Author Topic: Discuss: '91 Series - Pilot - Part 2  (Read 7094 times)

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Offline Lydia

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Re: Discuss: '91 Series - Pilot - Part 2
« Reply #15 on: September 20, 2008, 10:01:10 PM »
The portrait of Josette like the portrait of Barnabas, looks very much out of the time it was supposed to have been painted.  She looks too free and voluptuous and frankly a bit wanton, beyond which I think even the French of the time would venture.
I was surprised when Barnabas said that Barnabas and Josette had become paramours.  I had always thought that paramours slept together.  I checked in online dictionaries and it looks as though "paramour" doesn't indubitably mean the people are sleeping together, but the implication is so clear that it would be misleading to apply the word to people who are not sleeping together.

Offline Taeylor Collins

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Re: Discuss: '91 Series - Pilot - Part 2
« Reply #16 on: September 20, 2008, 10:54:37 PM »
Thanks GODDESS Lydia!  When I was screening the episode I meant to look the word up.  I remember in my youth thinking it meant "friends" and I never really thought about it anymore.  I actually had planned on looking it up.  THANKS!!
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Re: Discuss: '91 Series - Pilot - Part 2
« Reply #17 on: September 20, 2008, 11:45:27 PM »
So I held back on commenting last week because I wanted to reflect on the pilot as a whole. First I'd like to address the whole Josette's portrait issue. As someone else suggested, one would think Josette had another portrait done and Liz had seen it. And this is getting a bit ahead, but look closely at Josette's portrait now. For some reason in the later eps, the portrait changes...unless you want to consider the possibility that there are two portraits that at one time hung in that room.

So I'm quoting myself because I really want to get an opinion about this. I know I'm not crazy and there are two different portraits used!

Offline Midnite

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Re: Discuss: '91 Series - Pilot - Part 2
« Reply #18 on: September 21, 2008, 12:38:46 AM »
Is there a way to quote two posts at a time??

Yes.  With your response window open, use the Insert Quote button next to the post below that you want to additionally quote.  It will insert the entire text of the quote into your post where you can then remove the parts you are not responding to.  Hope that helped.

Quote
Is DS Resurrected the gospel?  After all it is a Pom Press book.

I got Carolyn's age from its Episode Guide.  I don't know who wrote it, but a mistake in it was already noted in the Part 1 discussion.  So I'd say no.

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Midnite I am so glad you share my love for Barbara Steele! GODDESS INDEED!

She showed up at several local DS events before I finally was able to speak to her and have her autograph a photo at the Halloween Vista thing.  I tell you, it was a THRILL.  :D

BTW, I think the bar was called the Three Gables Roadhouse.  It was actually a restaurant & club in Malibu that's now been replaced by a shopping center.  :(

Offline Taeylor Collins

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Re: Discuss: '91 Series - Pilot - Part 2
« Reply #19 on: September 21, 2008, 01:03:06 AM »
OFF TOPIC:  Hey Midnite.  If I come with a lot of cash will you tour me around Southern California when I visit!???  We would have a good ole time talking BS and DS! [ghost_wink] 

Below!  My two favorite woman...so far!!
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Offline Midnite

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Re: Discuss: '91 Series - Pilot - Part 2
« Reply #20 on: September 21, 2008, 01:19:32 AM »
Hee hee, we'd have a blast!

Offline arashi

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Re: Discuss: '91 Series - Pilot - Part 2
« Reply #21 on: September 21, 2008, 04:23:22 AM »
Running commentary as the episode plays:

Carolyn is supposed to be 18?!?!?!  [ghost_rolleyes] I would have pegged her as 25 at least. I always found not only the fact that Carolyn named her horse after herself, but the fact that she suggest Victoria ride her, a little disconcerting at least. It's not the implied attraction on Carolyn's part, it's the predatory way she carries the conversation.

