How Did Angelique Get Her Powers?

[Philippe Cordier]

I don't think this question is ever answered, but 1840 provides the most clues.  Everything that has been said so far in these past few episodes implies that Angelique has had a continuous existence since the 1600s.  It sounds as though Angelique, or Miranda du Val as she was actually named, had been a villager in the town where Judah Zachary had his coven, and that she was an ordinary girl who was swept up into the cult like many others -- something is said about the entire town being "corrupted"; I don't remember what the name of the town was.  Later I think mention is made of her having been a serving girl at the time.

Amadeus Collins informs Miranda in 1692 that if she testifies against Judah Zachary, he will ensure that she gets safe passage out of the country.

This fits in with what we know of Angelique's past from 1795, i.e. that she lived in Martinique when she first met Barnabas.

The logical conclusion is that Miranda changed her name and identity and moved far away, like someone under the Witness Protection Program today.

Somehow in those intervening years, Angelique gained 1) immortality and 2) powers of witchcraft.

Regarding her longevity, Judah Zachary/Gerard says:  "She is Miranda du Val" -- note that he does not say that she "was" Miranda, but that she "is" Miranda.  He obviously regards her as having survived since 1692.  There is no suggestion that she is reincarnated.  "I found ways to survive -- perhaps she did too," he says.  And at another point, JZ/Gerard addresses Angelique (though she's not present):  "You have survived this long, but I will have the final satisfaction of destroying you."

It will be interesting to listen carefully for further clues to see how much more we can discover about Miranda's transformation into Angelique.

[Gothick]

Well, in the original 1795 story, Angelique's powers start out as very much the traditional Hedge Witch variety.  She needs a lot more to cast her spells in this first story than is the case later on.  I don't believe the Devil is ever mentioned by her, although of course Abby and the Rev think about him constantly--the sign of a really devoted servant (!).

In 1968, there's at least one scene there where CassAngelique is doing her thing (I believe it's the scene where she's killing Lang with her handy little voodoo doll), and she mentions conversationally that her powers come from "the Devil Himself."  This notion plays out with the eventual scenes where Nicky and Ange visit Hell.

In 1897, Ange starts out as a more or less independent supernatural being, then reverts to more Devil talk as the storyline advances.  There's a scene where she's casting one of her fire spells and she mentions that she's promised the Prince of Fire Quentin's soul.

just a few stray thoughts, grist for your mill.

G.

[Cassandra Blair]

It's so hard to say where it all began with girlfriend.  And I think the writers pretty much re-did her origins with the 1840 storyline.  Like so much of what happens on the show, I think when and where Angelique gained her powers is debatable.

Somebody else mentioned recently that in 1795 Countess DuPres mentions having known Angelique as an "uninteresting" girl.  Around that same time, (IIRC), something was also mentioned about Ange's mother as a village wise woman or some such.  If this were all true, it lends more the theory that Angelique was the reincarnation of Miranda.  Maybe Gerard/Judah could see through the flesh to her soul (if she still had one ), and saw this was the same girl who had betrayed him in 1692.

Then again, maybe Angelique was able to cast some kind of spell over the DuPres to make them think they had known her as a young 'un, and that they had known her mom.  The problem with this is, if she was successful enough as a witch to pull off that kind of a spell, why was she so inept with the spells we see her casting early in the 1795 storyline?  It's like she's just beginning, when she causes Barnabas to choke, or when she zaps Joshua into a cat - she seems surprised at her own strength.  This makes me wonder how she can have been a 125 year old witch at this point.

Of course too, the theory that Angelique was just Miranda under a different name seems strange when you consider that in 1796 she was working as a servant.  Maybe this was part of some greater plan on her part, but that doesn't seem plausible to me.  However, if she'd really pissed off the Devil, maybe that was her punishment - to be thrown into a different time, under a different identity, and to be forced to work as a servant as payback for her part in betraying Satan's homeboy Judah Zachary.

[wes]

  Angelique was Miranda Duval reincarnated.  She did have the full life as the girl Angelique Bouchard, rather than just come back womanly like we are used to.
  Yes, I'm the same poster who said Vicki was the daughter of Elizabeth Collins!
  So, you can say these are just my humble observations!
  Anyway, I get my information from pretty reliable sources.
  By the way, stay tuned for Lara's new book for more in this vein!

[Cassandra]

Im leaning more towards the theory of reincarnation here because if Miranda had really been a witch for all those years Im sure she would have been a real pro at it by the time she reached 1795 and landed in Collinwood.

