Ben and Daniel

[Philippe Cordier]

It looks like there's much to ponder in Raholt's post above, but I just logged in again to quickly add a couple of comments to my previous post.

We were led to believe that there was the ship Java Queen, Gerard was presumably the captain, and at least one time Daphne visited him there.  In 1840 all of that is simply forgotten.

A fan-written story, titled "The Java Queen," one of the very best fan stories I've read, nicely fills in this gap.  It also fleshes out suspicions that Gerard orchestrated events leading to Quentin and Tad's disappearance.  I believe that this may have been a story that Gothic referred to during the last run and which I later found online.  An excellent complement to 1840.  And yes, the writers do seem to have abandoned this interesting part of the story.

Raholt wrote:

The most interesting part of this storyline is in the early part of this segment for the most part.

Several people have said this, but it doesn't hold true for me ...  I'll have more to say later when the time comes relating to archetypes and mythology, which give the later parts of 1840 so much depth and interest, IMO.

[Raholt]

I know that at times it sounds like I'm picking apart DS and in particular this segment of the series, but I will tell you that I am a fan who looks at the show in a realistic way.  What I means is that I see the show as something I enjoy but also as something that is flawed at times and not perfect.  Some flaws, I excuse.  like actors goofing up or technical mistakes, but I'm far more hard on plot and story continuity problems.  I see most of those as being something that could have been controled because the previosly written material had to be available later on and with a bit of research many of the plot and story errors could have been avoided.   Therefore I'm more critcal of story errors and plot inconsistencies.  I just can't help it.  What has always fascinated me about DS and kept me being a fan of the show since it's original run was not the acting or the actors (I did enjoy the performances of most) or the special effects, but the story and the telling of the story.  The story is what kept me coming back for more and more.  I think the story overall is magic and more fascinating to watch unfold than any classic play, film or book.  So bare with me, if I sound too critical of plot points and alike, but for me I'm a fan of the story and when it is not what it should have been, I'm a bit disappointed.

Raholt

[Midnite]

One of the risks writers taken in doing a flashback that goes back in time farther than the one before and in this case falls between 2 flashbacks is that they will foul up on details, which they surely did in more than one way with this one.  The storyline is interesting but much is lacking in the way the detalis are handled or just ignored.  I know that in the original run, what is on now was being done well after 1897 and thus most people had forgotten  what they saw there and that only in reruns does it show to be a glaring error in continuitiy.

DS had one major fault and that was lack of keeping track with itself.  Dates seemed to be a primary source of this problem.  Often they  changed for no reason 

My biggest continuity gripe in this storyline-- the rewriting of Angelique's history.  Wandering the globe since 1795 while making annual pilgrimages to Collinwood?  Yet possessing knowledge of the current Collinses?  Don't.  Think.  So.  According to the story already laid out for us, girlfriend should have been in hell after Ben torched her.

(I'll save Miranda DuVal for another time, another thread. )

That is true that no mention of a ship is made except that Gerard had served with Quentin on board a ship, but the name of the ship is not mentioned that I recall.

It was-- the China Sea.

Raholt wrote:

I think the one thing that doesn't happen with 1840 that did happen with the plot leading up to 1897 is there is no reason given for why the ghosts suddenly appeared at Collinwood in 1970.  In the Quentin storyline, it is Chris and his curse that bring Quentin restless spriit back.  It is also his need for forgiveness from Jamison who he sees in David that is a driving force for his ghost.  Also his hatred for his family and their descendents makes him want in death what he could not have in life, which was Collinwood.

In 1840 we have nothing to explain why the ghost show up when they do.  There is no event to explain why they came back when they did and why they had not come back before.  Had a grave been disturb or a room found, something to show how and why the restless spirits of Gerard, Daphne and the children came back it would have worked to better tie 1840 to 1970.

My interpretation is that the emergence of Quentin's and Beth's ghosts was triggered by the appearance of Amy rather than her brother Chris.  And so from there I inferred that it was Hallie's presence in the house that roused the ghosts of Gerard and Daphne.

Maybe that happened with the 1840 plot.  It was laid out on paper, but the red pen quickly altered it without any thought to consistency and things already made clear in 1970 (such as Tad and Carrie dying at almost the exact time Quentin I did back in 1840; what was the importance of the Java Queen in all this; etc.). 

I recall David (while possessed by Tad) mentioning a Gabriel who accompanied his doctor in from town on horseback.  Obviously the writers kept the name but blew the only detail we learned about him in 1970.

