How to explain 1840 Angelique...?

[MagnusTrask]

This thread can't help but to be full of spoilers, so I won't spoilerize them separately but just warn people here.

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Years ago I guess, I started a thread asking about Angelique's personal timeline.  Then, I had a huge gap in my tapes from the middle of 1795 to early 1897.   I thought it made sense for 1840 Ang later to become 1968/1897/1970 Ang.  Some people kindly went along with me on that, but now that I have that gap mostly filled, I know the idea won't fly.   Cassandra came straight from 1795/6.  We know that.  Every time we've seen Angelique since then, it's been a bit further along in her personal history... until 1840.   1897 raises interesting possibilities, since she didn't come by her own choice and we don't know how much time elapsed for her between 1968 and 1897, but she definitely is an Ang who was Cassandra, earlier.   Earlier for her.

I'm practicing moderation in my use of analgesics tonight, so I'd better not try to post my current 1840 Ang theory tonight.   Next time.   I'd be glad to hear anyone else's in the meantime, though......

[Taeylor Collins]

I thought it was interesting that they made her the Angelique from 1795 and she didn't know that she would be living in the future. However, if Angelique came directly from 1795 to 1968 then I guess she should have known.  Time paradoxes can be quite confusing to me. Although The Physics of Dark Shadows helped me understand them better.

I have to wonder if her death though changed all of her previous visits to Collinsport. Actually 1840 raises a lot of questions about other flashbacks.  I am bit tired so I am not going to get philosophical, but this is a cool post and I will expound more on it later!

[MagnusTrask]

I like 1840 Ang being of her time too, I just wish it made sense.   Someone, maybe Lydia, had an idea about parallel alternate time lines, that this 1840 isn't the past of RT1970, but [spoiler]changing this 1840 seems to change our 1970/1, so this 1840 must be RT1970's past.   Then again, we don't see much of RT1971.[/spoiler]

I have a Second Witch theory.   Barnabas (consider this whole thread one big spoiler please everybody) throttled Ang in 1795.  She was buried.  Ang reappears as a ghost, causes more trouble.  At some point, her body is found to be missing from her grave.  Then 1795 ends with Vicki propelled back to 1967 or 8.   A more corporeal Ang with black hair follows on Vicki's heels to 1968.

Presumably they had Ang's body disappear so as to explain, slightly, Cassandra as a physical being.  Diabolos revived her, and helped her time travel.   That doesn't explain 1840 though...

I say Diabolos (or his master, if he's just the front man) can take ghosts and reconstitute them if he wants, without the original body.   If Daphne can come back, the devil can do it too I think.   So Diabolos reconstitutes Ang's ghost and flings her toward 1968.   

What about the missing body?   If Angelique can get shot and reverse the effects, maybe her body can restore itself eventually too.   If we think of a spirit arising out of the physical brain and body, a mind possibly being an "emergent property" of the brain/body, as a lot of people believe these days, then this restoration could eventually lead to an Angelique soul gradually reforming, perhaps even with some memories surviving.    Judah did something like that, maybe.

I doubt Barnabas or Ben sprung for a very good coffin, in any case, an Angelique powerful enough to regenerate could certainly deal with a coffin lid and/or a few inches of dirt.

So one Angelique digs herself out, leaves town, and only comes back on their anniversaries.   Technically there's another Angelique, but not in 1795/6 or for many years after.   The second Ang that we know isn't going to exist for years and years (1968).   That second Ang comes back to 1796 briefly, gets burned by Ben, then goes back to the future again.   Of-her-time Ang meanwhile goes off to Hell, where Diabolos doesn't tell her about her other self, who doesn't exist at that point in time anyway, or Ang lives on the surface all those decades until 1840.

[Gothick]

All I can ever say on this topic is that when watching it back in the Sixties, it somehow made perfect sense.  I now see how outrageously it flouts the continuity that had been established for Angelique.  I think that at that point, Lela Swift was the de facto head writer orchestrating the storylines, the position that DC himself had formerly occupied, and some fan reported from an old newsletter from 1970 that it was Lela's idea to introduce a storyline involving a romance between Barnabas and Angelique.