  IMO, the way I see it is that when Miranda betrayed Judah in the 1600's all of her powers were probably taken away from her as punishment for this act.  Then, somewhere along the line in that lifetime she most likely made a pact with the master of darkness himself that if he gave her back her powers she'd promise to serve only him for all eternity.  This was done probably later on in her life and her wish was granted to her in her next lifetime, which was Angelique.  I also believe that once given back her powers she was also given back her old life's memory as a reminder of her betrayal in the past.

I also find it strange that Gerard/Judah should mention that he himself had survived all these years.  I was under the impression that he had just arrived now when Desmond found his head and bought it back to Collinwood. Otherwise, why wouldn't he have tried to destroy the Collins family in 1795 or at some other earlier date?  And if he did survive somehow, I don't think he can compare it to Miranda/Angelique's survival because she at least had a living body to live in.

Cassandra

[Mark Rainey]

IMO, the way I see it is that when Miranda betrayed Judah in the 1600s all of her powers were probably taken away from her as punishment for this act. Then, somewhere along the line in that lifetime she most likely made a pact with the master of darkness himself that if he gave her back her powers she'd promise to serve only him for all eternity. This was done probably later on in her life and her wish was granted to her in her next lifetime, which was Angelique. I also believe that once given back her powers she was also given back her old life's memory as a reminder of her betrayal in the past.

This is a sensible theory, and it would also lend credence to Angelique's origin as written in Lara's Angelique's Descent, which discards the Miranda story altogether. Given the show's propensity for reincarnated characters, this probably offers the most logical and internally consistent explanation (as if internal consistency is ever much of a determining factor).

--Mark

[wes]

  I asked Lara about it & this is exactly her thinking.  She was going to address the Miranda/Angelique relationship and keep it consistant with the show.  This was awhile back, so I don't know if she changed direction.  I don't think so, tho.  Mark, Anne Rice is gona be at Vroman's 11-7... I wish you would write DS books at the rate she writes those Vampire Chronicles!

[Mark Rainey]

Mark, Anne Rice is gona be at Vroman's 11-7... I wish you would write DS books at the rate she writes those Vampire Chronicles!

If the series were being continued as originally planned, I'd be writing more of them than people would ever want to read.

--Mark

[Philippe Cordier]

I would be happy to buy the reincarnation theory if there were evidence to back it up -- in the dialogue, voiceovers, whatever.  As it stands, it seems to be a theory that fans have developed to explain what is never made clear, and in fact the evidence seems to argue against it.  I agree that the theory would solve the question, but I need evidence, and the series does not provide that.

By contrast, there is no question regarding the reincarnations in the movie Night of Dark Shadows.  Quentin is the reincarnation of Charles, etc., and most of the characters are shown to be reincarnations.  Reincarnation is also made explicitly clear at other times within the DS series, so if reincarnation is what is intended here, why didn't the writers simply say so?  For some reason they did not, and the logical conclusion would be that this was because reincarnation was not intended.

Longtime posters may remember that I asked Lara Parker during a forum at the last WTC festival if she intended to address this issue in her next book, and she assured us that she was aware of the conflict and would be dealing with it.

I agree with CB that the writers re-did Angelique's origins with 1840, but they obviously didn't dot the i's and cross the t's.  Did they deliberately want keep us guessing?

I think Countess du Pres's comment in 1795 can be explained (if we're going to develop theories) without resorting to Angelique casting spells over everyone, which would seem rather pointless.  Angelique may simply have presented herself as a young girl, unchanged from her days as a young girl in the 1692 colonies, if she had somehow gained immortality not long after that.  The countess says "I knew her when she was an uninteresting child."  She doesn't specify an age, and, as an older woman condescending toward a servant, she could easily refer to a 17- or 18-year-old Angelique as a "child."  The countess's other comment about knowing Angelique's mother could also be explained.  Perhaps Miranda's mother was involved in the Judah Zachary cult, too, and had knowledge of witchcraft.  Regardless, Mrs. Du Val could very well have traveled with Miranda out of the country, to Martinique.  Mother and daughter could have continued their studies of the dark arts together.

Being a practioner of witchcraft does not necessarily result in one obtaining an exhaulted social status.  In fact, historically "witches" were usually poor women.  So I have no problem with Angelique being only a servant in Martinique.