Didn't the set up for 1795 also include a mention of pirates?  Something about Naomi's jewels?

[Raholt]

There is mention made of pirates and Naomi's jewels, but that is well before teh 1795 flashback.  Actually that goes back to just before Barnabas is released from the coffin and Mrs. Johnson is telling Willie about the legends of the Collins family and their jewelry.

Raholt

[Raholt]

Midnite wrote:

My biggest continuity gripe in this storyline-- the rewriting of Angelique's history.  Wandering the globe since 1795 while making annual pilgrimages to Collinwood?  Yet possessing knowledge of the current Collinses?  Don't.  Think.  So.  According to the story already laid out for us, girlfriend should have been in hell after Ben torched her.

I agree with this one Midnite.  First you have Ben burning Angelique in the mini 1796 flashback and then her being brought back by Quentin in 1897 so during the period in between, she should not have been on the earth.

Lets face it, the plotlines changed and were inconsistent based not so much on lack of caring on the part of the powers that be, but out of necessity, dictated by what the writers and producers wanted to show, who was contractually obligated to be on the show and other matters behind the scenes.  You have Angelique there because Laura Parker was under contract to appear on the series and they knew that nobody would want her to be anyone else but Angelique.  The same held true with, Frid.  He had to be Barnabas.  Even when the story jumped to PT 1841 and Frid was another character, most people still wanted to see him as Barnabas.  So what was popular with the audience also dicated less than consistent plot twists to accomodate what the fans loved to see.

1840 is relatively free of the sudden disappearances or writing out of a character for reasons aside from plot purposes.  In 1795, even though Jeremiah has always been said to have outlived and buried Josette, the chararcter of Jeremiah was killed off when Anthony George left the show.  In 1897, John Karlen's Carl was killed off because he was leaving the show and the same held true for Clarice Blackburn's Minerva Trask. In both cases the people playing the roles were leaving the show and the characters were written out for that reason.  The one exception in 1840 is the sudden disappearance of David Henesy and his character of Tad Collins.   

In all the flashbacks some of the facts presented prior to the actual flashback did change.  1840 is not the only one gulity of this kind of thing.  In 1795 much of what we see disputed earlier facts about the family but was explained away near the end by showing that Joshua Collins decided to write his own version of the family's fate in that time.  This excuse was used to show why the family was so different from what Vicki had always read about them being.  In 1897, some minor things were different from what we knew before the flashback began, but we didn't get as much pre flashback info on the 1897 family as we had in either 1795 or 1840.    1840 aside from 1795, gives us the most pre flashback info.  We know something about Gerard, Daphne, Tad and Carrie, not to mention a bit about Roxanne and we know that a playroom exists in 1840 Collinwood that doesn't seem to always exist in 1970.  We are given details about others like Gabriel as well.  We are also given a hint about what direction the story is leading, but when we get there that direction takes a major turn.  I think that is what makes 1840 a bit disconcerting is that it takes a major and a seemingly abrupt change in direction from what you expected to see unfold there, whereas the other flashbacks seemed to be a bit more subtle in the changes made or made an effort to explain them.

Raholt

[Cassandra]

we know that a playroom exists in 1840 Collinwood that doesn't seem to always exist in 1970.

That's another thing that bothers me here.  Why didn't the playroom exist in 1970??   It seems to be a part of the house during this run in 1840 and since all the other rooms in the house still exist from long ago (as we've seen each time they go back to the past) it has me now wondering just why the room wasn't there in 1970.   Surely, if there had been any renovations or changes done to the house, (such as changing the room to a closet) there must have been some sort of a record kept somewhere of this having been done.  And the strange part is that the replacement room is so much smaller than the playroom was. Usually, it's the other way around when doing renovations.


One of things that had me baffled during the early Barnabas pre-1795 days was when Barnabas and Vicky were holding a seance to contact the ghost of Josette. Josette came through and spoke only French!!   This led me to believe that Josette didn't speak English all too well, yet in 1795 she hardly spoke French, except for one time when she first arrived.

Cassandra

[Joeytrom]

When Barnabas first kidnaps Maggie, he tells her that he was Josette's tutor in English and thats when he first fell in love with her.

[Philippe Cordier]

When Barnabas first kidnaps Maggie, he tells her that he was Josette's tutor in English and thats when he first fell in love with her.

I vaguely remember that line.  Was that supposed to be in Martinique?

[Patti Feinberg]

That's another thing that bothers me here.  Why didn't the playroom exist in 1970??   Cassandra

Thank you Girlfriend; this bothers me too; come on folks, if you're going to do something cool like a disappearing room, at least give some credence to the explanation!