David definitely would have gotten me with that spider - there would have been much screaming, dancing away and flailing of arms. We definitely don't get tarantulas in Maine, but we do get a couple of really horrible species of the suckers. My first thought upon seeing that spider was Holy Shit! I am TOTALLY staying away from any wood piles, and I'd totally be stripping the covers off my bed every night before I got in it.

I really feel for Willie. He seems genuinely terrified! For once he seems truly relieved to see Barnabas! I like Jim Fyfe. I think he does a good job as Willie. He's obviously got a good heart under his exterior, as he's terrified of what he unleashed upon himself and those in the area. I guess he could be feeling scared more so what will happen to him if something happens to Barnabas, than what Barnabas is doing to others - you could read both emotions into it.

For a house that was never outfitted with electricity, those were some really interesting panels on the stairwell wall there as they scanned over to Barnabas' coffin, and I can't believe he's got it up on a pedestal like it's on display! There has to be somewhere in the house less conspicuous than right near the door at the foot of the basement stairs.

There are some fine examples of white dancing going on at the Blue Whale. I always loved the "Right before they hit on me." exchange - but wouldn't someone telling her she was pretty count as being hit on? You'd think too that Barnabas would at least take the girl somewhere less populated before eating her in the parking lot of a crowded bar. Too many potential witnesses.

I have to agree with everyone who echoed the positive sentiments about the authorities being open to the idea of not only a looney who thinks he's a vampire, but an actual vampire. It poses much more of a threat to Barnabas' existence, saves the audience from aggravation, and moves the plot along nicely.

I always liked the unveiling of Josette's room, though I have to wonder, did they unboard the door and find the candles still lit?  [ghost_wink] From a quick google search on 18th century portraits it appears Josette's portrait is pretty accurate, save the hair style.

Who the hell are all these random people on the beach when they're dragging the bodies out of the water? I know a lot of people in Maine have a police scanner - but they only show up if you've hit a deer. LOL!

What? No finding the center of the light?

I totally didn't get the Isaac reference until someone else here pointed it out.

Here's something that has always bothered me, and it may come up later but I forget now, why is Barnabas' portrait so prominently displayed at Collinwood? He never lived there himself, he didn't build it or pay for it's construction, don't you think Joshua's portrait would be the largest one to grace the grand stairs of the home?

Victoria seems absolutely enthralled by Barnabas, but at the same time, slightly scared of him as well. I don't know if she's startled more by his passion or her own.

I wonder where the trend of having vampires bare their fangs in that manner before they bit someone started. It doesn't look scary, it looks goofy as hell. I don't recall any of the vampires in the Universal pictures doing it, so it must have started later?

I loooooooooove the way they handled Sarah's ghost on this series, and silently weep that they never continued to any of the other main ghost stories.

Second half better than the first - and it only gets better from here!

Offline Midnite

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Re: Discuss: '91 Series - Pilot - Part 2
« Reply #22 on: September 21, 2008, 05:36:28 AM »
I wish so much that I could find  the article or interview I read with Barbara Blackburn.  She played Carolyn almost in bisexual way she said.  Can anyone back this up??

Taeylor,

A friend recalls either BB saying that she played Carolyn as though she were trying to seduce Victoria, or JG making the comment with BB present, but he said it was in a filmed interview.

Offline Cousin_Barnabas

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Re: Discuss: '91 Series - Pilot - Part 2
« Reply #23 on: September 21, 2008, 08:20:07 AM »
I wonder where the trend of having vampires bare their fangs in that manner before they bit someone started. It doesn't look scary, it looks goofy as hell. I don't recall any of the vampires in the Universal pictures doing it, so it must have started later?

They didn't even have fangs in the Universal films.  [ghost_wink]  But, if they did, they certainly wouldn't be allowed to flash them like that.  It would be against code.  [ghost_tongue2]  Bela Lugosi died before Dracula showed his fangs off to the American movie-going public. 

That tradition really caught on with Christopher Lee in the Hammer films.

