SYT Slight Change of Perspective

One of the earlier threads (concerning who should Barnabas end up with) got me wondering about the ongoing SYT syndrome our favorite vampire insists on suffering with.  I have always written that off as a product of chauvinism...my thoughts were, well, the writer/producer/director GUYS want this 40 something GUY to only be involved with wide-eyed 20-somethings because that would be THEIR fantasy.  It seemed obvious.  But you know, looking back it could be that women viewers might want this at times too.  Think about it girls - when you identify with a character in a romantic situation who do YOU want to look like...a 22-year-old with a flowing mane of hair and a drop dead figure or your mother with a football helmet hairdo in a tweed suit?  Speaking as one who is now the same age or older than Julia's character I KNOW I*d rather imagine having the wrinkle free buffed bod and the long gorgeous hair to add to the mix...even IF the guy isn*t as young as he used to be.  Of course, if we*re talking about anything involving Quentin then the latter arsenal would definitely be essential!

Interesting theory and I think there is something to it. I don't think romance novels with overweight, middleaged women as heroines would go over nearly as big!

However, for myself only, I found Barney VERY attractive when I was 13. I thought him SO romantic and appealing and wanted him to whisk me away, though maybe not to the cellar room... Watching for the 3rd or 4th time as a 47 y.o., I don't find him that attractive. I think it is mainly that the tortured soul is boring to me now. Jonathon Frid himself at the age when he played Barney is more than OK, it isn't that.

Unfortunately for me, when I am out and looking at people, my eye always seems to spot men in their early thirties as hotties. I hardly ever see a guy my own age/older and think "Wow!" I can think of exceptions
like Sean Connery and David Selby, OF COURSE! But, I would say that the thirties for me were the best age and that is what I still seem to "go for", at least visually.

I personally think there are a lot of issues to lead men to want a SYT, just as there as issues for the SYT to want a man old enough to be her father. For the man, insecurity in his sexuality (not wanting a "better man" to have been there first), a tendancy to objectify the woman rather than looking for someone with whom he can actually relate, and, quite possibly a LACK of sexual desire that needs the height of physical perfection to jump start the libido. For the woman, unresolved feelings about her father, or an absentee father. That's my armchair analysis anyway. I don't know if anyone else is interested, but I find this stuff fascinating!

There are those who postulate that Barnabas was actually younger in 1795 than we first believed, sometimes as young as in his 20's (given that we learn the PT Barnabas was born in 1770, which would have made him 25 in 1795).  Others figure he was in his 30's, although Mr. Frid himself was in his forties at the time, but never older than his thirties.  

So he was accustomed to being attracted to SYT, because technicaly, he was a YT himself.  Even when Willie busted him out of that coffin, Barnabas STILL was attracted to SYT's because that's what pursued in his 1795 youth.  When you still think of yourself as young (let's say Barnabas "died" and was resurrected as a vampire at the age of 32), man, you want young women.  To Barnabas, Julia seems as old as, well, Countess duPres, and even though he once jested about marrying her if he didn't have Josette, that was merely a joke--he'd never REALLY get involved with Countess duPres (although I suspect Joshua was interested).  

That's my thoughts, for what they're worth.

Love, Robin  

I've always, even when i was 13, thought the older women were more interesting. .they were smarter, had dripping sarcasms and probably a few lovers. . i still don't get it. .i mean I understand the 40ish writers/directors/producers head turn for SYTs but in reality. . wouldn't you rather have a woman who **knew** what to do rather than a girl who probably blushed, giggled and had very few lascivious thoughts?? I don't see Maggie or Vicki having any **adult** themed thoughts. . they were too pure. . so whats with men wanting pure women?? The whole madonna-whore thing escapes me. . .[sconf]  As a woman. . .i might turn my head to a tight-jeaned young stud but i certainly don't want to bother because they DON'T know what to do and usually do it waaaay too fast. . .catch my drift. .why bother.  I much prefer the experienced, thrashed by love guy, who has patience and sensitivity .. oh yeah and a prescription for Viagra. .

I've always, even when i was 13, thought the older women were more interesting. .they were smarter, had dripping sarcasms and probably a few lovers. . i still don't get it. .i mean I understand the 40ish writers/directors/producers head turn for SYTs but in reality. . wouldn't you rather have a woman who **knew** what to do rather than a girl who probably blushed, giggled and had very few lascivious thoughts?? I don't see Maggie or Vicki having any **adult** themed thoughts. . they were too pure. . so whats with men wanting pure women?? The whole madonna-whore thing escapes me. . .[sconf]  As a woman. . .i might turn my head to a tight-jeaned young stud but i certainly don't want to bother because they DON'T know what to do and usually do it waaaay too fast. . .catch my drift. .why bother.  I much prefer the experienced, thrashed by love guy, who has patience and sensitivity .. oh yeah and a prescription for Viagra. .

