Author Topic: What if? - - - Barnabas and Angelique  (Read 1986 times)

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Offline Josette

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What if? - - - Barnabas and Angelique
« on: December 23, 2008, 08:34:27 AM »
I was intrigued by today's quote from Angelique to Barnabas - "I will be an obedient and devoted wife."

Had Barnabas really accepted her and willingly married her as she wanted, do you think there would have been a chance of her really living up to that quote?
Josette

Offline Lydia

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Re: What if? - - - Barnabas and Angelique
« Reply #1 on: December 23, 2008, 10:04:05 AM »
No.  Not a chance, because Angelique started ruining that marriage first.  Barnabas told her before they were married that he still loved Josette and he didn't think he could ever love anybody else.  Angelique accepted that – or so she said.  As soon as she was married, she displayed irrational jealousy at every turn.  She was jealous about Josette, she was jealous about Vicky, and she would have been jealous about any woman whom Barnabas didn't hate on sight.  Angelique said she would be an obedient and devoted wife, and she probably believed that she would be – but she was not.

Offline Zahir

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Re: What if? - - - Barnabas and Angelique
« Reply #2 on: December 23, 2008, 06:02:08 PM »
I thought the conditions of the "What if" presumed Barnabas opening up to his love of her (Angelique), in which case the situation becomes more complex.  Obedient?  Well--methinks she'd've tried.  Mind you, this whole scenario presumes a degree of self-awareness that neither character would possess for a long, long time.

Read an interesting something-or-other recently about a Hindu belief that at Hate and Fear and Love are emotional siblings, but that each crowds the others out.  There is a point where one feels for another all three, but only one at a time.  Thus when Angelique hated Barnabas, she couldn't actually love or fear him at that moment.  Likewise when she feared him, or loved him.  Ditto Barnabas--that when he feared her (for example, feared her unraveling his life by insisting upon a relationship) he could not love  her.  Likewise, he could not fear her while loving her, nor while hating her at that moment.  It is a tricky idea to get a handle on, especially when you consider this came out of one of the oldest civilizations on Earth.  Helps me to think of it as reading a book, listening to music and watching a movie at the same time.  You can do it.  I can, certainly.  But only one has your full attention at any given moment--and actually, it is about more than one moment.  Consider trying to read one word, then listen to one note, followed by one second of the t.v.  Apart from the fact it would make everything incoherent, we simply couldn't do it.  Rather, we would stray between the three as the ebb and flow of our experience took us, including what catches our attention.

Methinks that is kinda/sorta what the relationship between Barnabas and Angelique was like.  They loved each other--oftimes in a dark, vindictive, guilt-ridden and jealous way.  But that love was often eclipsed by the fears each inspired in the other.  Angelique was terrified of losing Barnabas, of his finding out what she'd done, later of his killing her.  Likewise she hated his cowardice in the face of their love, hated his devotion to Josette, his duplicity, his refusal to even try and forgive.  And at any one time, her love or hatred or fear dominated her heart.

Likewise it worked with Barnabas.  His relationship with her began and ended with love.  But he also feared her, partially methinks because she made him behave in ways of which he did not approve (oh, those New England Puritans), as well as the fact that she was such a strong personality in her own right (oh, those 18th century men).  And of course he hated her for all she'd done.  But it was interesting how at any given moment he only seemed dominated by one of those emotions.  When he feared her, he tiptoed around her and was extremely careful.  When propelled by hatred, he went on total attack, often to a reckless degree.  Yet at the end he waxed poetic, saying she was the only woman he ever loved.

Perhaps the real trick would be to figure out how Angelique and Barnabas might have found a way to love each other at the same time, for more than a few nights in the Carribbean?

Offline Lydia

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Re: What if? - - - Barnabas and Angelique
« Reply #3 on: December 23, 2008, 07:34:14 PM »
Zahir, I really like that Hindu wisdom, and it will affect my thinking - but not about Barnabas and Angelique.  I've got a completely different take on their relationship, which brings the supernatural in.  I've mentioned it elsewhere, I think, but I shall say it again.

(Be warned: we're getting into spoilers.  I don't want to start people throwing in Hidden Stuff galore, so I issue a warning to those who have not watched the last year of the show.)

Angelique was, to a certain degree, under Judah Zachery's power until he took over the body of Gerard Stiles.  It has been suggested elsewhere that Judah lost some power when he took over Gerard's body, and I think that Angelique was one area in which he lost control.  Before this, his evil contaminated her, and she was unable to be a good person.  When Barnabas and Angelique met in Martinique in 1795, Barnabas may have sensed a little bit of the suppressed good in her, but mostly he didn't; mostly he sensed the evil that Judah inflicted on her.

After Judah entered Gerard's body in 1840, Angelique's goodness was able to shine forth, and Barnabas felt that goodness, and thereupon felt a love for her that he was unable to feel before.

Of course, Barnabas didn't understand any of this - either why he couldn't love Angelique in 1795 or why he could in 1840 - and it may be that he was so surprised by what he felt in 1840 that he exaggerated it beyond what it actually was.  I'm not sure about that.  I'm just saying: Angelique was bad in 1795, and incapable of being an obedient and devoted wife, even if something inside her wanted to be.

Offline Josette

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Re: What if? - - - Barnabas and Angelique
« Reply #4 on: December 24, 2008, 07:42:13 AM »
While in part I might have been considering what would have happened if Barnabas had willingly married her at the point when he did, I think I was mostly considering how things would have turned out if he had agreed to marry her when she first arrived, before she had done anything to anyone.  Would she have been capable of being an "obedient and devoted" wife? 

