Count Petofi and Comte de St.-Germain

A few years ago, this forum (actually its VantageNet forerunner) was responsible for my delving into a bit of research into secondary sources on the 18th century Comte de Saint Germain, whom someone had referred to as the inspiration for Count Petofi.

Recently in another thread, Gothick suggested some other potential candidates who may have contributed to the Petofi character. Without commenting on his information (which I'm less familiar with), I thought I'd share some of what I found out about St. Germain. Trying to find accurate information on the historical Comte de St. Germain isn't easy, so I may be saving someone else the time and effort of sorting through some of the rather questionable information surrounding him. (My interest in St. Germain happened to dovetail with another interest I was involved with at the time where St. Germain also made an appearance and incidentally introduced me to alchemy. It also gave me an idea for a section of my Angelique story -- which I'm not too optimistic about ever completing. My story has flashbacks of Miranda du Val leaving the American colonies for Europe, where she transforms herself into Angelique before winding up in the West Indies ... )

I should also mention that doing a simple web search on St. Germain isn't as easy as you might think. There are endless variations on the form of the name: sometimes "saint" is spelled out, sometimes it's abbreviated "St."; sometimes there's a hyphen between Saint (or St.) and Germain and sometimes not; sometimes one sees "Comte" (French for "count") and sometimes "Comte de" with any of these variations, and sometimes "Count." Once you've gone through all those possibilities, much of the information about St. Germain you'll find on the Internet is unreliable, to put it mildly.

The Comte de St. Germain (a pseudonym; his real name is unknown) was a "mystery man" of apparently unlimited wealth who moved among the highest circles of nobility in Europe in the late 1700s, charming several of the crowned heads of Europe, who usually gave him free lodging on palace grounds sometimes for years (remind you of Collinwood's many extended guests? ). In the centuries that followed, myths about him grew, until he became an immortal figure said to still be living today, or an Ascended Master. Dubious memoirs circulated wild rumors about his strange powers, prophecies, and immortality. He became popularly associated with secret societies and alchemy. Despite the speciousness of some of the claims about him, authentic sources of the time do recount him as a remarkable man, though a few detractors considered him a charlatan and liar. (The sardonic nature of Voltaire's often-quoted reference to him seems to have gone over the heads of the "true believers.")

The Comte was fluent in many languages, was an accomplished painter, violinist, and composer. (Some of his music has been published by the Philosophical Research Association; none of his paintings are extant.) When he died (his death in 1784 and his will are well documented), it was discovered that he owned nothing but some old clothes and toilet articles. No paintings, diamonds, books, manuscripts, musical scores or instruments were found.

A highly skeptical account of the "Comte's" doings can be found in The Myth of the Magus by E. M. Butler (Oxford Univ. Press). That's probably the best overview -- especially if you enjoy a little debunking. The most detailed source I discovered is a scholarly biography by Jean Overton Fuller, The Comte of Saint Germain, published in England in the 1980s. Fuller is a Theosophist, i.e. a member of a metaphysical group that claims St. Germain as an Ascended Master. Fuller gives the Comte the benefit of the doubt on nearly every front, but she also bravely cuts through the vast amount of unreliable sources and fabricated testimonies to reveal him as primarily a chemist and entrepreneur who had a philosophical bent. She discounts the popular beliefs that he was an alchemist, a Mason, and denies his reputed authorship of "La Tres Sainte Trinosophie" (The Most Holy Trinosophia).