Well, honestly, I'm with you. Still, I haven't found intelligence to be a real draw with the guys I'VE been around.  How I wish it were! (And yes, I have been around the wrong guys, but where are the other kind?) Maybe it's because many do their thinking with their "little" head and don't want to be outsmarted?

However, for myself only, I found Barney VERY attractive when I was 13. I thought him SO romantic and appealing and wanted him to whisk me away... ..Watching for the 3rd or 4th time as a 47 y.o., I don't find him that attractive.

EXACTLY !!  Loved Barnabas when I was 14.  Found him alluring....mysterious.  Now?  Eh!

Unfortunately for me, when I am out and looking at people, my eye always seems to spot men in their early thirties as hotties. I hardly ever see a guy my own age/older and think "Wow!"

Yes -- same here again.  It's depressing.  Now that I'm pushing 49, all I see is QUENTIN.
(Funny - never paid much attention to him when I was 14).  

-CLC  -  Who just came back from taking my daughter to see Aerosmith.  Hmm....however, I must say, Steven Tyler at 54 isn't bad.  NOT bad at all!!!  (If his pants were any tighter, he'd need to have them PAINTED on.)    LOL

Only problem, my ears are still ringing......

[shadow=red,4,400]<-----  WALK THIS WAAAAAY !![/shadow]

Well, honestly, I'm with you. Still, I haven't found intelligence to be a real draw with the guys I'VE been around.  How I wish it were! (And yes, I have been around the wrong guys, but where are the other kind?) Maybe it's because many do their thinking with their "little" head and don't want to be outsmarted?

Personally, I like a combination of intelligence and a sense of humor. However, good looks and a great physique are icing on the cake!

Since essentially DS was based in the Gothic tradition, it does make sense that there should be young and innocent heroines and dark and brooding, older heroes.  That's what the Gothic (and no, I do not mean of the paperback variety, although it is related to the original) was all about.  The heroine's parents are typically non-existent or dead.  The mother never seems to have been significant; the father is mentioned more.  Young woman from impoverished or persecuted background goes to old dark house where she encounters villainous older/other women (usually) and the Byronic sinister-seeming older man.  The Gothic hero serves as a substitute father figure (with all the Freudian undertones you can pack into that one a given).  Tension, violence, death, supernatural usually a plus.  Gothic hero has possibility of being wounded/maimed/taken down several notches (e.g. Mr. Rochester).  Villainous older woman dies a well-deserved death.  Heroine learns all about the house and the hero's deep, dark secrets.  She grows up.  Gothic hero and heroine marry and here's the important thing:  "Girl gets house" (quoting Abby Adams Westlake).

Okay, so when the show made its debut, Vicki is perfect Gothic material: orphan, mysterious origin, young and sweet and innocent.  Burke served as the Byronic hero.  Laura and to some extent Elizabeth and Carolyn filled in for the older/other woman type thing.  

But it's not really a pure Gothic program and the show morphed into other genres.  Vicki never really loses her innocence.  She never grows up.  More importantly, she stops being a heroine.  Vicki stops being the focus of the show.  The SYT girls that come along never achieve heroine status.  

After Vicki becomes a secondary character, all of the SYTs are, well they're just sort of there.  They're objectified.  They're objects of desire or hatred, but they cease to be the ones actually uncovering mysteries or causing the action.  They become reactive rather than active.

Rachel is an unfortunate attempt on the part of the writers to recapture the Gothic tradition, but the character is written as if she's a nitwit rather than a heroine.  Here's an example that I've used before:

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Gothic heroine:  Vicki comes to Collinwood and immediately encounters what we would now term as one hostile working environment.  Vicki is told to stay out of the basement of Collinwood.  Late at night she hears mysterious sobbing.  Being a nice girl and wanting to help whoever is in trouble, she gets up in the dark night and goes poking around and ends up in the basement.  What does this do?

1. Establishes that Vicki is a caring, adventurous, young woman worthy of our attention and audience identification.

2. Provides a nice supernatural touch.

3. Moves the plot along.

Gothic moron: Rachel arrives at Collinwood to be governess and also immediately encounters the hostile working environment.  She sees some lights in a closed-off portion of the house, inquires and is told emphatically by the owner of the house, "There are no lights.  Don't go to the tower room."  Even though it is none of her business and even though no one appears to be in any danger in the tower room (she just saw some lights), she goes traipsing off to the tower room.  What does this do?

1. Unintentionally establishes that Rachel is a nitwit.   Most of us would not jeopardize our first day on the job with the nasty scary employers by poking around without justification.

2. Moves the plot along.

Vicki is a heroine.  Rachel is window-dressing.  None of the SYTs change except possibly to grow more innocent, and more naive.  They don't grow up.  Forever Peter Pan as it were.