I suspect she would have tried, but over time I can't imagine her behaving like that with anyone.   And, once married to him (and with him apparently loving her and wanting to be married to her), her goal would have been achieved.  I also can't picture her just "living happily ever after" - I'm sure she would have developed some new purpose in life.
Josette

Offline loril54

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Re: What if? - - - Barnabas and Angelique
« Reply #5 on: December 25, 2008, 10:40:10 PM »
I think that Angelique saw Barnabas as a way out of her situation. She wanted to better herself, and why not use sex. Barnabas might have been the first man that was nice to her.  If she had played her cards differently, then she might have come out more successfully.

Just think what she might have gotten as a mistress? She still might have improved her station. Just think of the people she might meet through Barnabas.
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IluvBarnabas

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Re: What if? - - - Barnabas and Angelique
« Reply #6 on: December 25, 2008, 11:30:14 PM »
While I do think that Angelique loved Barnabas, her ways of trying to win his love were downright evil. Think about it...[spoiler] first she tries to choke him to death, then she bewitches his fiancee and uncle to fall in love, then makes his little sister deathly ill that finally does the trick that gets him to marry her. [/spoiler] Angelique's love definitely wasn't a selfless one, it was obsessive, selfish and destructive, and it continues to be throughout the entire show up until midway until 1840.

Now I had nothing against Angelique reforming in 1840, (she did somewhat in 1897), but the fact that [spoiler] she finally lifted the curse from Barnabas and winded up saving Quentin and Desmond from execution doesn't totally absolve her from the deaths she caused back in 1795....Josette, Jeremiah, Sarah, Naomi.

While I could see Barnabas forgiving her before she died, I can't see him forgetting he fact that she was responsible for the deaths of nearly half his family.[/spoiler]



Offline fridfreak

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Re: What if? - - - Barnabas and Angelique
« Reply #7 on: December 28, 2008, 04:22:32 AM »
When was Angelique truly obedient?  Please! How could she? It was in no way in her nature. She was obsessive-compulsive, jealous, hard to get along with, self-serving, and only cared for her own pleasures.  She was also determined to get people out of the way who crossed her path.  The only time i kinda knew she was sort of helpful was [spoiler]during the 1897 storyline when she helped Barnabas with the doppleganger.[/spoiler] Other than that I figure she would not be a loving and devoted wife.  Who could live with that kinda stress?  Barnabas Collins?  No way.   And if he for any reason looked at another woman?  God help him!
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Offline Gothick

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Re: What if? - - - Barnabas and Angelique
« Reply #8 on: December 30, 2008, 02:10:53 AM »
Angelique was a very, very high-maintenance individual.  (So without a doubt, was Barnabas Collins--let's be real here.)  I don't see Ang's statement in that quote as anything other than yet another piece of strategy on the part of "Our Favorite Witch." 

I realize that this is not really playing the game, but one does have to understand that if Barn and Ang had remained happily ever after, there would have been no curse, no story, and no reason to sit here pondering the ins and outs of just another humdrum successful marriage.

I enjoyed how Lara played Angelique's jealousy during the post-wedding episodes of 1795.  She really lit up the screen with raw, fiery emotion.

G.

Offline michael c

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Re: What if? - - - Barnabas and Angelique
« Reply #9 on: December 30, 2008, 04:51:05 AM »
indeed.

barnabas and angelique were both nothing if not slaves to self-created drama.

in that they were a perfect match. [santa_rolleyes]
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Offline Philippe Cordier

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Re: What if? - - - Barnabas and Angelique
« Reply #10 on: December 31, 2008, 10:12:14 PM »
I don't know why, but I felt sympathy for Angelique when she seemed to reform in 1840, allowing Barnabas to forgive her and even declare his love for her. It was as though I willfully forgot the evil and malice she had perpetrated on Barnabas and the Collins family.  I guess Barnabas forgot too.

But the first response above, by Lydia, as well as others' comments, hits the nail on the head in describing the essence of Angelique. Her nature was too self-centered for her to ever have put aside for long her jealousies where Barnabas was concerned.

I was interested in the comments about the effect that Judah Zacharchy's possession of Gerard might have had on Angelique's reformation. The 1840 storyline has arguably been my favorite storyline, and this was an aspect I haven't heard suggested before. In the past I have spoken of the arc of Dark Shadows showing the possibility of redemption with the events of 1840. I'm not sure I agree with the proposed interpretation of Judah Zachary's role since I see Angelique as responsible for her own redemption through greater insight and growth. But it's food for thought.

Fridfreak brings up the other time when Angelique was helpful to Barnabas, when she created his doppelganger in 1897. In a way, that was more convincing than her redemption in 1840, because in 1897 she's never wholly good or without mixed motives.  We're uneasy with her because we can't trust her even when we're greatful for helping Barnabas. What were her motives then? Could they have been somewhat for her own amusement and a chance to show off her powers and control?

I agree with IluvBarnabas that I can understand Barnabas forgiving Angelique before she died, yet how could he forget her hand in the destruction of his own family? I think the answer is that he forgot and forgave and felt a glimmer of a former feeling of love at that moment. It's hard to hold anything against someone who is breathing their last. But had Angelique lived, both would have fallen back to their former positions; perhaps at best they would have maintained an uneasy truce.

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Offline Sunny_Collins

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Re: What if? - - - Barnabas and Angelique
« Reply #11 on: August 18, 2009, 04:48:01 PM »
Angelique enjoyed being in control of situations and people, and being an obedient wife wouldn't exactly give her the control she needed to remain her confident self. The first time barnabas told her to stay home for one reason or another, she might try to obey, but after a few such attempts of him telling her what to do, she would eventually rebel against him, and I think would grow to resent him. It wasn't in her nature to simply surrender her will to another.
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