Cassandra, I like your theory, but think it could easily apply to the scenario as I've outlined it without resorting to her then dying and reincarnating.

[Philippe Cordier]

Regarding Lara Parker's plans for her next book, I forgot to say that while it's understandable that we anxiously await what she has to say on the Miranda/Angelique business, what she does decide is basically her own ideas.  What I'm interested in is the original intent of the writers/producers.

In the introduction (or afterward, I forget which) to "Angelique's Descent," Ms. Parker says that she consulted with one or two of the writers of the 1795 period, but that no one remembered or knew how Angelique had become a witch.  Completely ignoring the 1840 storyline (was it also forgotten by DCP?), Ms. Parker then felt free to come up with her own story.

And while I admire the philosophical issues she grapples with in the novel, and much of the writing, I have to say that I don't accept much of Ms. Parker's story about Angelique as being in any way canonical.

[Philippe Cordier]

I disagree with the statements made here that Miranda couldn't have had a continuous existence as Angelique or else she would have been a better witch by 1795.

How fast does a witch progress?  What is the extent of the powers she, or any witch, is capable of?  The limitations?  Who were her teachers?  Did she study continuously for 100 years?  Was she in Martinique during the entire time, or might she have gone elsewhere to make here living first(e.g., Europe)?  At what point might she have become allied with Satan?  There are too many unknowns involved here, IMO, to make a generalization like "she would have been a better witch."

I'd say her powers were pretty damn impressive -- and scary -- when she arrived at Collinwood in 1795.

[Gothick]

Well, Vlad, last time I watched the episodes that involved the first spell we see Ange casting--on Barn's Rev War toy soldier--I'm afraid I laughed when the poor dear couldn't get the knot undone when she was trying to reverse the spell.

Tying knots is very much Craft 101.  Then there's her notorious difficulty with Basic Banishment.  She raises a ghost (Jeremiah) to perform a simple task and then can't rid of him?  In her defense, the ghost eventually goes away when the writers can't think of what to do next with him, but it reflects very badly on her skill level at this point.

I actually think it makes the story more interesting when Ange is barely competent and you see her trying hard to learn from her own mistakes.  Later on, when she becomes "Super Witch," it's not so interesting.  Of course, even at the height of her powers on the show, she was never capable of pulling some of the feats ascribed to her by some fan writers, such as the role Warren Oddson gives her in his articles in the DS Concordances published by Kathleen Resch.

In 1968, Cassandra seems a lot more powerful, confident, and assured in her Craft than 1795 did.  Her problem then is her tendency to indulge her own sadism--watch 'em twist in the wind when she could be getting the job done. That is what leads to her eventual downfall, although it could be argued as well that the Dream Curse was an unnecessarily clumsy, over-involved piece of spellcraft.  It's hard to tell with that whether she was motivated by the desire to see people like Maggie and Mrs. Johnson suffer on the way to achieving her goal, or whether she simply did not know any better, quicker way of getting the job done.

G.

[Midnite]

I think Countess du Pres's comment in 1795 can be explained (if we're going to develop theories) without resorting to Angelique casting spells over everyone, which would seem rather pointless.  Angelique may simply have presented herself as a young girl, unchanged from her days as a young girl in the 1692 colonies, if she had somehow gained immortality not long after that.  The countess says "I knew her when she was an uninteresting child."  She doesn't specify an age, and, as an older woman condescending toward a servant, she could easily refer to a 17- or 18-year-old Angelique as a "child."

Hi Vlad,

I cited that example in offering evidence against the Angelique-is-Miranda theory in the Angie's Logic topic, but there were other instances as well-- it was stated on numerable occasions that Josette and Angelique grew up together.  And, when Nicholas took away all of Cassandra's powers in 1968, he taunts her by first telling her that she "was born in Martinqique in the year 1774..."  All of this made sense at that point in the DS story, yet none of it does now that we're in 1840.

[wes]

) I'm not up on reincarnation, but I think the DS storylines support it.  It is implicit, if you look at the series as a whole.  I thought reincarnation was when the soul comes back & lives again from birth, in another body.  So Miranda Duvall is the witch Angelique in an earlier incarnation.  Angelique Bouchard is Miranda's reincarnation.  The other forms of Angelique (Cassandra, Valerie, etc are not reincarnations.  I think this was Lara's (and the writers') thinking.  The 1692 story tells the origin of Angelique -- she got her powers when she was Miranda. 