As for Barnabas.  You can argue till the cows come home that he is meant to be a young man, and that's fine, but youth doesn't necessarily equate to innocence or naivete or being drawn in turn to those qualities.  Carolyn is supposed to be younger than Vicki, but she never comes across as a SYT; she's too knowing for that.

Luciaphil

So he was accustomed to being attracted to SYT, because technicaly, he was a YT himself.  Even when Willie busted him out of that coffin, Barnabas STILL was attracted to SYT's because that's what pursued in his 1795 youth.

I understand and appreciate this position, although I never bought the premise that "present day" Barnabas was anything but 40ish and Angelique was 30 at the very least.  It probably isn't that unusual that Barn. should pursue SYT's...most men are attracted to them.  The thing that has always irritated me is that there were just *so* many SYT's that became Barn's "true loves".  By the end of the series...

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he looked like a dirty old man running after Roxanne in that blue nighty, lol.   Ummm....just read this over...Roxie had the blue nighty, not Barn.  ;-)

MrsJ.

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Vicki is a heroine.  Rachel is window-dressing.

And insipid window-dressing at that. Give me pre-governess Maggie or pre-possessed Lady Kitty any day!

Carolyn is supposed to be younger than Vicki, but she never comes across as a SYT; she's too knowing for that.

Exactly, which is one of the reasons I think Carolyn is one of DS' most interesting characters. (Well, at least until we get to Leviathans and she abandons all reason by falling in love with the Cheap, Insufferable Pig! )

Several really good comments here. One thing has been talked about several times but I never quite made the connection. Isn't it interesting that Barney could be 25 (or so) in 1795, but it is always seen as a man in his forties in current time? I mean, he was a vampire, he shouldn't have aged! By my rough calculations, he aged 1 year for every 25 in was in the coffin. Not bad, but in thousand years, it WOULD have caught up with him!

Luciaphil, I have to assume that you have read one of my favorite Austen stories "Northanger Abbey"? The opening line is perfect for your dialogue. "Noone who had ever seen Catharine Morland in her infancy would have supposed her born to be an heroine." It is too long to continue, but points out her unlikeliness by the happiness and normalcy of her childhood and parentage.

The very thought of Carolyn being a SYT is a chuckle. Young, yes, sweet, hardly! Which may explain exactly why I was never a SYT myself. Never having been one makes them seem insipid to me. I suspect that those who peaked in high school or close to it might be those who perpetuate the idolizing of youth??? (Anybody can see how lovely AM or Kate Jackson was on the show, I'm not talking about merely appreciating an attractive age. I mean those who don't find any OTHER age attractive.) Oh, and Lara Parker was only 24 or 25 when she started the show, so I think it was her character that made her seem older. Again, hardly sweet!

Lara Parker was born on Oct 27, 1942. . .
Alexandra Isles on Feb 11, 1945
KLS .. Jan 24, 1945
Kate Jackson .. Oct 28, 1949
Donna Wanderly??? (no IMDB data)

Frid never looked 25 to me. . always closing in on 40. .which makes sense since he was born on Dec 2, 1924. .

and Grayson was the oldest (although she was the only one who **knew** since she shaved 3 years off her DOB, I understand). . Grayson was born on September 18, 1923 . . .YES. .that means there will be notice in a few weeks. . .

source for DOBs: ww.imdb.com

I suspect that those who peaked in high school or close to it might be those who perpetuate the idolizing of youth??? (Anybody can see how lovely AM or Kate Jackson was on the show, I'm not talking about merely appreciating an attractive age. I mean those who don't find any OTHER age attractive.)

Well, I sure don't feel that I'm among the ones who peaked in high school because I thought it pretty much stunk on ice for the most part.  Didn't like it then and have never had a desire to return via reunions (those online reunion pages would have to pay ME to join them ).  In real life I think there are so many more facets to beauty than the ideal look, face, complexion or hair and, on some level, I'm pretty sure I've always realized that-even though it took a lot of years to begin to see the true reality of it.

HOWEVER, if I'm going to bother delving into a wacky fantasy world it's not going to be set in a little ranch house in the burbs and the heroine I live vicariously through sure isn't going to be me at my present age. LOL. The reason I feel that way may be psychologically profound (I do admit that I have always enjoyed escaping reality) or as simple as the fact that it's just fun to imagine the blatantly incredible from time to time.

Lara Parker was born on Oct 27, 1942. . .
source for DOBs: ww.imdb.com

I'm not sure that I believe that year because I seem to recall that both Grayson and Lara had sons the same age and Matt Hall was 9 years old in 1967. Lara would have to have given birth at age 16 to have a 9-year-old then. Certainly not impossible, but not as common back then as it is today. maybe Grayson wasn't the only one who played tricks with her birthdate. Or maybe I'm just an old skeptic.

Bette

Julia99,

 Do you want a job as a reference librarian?