tried to play Barnabas as a sad case or as somewhat pathetic. Considering when I ponder on these revealing aspects of his personality I can understand JF's assessment of the character.

[tripwire]

Another bad thing that resulted from the actor that played Jeremiah leaving was the introduction of the guy that played Dr. Lang, he was the voice of Jeremiahs ghost, and was way over the top in trying to warn Vickie about Barnabas after she had returned from 1795... He also played the would-be lawyer for her, till he heard her story about the future.... can still hear that silly "And the last one he will kill is youuu,   youuuuuu ,   YOUUUUUUUUUUUUUU"""

Tripwire>>   << Lang