After all this library legwork over the years, I recently found a website for the "Fortean Times" that is unique in presenting accurate information about St. Germain. The article was written a couple of years ago (after I had done all of my reading). The URL is:  
http://www.forteantimes.com/articles/146_stgermain.shtml

Despite Fuller's efforts towards a balanced biography, her account fails to even consider what kept nagging at me as I investigated other sources: the "count" sounds suspiciously like a con man. A year or so after I had done most of my reading, French conman Christophe Rocancourt was in the news and I was struck by a number of similarities. Both St. Germain and Raconcourt were suave, polished men who moved comfortably among top celebrities, gave the appearance of great wealth, were fluent in many languages, were art connoisseurs, and traveled much of the globe under a variety of aliases. In reality, the jetset Rocancourt was a lower class conman with a rapsheet who was busy bilking investors on the East coast while wining and dining Hollywood celebrities on the West coast (he was kissed by Mickey Rourke and married a Playboy centerfold). Rocancourt was known as the "Hamptons Hoaxer" and the "Counterfeit Rockefeller," after his claim to be heir of an otherwise unknown French branch of the Rockefeller family. (He is actually the son of a prostitute and is currently being extradited from Canada to the U.S. to face a number of charges.) St. Germain claimed to be a long-lost scion of the Transylvanian House of Rakoczy and rightful heir to a throne.

What does all this have to do with Petofi? Petofi does have a few things in common with the Comte de St. Germain: both are cultured sophisticates who travel under false identities, both claim titles, are supposedly immortal and possess magical powers. The Comte might well have been the initial inspiration for the Count. However, the path diverges from that point on. Petofi's associations with the gypsies, his suffering from the werewolf curse, his ownership of the last unicorn, and his evil nature turn him into a very different character from the real life Comte de St. Germain.

Vlad...thank you.
That was very interesting.
I know of the "Counterfeit Rockefeller."
Patti

Is this the same St. Germain that Elizabeth Clare Prophet and her gun-packing cult latched onto?  I may still have a copy of one of their books around.  (My friend's mother bought it by mistake years ago because she thought, from the cover picture, it was about Angels revealing the big secret of Fatima, or something like that.)

And what a coincidence (?) that this character claimed to be related to a noble family named Rakoczy--- close enough to the DS gypsy "Rakosi" (or however the DS writers spelled it.  It seems they were all over the place, in the literary field.)

I have a magazine with an article about the American beginnings of the St. Germain cult (prior to Prophet), which began in New Jersey, of all places, and still has an HQ there.  Interestingly, they've apparently registered copyrights on the names "St. Germain" and "Ascended Masters", with the encircled-R symbol following these terms at all times.

Thanks Vlad, that was so informative.  I'd heard mention of the Comte de St. Germain in a few books, but didn't really know much about him.  Now my interest is Stoked (pun intended) to find out more about the man.  Do you really think this is where the DS writers came up with the idea for Petofi?  

Interesting analysis, Vlad.  It seems that the ancienne regime was especially fascinated by gentlemen with mystical powers.  Charlatan, magician and adventurer Count Cagliostro might also have been an inspiration for the Petofi character, although he might have been a less accomplished one.  

Franz Anton Mesmer, the psychic healer, also springs to mind, although he may be more of a reach.  Apparently his reputation as originator of hypnosis is wrong as it was, allegedly,  one of Mesmer's students who came upon that method by accident.    

BTW, love that St. Germain paper doll!

Is this the same St. Germain that Elizabeth Clare Prophet and her gun-packing cult latched onto?

Yes. The Church Universal and Triumphant believes that St. Germain was the reincarnation of Francis Bacon and I forget who else.

And what a coincidence (?) that this character claimed to be related to a noble family named Rakoczy---close enough to the DS gypsy "Rakosi"

Wow, I hadn't noticed that. I, too, now wonder whether it's just coincidence.


Cassandra Blair and Happybat, I'm not actually the person who proposed that St. Germain was the inspiration for Petofi. It was referred to on the VantageNet board by a couple of posters as a given, something that everyone knew. I think I may have come across a reference to St. Germain in a "real life mysteries" sort of book when I was in junior high, but such an association did not immediately spring to mind when I viewed the Petofi episodes for the first time a couple of decades later.

Mfmiozza may have been someone who brought this up on VN, but I'm really not sure. I'm pretty sure that whomever it was quoted Lela Swift (I know it was a female member of the DS team) as saying she wanted to bring in a character modeled after Comte de St.-Germain.

