More Edits in DS DVD Set 7

[Raholt]

A few weeks ago I posted a message about finding an edit in the DS DVD set 7.  Well, now that I have about finished watching that set, I have now found 4 places in those episodes where the material was edited.  The places where the edits occurred were in spots where there was damage to the original materal and on the VHS version the screen would momentarily go black.  The latest edit I found dealt with a scene where Cassandra and Tony Petersen were in the study talking and it was a two shot with Tony back facing the camera,  Cassandra said "look into my eye" and suddenly it jumped to a closeup of Cassandra.  It was clear it was an edit.  Another edit took place in the scene where Lang was going to use Jeff Clark's head on his creation and Barnabas was debating whether he could go through with it.  I remember clearly that scene being damaged in the original VHS version and the screen going black for a moment or two.  Again on the DVD the edit is clearly visible because Barnabas is saying one thing and then is saying something totally different a second later.

It is clear now that with this set anyway the technical problems with the episdoes are definitely being edited out.  There is no question of it.  Once might be a mistake, but several times is someone, on some level, trying to clean up the series.  To me that is doing a disservice to the material and the fans alike.  If someone is embarrassed by the glitches that exist in the original DS material, I'm sorry, but that goes along with the charm of the show and is a part of the show.  Most fans understand and accept that.  Sometimes the glitches may be with the picture only and the sound still be there, but by editing that portion out, the sound material is lost as well.  To me this is like Joshua Collins rewriting history to suit himself and have history see what he wants it to see.  I'm sorry DS is not perfect but that is just part of it and trying to clean it up and take out all the blimishes may make it look better on the surface but is also taking away from the charm of the series, not to mention taking away some material as the edits don't seem to just take away the error but small bits proceeding the error as Midnite found was the case in the first edit I found.  This practice be it by Dan Curtis Productions, the place that is putting the show in digital format or MPI needs to stop or the material needs to stop being advertised as complete and unedited because even though entire scenes are not being cut, there are edits in the material which means it is not complete and not unedited.

Richard Holt

[CD_Tate]

I understand your frustration, and I tend to agree that in places where the video and/or audio is badly damaged, it would have been better if they'd just shown us whatever blemishes they have...  Rather than make split-second cuts around the unusable footage...

But I can't strongly fault them...  It's a no-win situation...  And these are meant to be commercial releases, after all, not archival recordings...  I think you're being nit-picky in your insistence that the sets no longer deserve to be called "uncut" or "complete"...

The sets are already far from perfect, what with all the kinescopes, that missing episode near the end, etc...   So I'm just thrilled to have 'em...

[wes]

The series, on DVD, should offer up the COMPLETE, UNEDITED episodes.  They should release what they say.  I have yet to buy the DVSs, and this "editing" disturbs me.  I think I'll just keep watching my tapes.  I also hope they are releasing the entire master -- like they did with the "Collectors' Series."  Otherwise, why should I buy the DVDs?  I would also love to see someone do a professional re-editing of the entire series, but SAY WHAT IT IS & DO WHAT YOU SAY!
 

[Raholt]

Your logic is good but has one fault to it and that is that the VHS version of the episodes were also for commerical release and they did contain all the fault, blemishes and bloopers that are on the original masters.  To me if it was good enough for that version, why is it not just as good for the DVD version?  I too am grateful to have the DVD's, but I also had hoped to replace my VHS tapes that take up alot of room with the DVD releases that take up far less room, but now that is not possible if I want the COMPLETE episodes.

I do not feel that I am nit picking when I question the terms COMPLETE and UNEDITED with regard to these releases.  Those terms imply that NOTHING has been omitted from the episodes and that they are being sold and distributed as they would have originally been telecast, including any flaws that may exist in them.  The VHS version did have a disclamer to them saying they were created from the best available material that exists.  This explained any faults or errors found in them.  The same could have been done for the DVDS, over making cuts, even minor ones, and calling them complete.

To me the VHS versions are complete, but some of the DVD releases are not what I would consider to be classified as complete.  That is the reason I question the use fo the term with these sets.

Raholt

[Dr. Eric Lang]

I don't know how you make a DVD but it's possible the edits you describe are not intentional. There may be some sort of technical criteria that's automatic during the transfer, and possibly if the software detects some black-out moment it is automatically deleted. :-

[joe integlia]

most of the edits ur refering to r correct except for one. the scene with cassandra/tony was always like that. its like that on vhs im sure. its been like that in syndication since day 1. i dont know if it was like that on abc or not. i worked at the tv station that was 1st to air these episodes in syndication in 1981 and i saw it then. perhaps it was 1 of the rare times they made a razor blade edit cause something real drastic took place.