Offline Nelson Collins

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Re: Discuss: '91 Series - Pilot - Part 2
« Reply #24 on: September 22, 2008, 03:51:40 AM »
So I'm quoting myself because I really want to get an opinion about this. I know I'm not crazy and there are two different portraits used!
I know I am jumping ahead.  You are not crazy.  It's never remarked upon in the series.  I think it's just chalked up to a period of time between the filming of the pilot and the green lighting of a season and when the production team started to ramp up either the original prop had gone missing or it was decided  that a head and shoulders portrait of Josette (with an obviously much larger face for the tv audience to see more clearly that Vicki is an almost exact double of Josette) would be more appropriate.  I expect we will rehash this the next time Josette's portrait is seen....  [ghost_grin]
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Offline Taeylor Collins

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Re: Discuss: '91 Series - Pilot - Part 2
« Reply #25 on: September 22, 2008, 09:24:06 AM »
Taeylor,

A friend recalls either BB saying that she played Carolyn as though she were trying to seduce Victoria, or JG making the comment with BB present, but he said it was in a filmed interview.

THANK YOU THANK YOU Midnite!  I didn't want to spread false information however I was 99% sure I had read an interview or watched one. And when I heard this it made total sense.  I didn't pick up on it when I was a teen but watching it as an adult I did!  I appreciate you backing this up.  Now that I know it's filmed I am gonna have go digging through some old videos!  [ghost_wink]
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Offline Nelson Collins

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Re: Discuss: '91 Series - Pilot - Part 2
« Reply #26 on: September 22, 2008, 06:38:48 PM »
Okay, my first post was based on notes I made as I was watching the episode, then I to skedaddle off to the country to see my bf for the weekend.

Here are some additional thoughts…

While it stands well enough on it’s own as a piece of late 80s horror, it doesn’t fare nearly as well IMO as a decent prime time soap.  It seems that is what the show was trying to do (be a prime time soap) and in that respect, it fell down in a few important areas for me.

Victoria:  We are treated to an intriguing voiceover from Victoria Winters telling us she “hopes to unlock the secrets of her past.”  Unfortunately, that tantalizing comment is never built upon.  There is a throwaway line from Roger about why a 25yo girl from New York would want to come to Collinsport, but otherwise it’s totally ignored.  I have no problem at all with Carolyn being attracted to Vicki, but I think those scenes would have been put to much better use learning more of Vicki’s story.  Why IS she there?  Where is her family?  Was she raised in an orphanage?  Did she leave friends or a boyfriend in New York?  Sadly, she is there simply because the script says she must be there.  A wasted opportunity.

David:  He is a little monster, apparently carrying out an 80s slasher movie version of “The Sound of Music”.  He’s troubled and his family wants little to do with him for all of Elizabeth’s protests.  David has no scene with any of his family save the one where Barnabas shows up.  The rest of the time he spends with Vicki, which makes me sympathize a little more with David at the expense of the rest of his blood kin.  I noted that by the end of the pilot he seems to have softened quite a bit toward Vicki and no wonder:  No one else seems to want to have anything do with him.  No wonder he’s troubled.  And if one goes by the broadcast version of the pilot, we don’t get even a hint of any backstory to suggest why this is the case.

Elizabeth:  I like Jean Simmons, but Elizabeth is just words on a page to me right now.  She’s given so little to do.  There is just nothing to her.  When Mrs. Johnson laments that she doesn’t know what to do with Willie, Liz just puts her head in her hands.  Argh!  She looked very weak in that one scene and I lost a bit of respect for her.  The head of the family ought to be made of sterner stuff than that (I guess she is the head of the family.  She seems to be the oldest, but there is no dialogue at all in either version to indicate that definitely).  She looks dowdy most of the time, and that one outfit she wore – the black jumpsuit with white dickey and cuffs???  Hideous.  (Oh, and Taeylor, no worries, I didn’t think you were picking on my post in particular, but while I think that Liz might know who most of the town folk are, I am still surprised that everyone she meets in the episode knows her well enough to call her “Elizabeth.” :) )

Roger:  Fares better in the VHS version that the DVD/broadcast version, though, like David, without the extra scene, there is no backstory to even hint how he came to be so cold toward his son.