-Vlad

I came across St. Germaine when I was doing research on astral projection for a fan fiction story that I was writing. I needed one of my characters to take Barnabas back in time but not via the I Ching. St. Germaine is associated with The Violet Flame which I used to transport Barnabas back to 1795.
Don't ask me to explain it--just put The Violet Flame in Search.

One of the authors I do online publicity/marketing work for, Chelsea Quinn Yarbro, has a long-running series of historical horror novels about Count Saint-Germain. In her series she takes the real man's claim of "immortality" a step further and made him a vampire. The first book, HOTEL TRANSYLVANIA (1978), was reprinted last January and has an essay on the real-life man in the back of the book. The 15th book, NIGHT BLOOMING, came out last fall.

Is this the same St. Germain that Elizabeth Clare Prophet and her gun-packing cult latched onto?  I may still have a copy of one of their books around.  (My friend's mother bought it by mistake years ago because she thought, from the cover picture, it was about Angels revealing the big secret of Fatima, or something like that.)

And what a coincidence (?) that this character claimed to be related to a noble family named Rakoczy--- close enough to the DS gypsy "Rakosi" (or however the DS writers spelled it.  It seems they were all over the place, in the literary field.)

I have a magazine with an article about the American beginnings of the St. Germain cult (prior to Prophet), which began in New Jersey, of all places, and still has an HQ there.  Interestingly, they've apparently registered copyrights on the names "St. Germain" and "Ascended Masters", with the encircled-R symbol following these terms at all times.

Yes it is the same Saint-Germain.

Chelsea Quinn Yarbro's Saint-Germain-as-a-vampire persona is also a copyrighted fictional character (i.e. people can write about the real life man but the vampire persona is hers). Unfortunately Quinn has had to point it out many times in fan fiction related issues. :-(

Chelsea Quinn Yarbro's Saint-Germain-as-a-vampire persona is also a copyrighted fictional character (i.e. people can write about the real life man but the vampire persona is hers). Unfortunately Quinn has had to point it out many times in fan fiction related issues. :-(

That's interesting.  So even if the ff is written for recreation and not for profit, the creator can still prevent fans from writing about it?

BTW, it's great to see all these posts from you, Wiley!

That's interesting.  So even if the ff is written for recreation and not for profit, the creator can still prevent fans from writing about it?

BTW, it's great to see all these posts from you, Wiley!

Thanks Midnite! I don't get to post as often as I would like but love reading the boards.

Yes re: copyright. There are many authors who do not allow fan fiction to be written using their characters. Besides Quinn, I know that Anne Rice and Robert Jordan do not allow fan fiction from their character. Profit is not always the underlying reason -- distribution, contractual/legal/publisher reasons also come in to play.

But the profit issue does make some authors nervous: if everyone can write their own story/book using a character an author created, then why would anyone need to buy said author's books?

In Quinn's most infamous case in the early 1990s, a fan wrote her and said "can I use your vampire in my story?" Quinn wrote back and said no, that for many reasons she cannot allow fan fiction to be written using her vampire Saint-Germain, and suggested that the fan come up with her own vampire character. A bit of time passed and Quinn's lawyer found a fanzine at a party she was attending that had a story featuring vampire St. Germain plus TWO of Quinn's other characters.....and the note from the magazine's publisher said something to the effect of "Chelsea Quinn Yarbro was not supportive of the idea but we thought the story was good so we will publish it anyway and hope she will forgive us." It was eventually settled out of court with all copies of the zine recalled and turned over and apologies were advertised in Publishers Weekly and other science fiction and horror publications and organizations.

Some authors *do* allow fan fiction to be written.....but IMHO it's best to ask first when someone wants to do a story with a character from a book....

Here's a list that has some authors' policies posted if anyone is interested.

http://www.writersu.net/?link=authpolicy

Amazing -- the 18th century chemist and businessman is now a New Age "saint" and a vampire!?!