[Philippe Cordier]

Tying knots is very much Craft 101.  Then there's her notorious difficulty with Basic Banishment.  She raises a ghost (Jeremiah) to perform a simple task and then can't rid of him?  In her defense, the ghost eventually goes away when the writers can't think of what to do next with him, but it reflects very badly on her skill level at this point

I know nothing of tying knots, and I hadn't thought much of the implications of Angelique being limited in her ability to control forces greater than herself in 1795.  To those not versed in the Craft, which would include everyone else at Collinwood, the fact that Angelique -- or anyone -- could raise the dead would evince rather frightening supernatural powers.  As would the ability of a mere mortal to turn another person into an animal (Jermiah the cat  ).  Her vampire curse worked pretty well too, not to mention her courtroom resurrection experience -- so on balance, again my untutored impression is that Angelique has powers to be reckoned with.

I agree that Cassandra is an even more powerful and frightening figure, although in the past I've attributed that more to her personality (and Lara Parker's skills as an actress) than the level of her witchcraft.

But I'll be sure to keep your comments in mind if I ever view the series a third time!   

Midnite wrote:

I cited that example in offering evidence against the Angelique-is-Miranda theory in the Angie's Logic topic, but there were other instances as well-- it was stated on numerable occasions that Josette and Angelique grew up together.  And, when Nicholas took away all of Cassandra's powers in 1968, he taunts her by first telling her that she "was born in Martinqique in the year 1774..."  All of this made sense at that point in the DS story, yet none of it does now that we're in 1840.

I apologize if I'm repeating a discussion that was so recently held.  I had looked at that thread when it was new, but hadn't followed it and therefore missed your post and others on the topic.

I had forgotten the Nicholas Blair comment about Angelique being born in Martinique, so that's a good point.  Yet since 1840 comes later and seems to be the "newest" view of what we are to know about Angelique, I wonder if we as viewers are meant to "forget" some things that were mentioned some months (or even years) previously.  I think the writers/producers were counting on that.  Which should take precedence, then, the earlier understanding of Angelique's past, or the updated, later version meant to replace (or correct) it?

My hope is to harmonize the two as much as possible so we're not left with such an either/or choice.

I have to confess that I do not remember a single instance in the series itself where it is said that Angelique and Josette grew up together.  I know this is the view taken by Marcy Robin and Kathleen Resch in their excellent "Island of Ghosts," as well as picked up by Ms. Parker in her novel.  It's possible that I could have missed these lines on the show somewhere along the way, but are you able to pinpoint specific episodes?

If memory serves correct (my own "annotated" copy of the Pomegranate Press episode guide being unavailble to me), there are further comments still to be made in 1840 that seem to continue in the vein as those I've cited, i.e. indicating that Miranda did not die and reincarnate but continued in her existence under a new identity (perhaps aided by witchery) as Angelique.  Since I think there's more yet that will be said regarding this, that's why I mentioned in my initial post that we should keep our ears open!   

Regarding the "she had 100 years to improve herself and therefore couldn't have still been a servant" argument, again, we don't know what might have happened to her or how she may have been occupied during this time.  Are we to understand that if any one of us lives long enough, we'll be a great success?  (Guess I'll have to keep my fingers crossed that I have a long life ahead of me, because I sure haven't come close!)  Accepting the 1840 version as replacing any possible contradictory comments in earlier storylines, I imagine her as possibly emigrating to Europe, probably France, probably with her mother, before eventually moving to the French possession of Martinique.  17th century France (especially in aristocratic circles) was rife with mystics and occultists, and would have been just the environment for Miranda ... now adopting the French name Angelique ... to reacquaint herself with the Dark Arts she had foresworn (temporarily).  Rags-to-riches stories are fun, but if we take a more realistic approach, it would be quite a step up for a servant girl from the backwoods American colonies to become a servant girl at, say, Versailles, waiting upon the nobility, and being in the midst of occultist courtiers and mages.  The vast majority of people in centuries before our own lived quite humble lives; although being a servant would be low on the social scale, very few people lived artistocratic lives, and it's not unrealistic to think that while Angelique may have improved her situation and expanded her experience, she could still have remained, in essence, a servant. These are just my creative imaginings to explain things and make sense of things for myself ...

Wes's comments make sense, and I agree that what he says fits in with DS as a whole ... but I still think that adopting the reincarnation view here requires some inference and guesswork on the part of the viewer that is contradicated by specific 1840 dialogue