[joe integlia]

i also dont think theres an auto deletion of black frames when they convert them to dvd format. i dont think they r going from the original masters to dvd.i believe they create what is called a sub-master probably on digital betacam videotape. they make their edits during the transfer to digital video, then the sub-master is used to make the dvds.

[doombuggy69]

As far as I can see, MPI is not cutting out any real scenes from DVD #7 that are not just damaged breaks in the tape that cannot be recovered.  The black cuts didn't air on ABC.  I have an original audio tape of the episode where Barnabas stops Lang from cutting off Jeff's head.  On my audio tape as originally aired on ABC, Barnabas rambles on and on to Lang for about 25 seconds. This dialog is missing from the current DVD, and syndicated version. This cut is the result of a break in the tape that most likely occured when Worldvision was preparing them for syndication in the 80's. MPI has no control over these damaged cuts in the tape.  They actually should be removed on the DVD's.  I don't have a problem with that.  What I do have a problem with is if MPI simply chops out whole scenes or bloopers.  I think since the Bathia Mapes fiasco, they now see from the fans the value of not altering anything more on them.

[Stuart]

I think serious video glitches should removed. A total loss of picture is technically not acceptable for broadcast or commercial release and should be snipped wherever possible. It's unfortunate that such deterioration is present, but rogue portions of "black" video aren't acceptable - those moments would never be considered fit for broadcast, even in the 1960s. There's a crucial difference between "charmingly flawed" and technically substandard.

[Raholt]

First off, the blacked out portions would have not aired on ABC because they didn't exist then.  It is not an original error on the master tape, but caused by the aging process.

Secondly, the edits in this volume may have been only in scenes where there was damage, but earlier DVD release contained damaged scenes and they remained on the DVD version, identitically like the VHS version.  Plus as Midnite informed us when the first one was found, there was more left in tact of the scene where the first edit in Set 7 was found, than exists on the DVD version so not just the damaged or blacked out parts are being omitted.

Also some of the blacked out portions still have their audio in tact so you don't miss any of the dialogue.  When that is edited so is the dialogue.

I'm sorry but I don' t buy the commerial release theory of this.  If it was good enough for the VHS versions and trust me they have all the bad scenes in them so it should have been good enough for the DVD version.  Frankly anyone who would buy the DVD's or VHS versions, for that matter, are primarily already fans of the show.  They may not have seen it in years, but it is rare that somoene who has not previously been exposed to the show actually decides to buy a video or DVD.  It is considered a cult classic, which means it appeals to a certain fan base and it will never be bought on a wide scale by the general public.  MPI knows this, but the audience for the material is so large and so diverse that it make it profitable to produce the material.  Therefore, cleaning it up is not going to sell more videos or DVD's.  It just is not and fans are used to the condition of the shows and most are just grateful that all but one episode survived the decades between their original airing and their release on home video.  Most other soaps of that day cannot say that.

To me, uncut and unedited means I'm seeing it all, warts and all, just like it was released on the VHS versoin.  Now I know that syndicated versions for Sci fi were edited, but again that is for broadcast and I can see doing that, but not for home video release.

The first edit found on the DVD versions was not a technical problem and was not a blackout scene, but the omission of one of the most famous bloppers in the history of the series.  The character of Bathia Mapes having to have her lines fed to her in the scene in the   tower room during the 1795 flashback.  The person off camera can plainly be heard on the VHS version but it is cut out completely in the DVD release.  It is like someone started there and decided that they were going to polish this show up.  I'm sorry, I don't want it polished up and I sure don't want to buy polished versions when they are said to be complete and unedited.

Now, I'm not blaming MPI because the blame for this could lie anywhere in the process of this from Dan Curtis Productions all the way to MPI, but someone is definitely trying to clean the series up and if it embarasses them, then I'm sorry but that is their problem.  To me the errors, goofs and technical glitches are just part of enjoying DS and if cleaning it up causes me to lose one second of one episode then I don't like that and I do not call that complete.

Raholt

[Stuart]

I'm still convinced that those glitches should be removed - they shouldn't be on the VHS tapes, and I'm glad it's been addressed...

Sure, in some cases, the audio survives where the picture doesn't, but DS is not a radio show - and unless you can manipulate the existing video material to cover those gaps, it isn't technically acceptable to leave it in without picture.

[Raholt]

Well Stuart, you and I will never see eye to eye on this subject because I feel as stongly about leaving the material in (warts and all) as you do about cleaning it up.

I will put it to you this way.  Films that have aged and been damaged, in ways that can still allow you to see or hear the material are kept in tact.  They are released in home video formats in that fashion and if it is good enough for films then to me it is good enough for a TV show.