Although biographer Jean Overton Fuller represents St.-Germain's primary interest as developing dyes for fabrics (this is what the documentary evidence shows), it's clear that he at least had a philosophical side, and that of an esoteric and metaphysical nature. The record is vague as to the precise nature of his esoteric interests and involvement.

Fuller reproduces a poem he wrote in French which she claims is unique in its philosophical/metaphysical outlook. She even goes so far to say that the poem reveals a depth of metaphysical wisdom (note, these are my terms, I don't recall her exact terminology) unparalleled in anything else ever written.

This is a pretty heady judgment, and one I question. When I investigated medieval alchemy texts, I saw some of the same ideas expressed, and in a similar manner, as in the poem written by Comte de Saint-Germain. This suggests to me that he was familiar with alchemy -- and may have practiced it (something Fuller rejects on the basis of there being no documentary evidence and the result of later mythologizing about him).

So he may have had esoteric, philosophical interests.  This makes him an interesting man in my book, but unfortunately it doesn't dismiss the possibility that he may have been little more than a charlatan, akin to some New Age gurus of our own time.

http://www.writersu.net/?link=authpolicy

Thank you for the link-- VERY eye opening.  And how reckless of that fan to go ahead with the story, sheesh.

Imagine the legal fees in trying to keep up with all the fan stuff.  Ugh.

Amazing -- the 18th century chemist and businessman is now a New Age "saint" and a vampire!?!

Although biographer Jean Overton Fuller represents St.-Germain's primary interest as developing dyes for fabrics (this is what the documentary evidence shows), it's clear that he at least had a philosophical side, and that of an esoteric and metaphysical nature. The record is vague as to the precise nature of his esoteric interests and involvement.

Fuller reproduces a poem he wrote in French which she claims is unique in its philosophical/metaphysical outlook. She even goes so far to say that the poem reveals a depth of metaphysical wisdom (note, these are my terms, I don't recall her exact terminology) unparalleled in anything else ever written.

This is a pretty heady judgment, and one I question. When I investigated medieval alchemy texts, I saw some of the same ideas expressed, and in a similar manner, as in the poem written by Comte de Saint-Germain. This suggests to me that he was familiar with alchemy -- and may have practiced it (something Fuller rejects on the basis of there being no documentary evidence and the result of later mythologizing about him).

So he may have had esoteric, philosophical interests.  This makes him an interesting man in my book, but unfortunately it doesn't dismiss the possibility that he may have been little more than a charlatan, akin to some New Age gurus of our own time.

Vlad --- thought you may be interested in a list of books about the historical Saint-Germain cited in Quinn Yarbro's essay "My Favorite Enigma"
in her 1983 short story collection THE SAINT-GERMAIN CHRONICLES (# 6 in the series). Don't know if any of these are still available but research libraries may have them somewhere in the world:

Jacques Casanova de Seingalt, MEMOIRS
A. Cockren, ALCHEMY REDISCOVERED AND RESTORED
Madame la Comtesse de Genlis, MEMOIRS
Baron von Gleichen, MEMOIRS
Poems Philosophiques sur l'homme
Grove's Dictionary of Music and Musicians

And her essay includes a list of Saint-Germain's music that was available as of 1983, but not in the U.S.
Musique Raisonee
Six Sonatas for Two Violins with a Bass for the Harpsichord or Violencello
Seven Solos for a Violin

There's also an essay she wrote called "From Dracula to Saint-Germain when she decided what aspects of vampirism, etc. to use when she began developing the idea for the series around 1971 but I'm having trouble inserting the link, will try again later.

Here's the link I mentioned from Yarbro's "From Dracula to Saint-Germain essay/speech she gave in 1997 as a keynote speaker at Boston College. It's a condensed version; the full version goes into more detail.


http://www.stealthpress.com/store/authors/Chelsea_Quinn_Yarbro/essay.asp?mscssid=D05G40V9