Patti

[Philippe Cordier]

Let's see, what was the original topic of this thread again?   

It seems there was dissatisfaction with the apparent age of Daniel in 1840 and his age as worked out chronologically based on information in the 1795 storyline.

The first episode last Friday should put matters to rest.  Daniel was talking with Desmond about the Bedford Atrocities ... He said they had occurred during a brief span of time in the Fall of 1803, when he had just turned 20 years of age.  That squares with dates from the original 1795 storyline, where Daniel was 12.  He would have been born in 1783, according to both the 1795 storyline and the 1840 storyline, making him 57 years old in 1840.

So, the writers seemed to know what they were doing, after all, in this instance.     I actually was never troubled by this whole age discussion since it appeared to me (as I wrote above), that the makeup staff was obviously trying to make Ben appear much older than Daniel.

It was reiterated in this same recent episode that Daniel has heart trouble.  So he was in ill health (physically as well as having deteriorated mentally), not a middle-aged man in good condition.  This could certainly justify others referring to Daniel as "an old man," especially given that the time period is 1840.

[Raholt]

Okay, now we have a definite age for Daniel and it does coincide with the 1795 storyline. Even with Daniel's health and mental problems, the way he is portrayed still gives the impression that he is older than 57.  What will always bother me is not so much that the rest of the family thought of him as an old man, that I can believe, but that Ben did.  In all fairness though, it could well be that when he says this to Barnabas that he is trying to make a point that he is not a boy anymore but an older man.  There are several things Ben says that aren't clear with regard to the fate of the 1795 survivors.

I will say that I favor the way Daniel is shown in 1840 to how he is described by Edith in 1897.  By her account he was a mean man who forced her and her husband (who she loved in that flashback) to live at Collinwood despite their wanting to move to the Old House and have a life of their own.  When she is dieing she says she won't go with Daniel and you can tell she hates him.  Daniel as shown in 1795 was an intelligent kind boy and you would get the impression for that time period that he would be the saving grace of the Collins family and the basis for the fairly good people who live there in the present day.

There is one other point about this storyline that does bother me and I wish the writers had not written it this way.  In this flashback without giving away the specifics, there is no way that the 1897 timeline could have happened as it did when we saw it.  Critical changes occur and there is a question of exactly how it would end up in the hands of the part of the family that it does end up with, since Quentin is the elder son and Tadd was his heir.  In the original timeline, Gabriel inherited Collinwood from Daniel and in turn Edith and then Judith and then Jamison and finally Elizabeth.  However, in this storyline, it would have gone to Quentin and then you would assume Tadd and any heirs he had.  If he had none then I can see it going back to the grandchildren of Gabriel and I guess that is how the writers thought of it.

I do find it interesting that we never see the children of Gabriel and Edith.  In 1897 the father and mother of Edward, Judith, Quentin and Carl are long since dead.  In 1840, the children (as it is stated) are away at boarding school.  This is a whole generation of the Collins family we never see at any time.

Raholt

[Joeytrom]

Daniel in 1840 is not exactly a kind man.  He did push his wife Harriet to her death over Widows Hill and both his sons and their wives are aware of this.  This would explain Edith's feelings for Daniel in 1897.  It was never contradicted anywhere about Daniel forcing Gabriel and Edith to live at Collinwood instead of the Old House, so that could have happened.  Perhaps he did that because he was afraid the "family secret" may be found out in The Old House.

As for Edith, she may not have been killed but just unconscious/comatose and revived eventually.

She  may have even married another Collins cousin, who died in 1863.

[Cassandra]

Raholt wrote:

I will say that I favor the way Daniel is shown in 1840 to how he is described by Edith in 1897.  By her account he was a mean man who forced her and her husband (who she loved in that flashback) to live at Collinwood despite their wanting to move to the Old House and have a life of their own.  When she is dieing she says she won't go with Daniel and you can tell she hates him. 

Well this part of the storyline does make sense to me as we've already seen just how unhappy Edith has been living in that house.  The scene in which she was complaining bitterly to her husband about how much she hates living there seems to go hand in hand with future occurances.

But, the one thing that doesn't make any sense is how Edith from 1897 was going on about how happy she was in the early days of Collinwood, when she and Gabriel were just married. She said they use to have many parties and then went on to say how she and Gabirel use to love to dance! I don't see how he could have been much of a dancer since he supposidly has been in that wheelchair since childhood!

Cassandra