On some level, I simply accepted that this Angelique was the same person we had seen before, but this time, instead of her knowing of all that had happened since 1796, she was the immortal Witch who had roamed the earth since that time.  I don't think I actually remembered the lines that established that Angelique had been confined to Hell, first between 1796 and 1968, and then subsequently after her disappearance in 1968 and invocation by Quentin in 1897.

It actually makes even less sense that the Angelique brought back in 1897 would know and recall events from 1968.  I suppose one could argue that Barnabas's use of the dangerous magic of the I Ching had not only propelled himself backwards in time; it had also created some kind of space-time warp that allowed for Angelique's reappearance from her time in '68, AND Julia's subsequent visit as an astral body (one of the most idiotic of all their ideas, given the rules said to govern astral travel, but don't get me started).

G.

[MagnusTrask]

Thanks for that, Gothick.   We have home video to blame for our noticing discontinuity... we can have one era fresh in our minds while watching another.   (Too obvious a point I guess.)   Anyway, I don't think Angelique needs an explanation for knowing 1968 while in 1897.   She can send herself and others through time apparently, or her "master" can.   Also, I think Ang's route through time (up through 1897) is:  1795>1968>1796 (where she's burnt)>1897.

Since in 1897 she's not as anxious to deal with Barnabas anymore, as a husband or enemy, some time has passed for her.  Between 1796 and 1897 I'll say she's been in Hell.   If my Second Witch Theory works, then she would meet herself in Hell, but never mind....

[Gerard]

DS did create paradox problems with travelling through, and altering, time, but here's my take on the whole thing regarding Angelique.

Original timeline:  1795/96, curses Barnabas, is killed by him, but because she is a powerful witch she does have a semi-immortality and is quickly resurrected; she leaves Collinsport for other parts of the world, creating Endora-ish mischief here and there, but sneaks back to Collinsport every once in awhile to check on her previous "work" and, finding Barnabas still in his coffin, she goes back to harassing Samantha and Durwood; in 1968 during her latest sneak-back, she discovers that Barnabas has been released and is cured so, to restore her curse, she disguises herself as Sarina, I mean Cassandra.  When all that fails, she temporarily is punished by Diabolos and then allowed to go on her way but she decides to keep a wide berth away from the Collinses.

First changed timeline:  see above until you get to 1897; Barnabas has gone back in time and Quentin, along with his shifty lawyer, cast that spell to bring forth someone to help in their battle against Barnabas and guess who they get?  Why her?  She probably wasn't planning to do one of sneak returns that particular year; she was probably somewhere else with Hexaba but the strength of the spell grabbed her, maybe because of her relationship with Barnabas.  After everything is resolved, she goes on her way.  But does she still can't stay away forever so, seventy years later, she still pulls her Cassandra schtick.  But then, seeing how everything she did because of her obsession with Barnabas always backfires, she decides, this time for sure, to stay away and get herself a new lifestyle, so she decides to play mortal and ends up dating and marrying a total bore named Skye.

Second changed timeline:  everything from 1796 up to 1840 - she sneaks back to check on Barnabas only to discover, because he's gone back in time again, that he ain't in the coffin.  When, in 1841, she's turned totally mortal, she, well, we all know what happened to her.  Back in 1971, she no longer exists.  Or does she?

Gerard

[Bob_the_Bartender]

Trying to make sense out of Angelique's "rather" convoluted timeline throughout the centuries is sort of like trying to make sense out of the White House economic team's "on-going" economic strategy.

[Taeylor Collins]

Great thoughts from everyone. I wonder if 1840 changed all of it. I wonder if her being killed in 1840 stopped Cassandra from every showing up in 1968, 1970, and 1897?  One has to also wonder if it changed Grandmama being around since Edith was killed. I kind of thought that maybe since we didn't see Edith buried or a funeral that maybe in fact she hadn't died and was revived. Sometimes in those days people were not always sure people were dead.  I am going to continue to ponder all this while I go get some Excedrin Migraine! And just for good measure I just recently watched 1840 and fast forwarded it through the I LOVE YOU ANGELIQUE scene with Barnabas and for some reason during that scene Grayson (not Julia) seems to be digusted to me, just my opinion of course.  It always wants to make me barf.  I have to say though if the show had continued I AM SURE Angelique would have shown back up at some point.  I just read in a Grayson FAN CLUB Newsletter I got at Seaview during a Raffle, and this is from Grayson's lips, that 1841 was only intended to last for 5 months.  So if the show had continued they would have probably returned to 1971 once they figured bought some time while doing 1841 and figured what they wanted to do with a future storyline! 