To me, if it bothered me to see all the mistakes, glitches and bloopers in DS, then I would not watch it at all.  I would not have watched it 30 + years ago when it was originally on because some of the problems with the series existed then.  The audience accepted and relished the bloopers and still do.  To me, you will never make DS look like new or like a modern day production that is edited all neat and nice.  It was not made that way.  It was not shown that way and part of the charm is getting to see the material as it was shown originally.  If age has cause some minor glitches to form and most are very minor and not really worth taking the time to edit, in my opinion, it only adds to the charm.

If someone is trying to clean it up to make it more acceptable to the general population, all I can say is, don't waste your time because that is not the reason that it is not general population type material. This kind of material is really only for people who's taste run in that vein.  Others couldn't care less and all the polishing and cutting won't change their mind.  I know people who love the show and people who can't stand it and in both cases it has nothing to do with quality of the print, the material or the acting, but a matter of personal taste. 

Finally, if it was good enough for the VHS versions, then it should be good enough for the DVD versions and by the way, I don't remember hearing any complaints, at the time, when the VHS versions were released...warts and all.

Raholt

[Stuart]

As you say, you and I will probably never see eye-to-eye on this, but I maintain that it's valid.

No one is suggesting that these fixes "modernise" the show -- it's not intentional and its not realistic. However, to argue that it should be released in a technically substandard form because it is a show with a small market makes no sense to me.

DVD is a format with higher technical quality than VHS, which the DS releases should be aiming to match throughout, and the remastering is a crucial part in that. Similarly, regardless of whether it reaches a wider market, it should be comparable in quality to other cult television releases - that is the market its potential lies in, and that's the market that stores stocking the discs are aiming at.

Personally, I'm delighted with the DVD releases. For me, it's been like watching a whole other show and light years away from VHS.  I'm aware of several people I know who got hooked on DS from the DVDs - new people hop on all the time, and a more professional level of presentation plays a small but important part in that, I think.

[Raholt]

Maybe if it was just the blacked out part that was being edited, then I wouldn't feel as I do.  However, since some of the blackout parts are also taking small portions of existing good material with it, as in the case of the first edit found in Set #7, just before Harry Johnson arrives,  and some of the blacked out parts have dialogue which I think is just as imporant as anything seen on the screen then those things do bothers me.  What bothers me more is that bloopers are potentially also being edited out, like the one that I mention in that 1795 scene.  I was not the first to mention that one, nor was I the only one to complain about that little edit.  Most people who had that set didn't seemed very pleased to find that part missing.

I am a purest at heart as far as my tv and film watching is concerned.  I don't like seeing shows or films edited on television so that more commericals can be added.  I don't like seeing choppy scenes when edits are made where they were not originally intended to be.  I think that is less enjoyable than watching a bad technical problem.  I have seen too many good shows cut up for the sake of money and the all mighty dollar and scenes omitted that explain the next scene.  I just don't like and I don't like seeing it especially in a home video version of anything.

To me, I will say again, completed and unedited on the box should mean exactly that and nothing less.  Labels on packages are suppose to be honest and true and there are laws to back that up.  If material is faulty, there are plenty of VHS and DVD releases that state clearly that there are occasional technical difficulties in the original material and that alerts anyone buying the product that it is just part of the material in question and there is nothing one can do about it.  If material is edited, even slightly, that also is suppose to be put on the box.  What bothers me most about all this is that we are seeing one thing on the box and finding another thing inside.

If one wished to really take it to the extreme and say they wanted DS to not include technically inferior material, then that would mean skipping several episodes along the way because several of the kinescope episodes don't look or sound very good at all.  That material was originally skipped in the syndication package until they found that fans would rather see the material, even in an inferior condition than not see it at all.  The same could be said about edits made where any portion of the material is still there be it audio or video.

Raholt 

[mpi_marketing]

We definitely understand the concern regarding any potential editing in the Dark Shadows DVD Collections.  Any edits that have been made were done without the knowledge of MPI or Dan Curtis Productions.  As we said in an earlier thread, the remastering of the show was performed by an external company at an earlier time.

We have implemented an additional internal check to further ensure that no other edits have been performed without the knowledge of Dan Curtis Productions or MPI.

Thank you for your concern regarding these edits...In all aspects of the DVD releases, the intention has been to present the material in the most authentic fashion as possible.  We can assure you that we are not authorizing editing of any content in any fashion of the series.  Obviously, there are occasions when the source material has been damaged due to the age of the material.  We are, however, not making decisions to edit out bloopers or any other content as originally aired.

MPI