Carolyn:  Carolyn is apparently a photographer whose career, according to her dialogue, was just taking off in New York when her mother called her home.  I would have expected two New York girls who happen meet in a small town would have talked more about, well, New York.  Again, Carolyn’s and Vicki’s scenes together would have been a perfect opportunity for comparing notes on where they both lived and quizzing Vicki on why she came and building on the mysterious promise of Vicki’s voiceover.  And while, yes, there is a sexual innuendo to her dialogue with Vicki, she seems have the same performance toward her mother, the dude in the dance hall, etc.  This is another reason why she confuses me and puts me off, the signals are very very mixed.

Daphne:  Vampire bait written all over her.  And that is about the extent of her character.  She is the exact kind of character archetype that Joss Whedon would turn on its ear in creating Buffy the Vampire Slayer.

The Collins Family and Collinwood in General:  Unlike the oil empires that are clearly established from the get go on Dallas and Dynasty (the main nighttime soaps I watched at the time), we learn nothing about the Collinses except that they are rich and apparently the big noise in the town that also bears their name.  How did they make their wealth and what keeps them rolling in dough now?  We are never told.  Also, they have a vast estate, but we see no staff but Mrs. Johnson and Willie (and before episode’s end, Willie leaves the main Collins family’s employ to work for Barnabas).  If there is any mystery about why this is so, it’s not mentioned.  If there are parts of the house closed off, that’s not even hinted at.  So we have a huge house and estate and it’s kept in immaculate shape by one old woman and her useless nephew.  Apparently, in New England, large estates with grounds and stables filled with horses take care of themselves.

Mrs. Johnson and Willie:  To paraphrase Mrs. J - all I can say is Mrs. Johnson must be a wonderful woman to take in her brother’s? sister’s? boy and try to get him to turn his life around by getting him work on the Collins estate.  I admire her for that.  Willie, fares better than many of the characters (it seems that the characters that have the most to do with Barnabas get better written that the rest).  As little time as they are seen to spend together, Barn and Willie in a way seem to have a much more intimate relationship than Barn has with anyone else, even Victoria.  I suppose the blood is one reason.  He is Barnabas’ protector during the day and Barnabas must rely on confide things to Willie that he never could to anyone else.  Having said that, he is cartoonish in the extreme:  nasty teeth, greasy, slovenly, a drunkard.  I’ll reiterate from my previous post that Fyfe and Going have a good presence together that made me yearn for a scene in the pick up where they can first connect especially when he meets her in the stable later.  He’s a good actor and does his scenes well: dumb, smarmy, belligerent, and later scared (of being blamed for the attack on Daphne) even terrified of Barnabas, but as Carolyn describes him, harmless.  However, we still have little to indicate how Willie got this way, though I suppose there is enough dialogue to suggest that Liz was doing Mrs. Johnson a favor allowing him to come work there (Who took care of the estate before he showed up???) and that she is either the only family he has left or the only family that will have anything to do with him.  He does seem to have enough affection for his aunt that he seems willing to share his riches with her.  But when she scoffs, he gives his you’ll see when I blow this dump on top of a pile of dough speech.

Last, but not least, Barnabas:  He is obviously, the star of the show and the entire episode, and it seems, the series, is written for him and about him.  Most of the episode leading up to his appearance at Collinwood was just marking time waiting for him to appear.  He’s the center of attention, not only the effing big portrait seen on the first landing of the big staircase, but also on his first visit to Collinwood,  everyone is seated and looking up at him standing in front of the fireplace.