[Bob_the_Bartender]

Taeylor Collins

On one of those 1840 dvds, actor James Storm (Gerard Stiles) mentioned that after he was "killed off" on the show,  the management informed him that he would be called back for costume measurements in the expectation that he would return as possibly Gerard Stiles sometime in the future.  Perhaps this means that the Dark Shadows Powers-That-Be/Were anticipated that the show would go on beyond April of 1971?

As to Angelique's presumed demise, I have heard speculation, that when Barnabas, Mrs. Stoddard and Dr. Hoffman returned home from Roger's, no doubt, fascinating  speech at the Collinsport Historical Society, they were all shocked (but especially Mr. B. and Dr. H.) to see Angelique waiting for them in the Collinwood drawing room, sipping a brandy, and looking like the cat who swallowed the canary.

Bob

[Taeylor Collins]

Hey Bob...I saw that interview while viewing those eps and I put it with the Grayson interview and figured the same thing. 

As for Angelique that would have been a pretty awesome development; although I think it would have been cool if she was gone for about six months and returned.  I think that would have been pretty effective! 

As for all the paradoxes; I will add more later when my mind is more fresh.  1840 being the last flashback surely does raise a lot of questions. I always wondered if Gabriel's children were Judith, Quentin and Edward then I remember that Edith wouldn't be Grandmamamaaaa (as Quentin said one time) HEE HEE  I guess they were Tad's kids? 

Also I wondered where Flora came from? Is she another branch of the family like Millicent was?  Or perhaps Milicent recovered and had kids? 

I need another Excedrin..

[Bob_the_Bartender]

Taeylor Collins,

Sometimes, the exact family relationships within the Collins family are as perplexing to figure out as those within the Walton family, and, possibly, even the Manson family! 

Bob

[MagnusTrask]

Several body parts are tasking me tonight, and none of the fun ones, so I'll keep this short, limiting self just to the first comments, the only ones I dare read yet (at least until some pills kick in)....

I'd love to think that original-timeline Ang passed through 1840 w/o Barn, then lived up top or down below until 1968, when upon looking in on BC on their anniversary, found him alive.   That's far less torturous than my theory.   Wasn't it stated onscreen though, that Ang followed Vicki straight from 1795?   If it was just an idea of Vicki's, that can be discounted.

Cassandra did seem thoroughly familiar with 1968, not freshly blown in from the 18th century.

[Mysterious Benefactor]

You make a good point, Magnus. A lot of the confusion about Angelique in 1840 stems from the belief that she went from 1796 to 1968 - but there's not actually anything on the the show that says that. Fans tend to assume that's the case because 1796 is the only time we'd seen Ang before the 1968 storyline, but it's not stated anywhere in the 1968 storyline that Nicholas and Ang met up in 1796. So, there's a possibility that they met up after 1840. And if that is the case, then Ang's timeline can make sense and it can also make sense that in 1840 she had no knowledge of the future or her future self...

[emeraldeyesonly]

Doesn't some of that confusion stem from Angelique saying that it was from Vicki's ramblings in the past that she knew Barnabas existed in 1967/68? It's never stated that Nicholas existed in 1795-96, only that Angelique was allowed to return to re-curse Barnabas. He does get extremely pissed at her when her Dream Curse scheme failed to achieve its goal. Since Barnabas did strangle Angelique to death in 1796 and she was seen as a ghost, I always assumed that Angelique and Nicholas met up in Hell and cut a deal, enabling her to return in '68. This, of course, makes her existence in 1840-41 even more of WTF? than it already was. lol 

[Mysterious Benefactor]

It's always dangerous to assume - especially on DS.