Ben Cross is attractive and generally a good actor, but I sense he was uncomfortable with the way he was directed sometimes.  I expect Barnabas to be courtly, somewhat old fashioned, and polite and charming and he was in the main, but there were times when he sound positively disingenuous (“That is good news” sounds particularly phony) and it makes me think that Cross was told say it that way against his better instincts.  From previous posts and threads, I now know that DC had more to do with the scenery chewing hissing and snarling and gnashing of his teeth, so I don’t blame him for that, nor do I blame him for the way over the top end to the pilot mentioned in my earlier post.  In retrospect, however, those bits do a lot to diminish my respect for the character, and ups the cheese factor of the show.

In my opinion, Barnabas is the focus to the detriment of the rest of the cast and the show itself.  He is billed as its star, but as he is a vampire, his interest in Victoria cannot come to any kind of good end and anyone who is familiar with the standard issue horror clichés knows that the vampire story must eventually come to an end, and a pointy wooden end at that.  An ongoing series cannot keep this story going for long before it becomes repetitive, especially as we have already on a ten scale started off the story close to nine on the gore and gnashing teeth.  There is not much further to go here.

For a pilot for an ongoing series, I feel too little time has been spent so far on developing anyone else's characters and establishing B and/or C storylines to carry the show forward when the vampire story is done, which it must be.  I am wondering if there will be anyone else I am intrigued enough about to want to keep watching.  I am trying to take a never having seen the series approach and hoping that future episodes will round out characters and provide more interesting and varied storylines, but based solely on the pilot, everything is so sharply focused on the vampire love story in general and Barnabas in particular, I don’t hold out much hope that the series can go anywhere after this story is done.

(edited by admin)
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Offline Midnite

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Re: Discuss: '91 Series - Pilot - Part 2
« Reply #27 on: September 22, 2008, 07:36:13 PM »
THANK YOU THANK YOU Midnite!  I didn't want to spread false information however I was 99% sure I had read an interview or watched one. And when I heard this it made total sense.  I didn't pick up on it when I was a teen but watching it as an adult I did!  I appreciate you backing this up.  Now that I know it's filmed I am gonna have go digging through some old videos!  [ghost_wink]

You're welcome, Taeylor.  If it helps, the DS fan who remembers seeing it also recalled that it was made available after the show was canceled, and that either Going or Blackburn refers specifically to the pilot scene in Vicki's bedroom (where Carolyn howls), and says that it was Blackburn's decision to play it as a seduction, which ultimately led to the scene being cut due to its lesbian undertones.  Then the two actresses get silly at pretending to be lovers.  I hope that helps someone here recall the interview!

Some great comments again, Nelson.  A mention is made in Part 1, btw, to most of the rooms being closed off.  And when Roger arrives to find Willie at the stables, he gives his horse over to a stable employee.  I don't mind having to imagine the groundskeeping crew with their leaf blowers, cuz god how I hate leaf blowers.

Elizabeth (I lol everytime the Sheriff drawls, "E-liz-a-beth") does seem to have an important role-- opening the door to visitors, except at dinnertime.  [ghost_tongue2]

For all practical purposes of this watching project, this IS the original series.

Offline Gerard

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Re: Discuss: '91 Series - Pilot - Part 2
« Reply #28 on: September 22, 2008, 10:18:30 PM »
I also found it a bit irksome that no mention is made as to why the Collins family is so wealthy.  What, exactly, do they own and do to get all that moola?  Is it the fishing industry?  Boat building?  Got in on the ground floor on Microsoft stock?

Gerard

Offline Zahir

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Re: Discuss: '91 Series - Pilot - Part 2
« Reply #29 on: September 22, 2008, 11:48:36 PM »
I frankly admit to loving back story, and wish there were frankly more of it.  One is the whole question of where the Collins family get their money.  Perhaps the simplest would be that they essentially own most of the town.  That alone could have been the basis for a very nice income, coupled with some good investments.  And it might easily make Collinsport pretty much a feudal domain in some respects.

But then, I find myself intensely curious about Roger and Elizabeth's parents.

And yeah, where are all the many servants needed to keep up an estate that size?