Converted Characters!

I might question this one, VAM.  Gerard Stiles wasn't exactly what you'd call a "good" or "nice" man even before he became possessed by Judah Zachary. Remember, he also used an alias and was involved in pirating!  The "Nancy Barrett" character in that storyline charitably referred to him as a "hustler" or some such (I know that wasn't the term used, but something like that) but claimed he wasn't evil.  Even that characterization of him is somewhat questionable, though, IMO.



And even that a good, pure, innocent character, Rachel Drummond, remained true to her character (a very Dickensian character, much criticized on this forum, but that's another story ... though I'll just mention that I think it was KLS's most successful character other than Maggie).

Vlad,

With regards to Gerard, he did befriend Quentin and the Collins family in the beginning. Correct?

However, I do agree with you about the TLATKLS's Rachel Drummond. The criticism of the character may be due to a lack of understanding on the part of the individual(s).

And even that a good, pure, innocent character, Rachel Drummond, remained true to her character (a very Dickensian character, much criticized on this forum, but that's another story ... though I'll just mention that I think it was KLS's most successful character other than Maggie).

I'm curious, Vlad.  Could you elaborate on why you think she was a successful character?

I'm one of the critics--I always thought she was really very thinly drawn on the part of the writers.  

Luciaphil

With regards to Gerard, he did befriend Quentin and the Collins family in the beginning. Correct?

S

P

O

I

L

E

R

S

I think Gerard's motives were always questionable.  His relationship with Samantha seemed to be more about the wealth he would achieve and less about any real feeling for her--that and the desire to have what Quentin had.  

I would say he had more in common with Judah Zachary than not.

As for other character transformations, I dunno.  Some of them like Cyrus/John Y--well, the "qualities" of John Y were probably quite present in Cyrus (who couldn't be a more stereotypical serial killer type if he tried) all along.  

Others mellowed out (Roger, David, Burke) and others well, the demands of the plot "changed them".

Luciaphil

Vlad,

With regards to Gerard, he did befriend Quentin and the Collins family in the beginning. Correct?

Under rather suspect circumstances, yes.  It appeared from the beginning that he had his eye on Samantha the moment he arrived at Collinwood.  And the circumstances surrounding the supposed deaths at sea of Quentin and his son (sorry, I can't remember all these names the way others on this board do!) were also suspect.

As I said, the best that was said about him was that he was a 'hustler," (I know that isn't the term, but I can't think of it offhand) -- and that was by a good friend and associate (whose name I can't remember name offhand either -- the Nancy Barrett character).

The fact that he was involved in illegal shipping activities -- pirating -- under a different name (Captain someone) tells you something about his character.

However, I do agree with you about the TLATKLS's Rachel Drummond. The criticism of the character may be due to a lack of understanding on the part of the individual(s).

Yes, Rachel Drummond was a classically Victorian character, basically an example of the Victorian ideal woman -- chaste, pure, innocent, naive.  KLS's performance was exactly on target.


Luciaphil asked:

I'm curious, Vlad.  Could you elaborate on why you think she was a successful character?

I'm one of the critics--I always thought she was really very thinly drawn on the part of the writers.  

In the context of my comments, I meant that this was one character who remained true to type -- i.e., Rachel Drummond did not have a ridiculous turnaround as a Handmaiden of Count Petofi.

I also said (or meant) that I thought this was one of KLS's best performances, aside from Maggie. Much better than her Josette du Pres -- she had much more of a period feel for this character, e.g. her posture and manner; and IMO her acting presented the character perfectly, without some of the infelicities that cropped up in her later performance as Lady Hampshire.

I grant that Rachel Drummond may not be as complex a character as the other two (i.e., Josette and Kitty), so maybe the simplicity of the character ("innocence") was easier for her to play, I don't know.  But I found her more believable in the role and well-suited to the period.

-Vlad

Under rather suspect circumstances, yes.  It appeared from the beginning that he had his eye on Samantha the moment he arrived at Collinwood.  And the circumstances surrounding the supposed deaths at sea of Quentin and his son (sorry, I can't remember all these names the way others on this board do!) were also suspect.

As I said, the best that was said about him was that he was a 'hustler," (I know that isn't the term, but I can't think of it offhand) -- and that was by a good friend and associate (whose name I can't remember name offhand either -- the Nancy Barrett character).

The fact that he was involved in illegal shipping activities -- pirating -- under a different name (Captain someone) tells you something about his character.




-Vlad

Yes, I see your point. He went from somewhat shady to outright evil.  Also, we should remember there was repentance in the end ...So I am not sure how Gerard would be classified...

My vote for one of the most dramatically changed (and least believably changed) characters is the servant Beth in 1897.  Her switch from sympathetic, caring maid to handmaiden of the dastardly Count Petofi was hard to swallow.  I suspect it had less to do with her intrinsic character and more to do with the decision to extend the 1987 storyline (too much so, IMO).



Great topic, Cassandra!  I, too, am glad that some of the characters changed for the better (such as Mrs. Johnson and Carolyn), as you mention.

SPOILER........SPOILER........SPOILER.......SPOILER.........
S
P
O
I
L
E
R

S
P
O
I
L
E
R

Thanks Vlad! Glad you enjoyed it! Although I do feel I have to disagree alittle when it comes to your comment concerning Beth. Yes, she did seem to change somewhat, but I really didn't see this as her being true to herself. I honestly felt that the only real reason she was with Count Petofi was because she was on the "rebound" from Quentin. You could see she was only acting out of pain & sorrow for what he did to her. She just didn't seem "truly evil" to me. And in the end, she reverted back to her old self when she saw what Petofi was doing to Quentin.

I know this sounds a little strange because she began and ended as a witch, but I honestly think Angelique has a kind of personal metamorphosis not long after arriving at Collinwood.  No doubt some of her traits were just dormant due to her love for him and would have eventually come out in their relationship anyway.  Still, she did seem like a much different witch when she thought she could convince Barnabas that he really loved her and not Josette.  Once she knew she couldn't she set the flame on high and didn't back down.

Yes, I see your point. He went from somewhat shady to outright evil.  Also, we should remember there was repentance in the end ...So I am not sure how Gerard would be classified...

In a way Gerard Styles is a very tragic character:  as you say, he starts out as Quentin's friend, then becomes a shady opportunist, and "regresses" to someone truly evil but only while possessed by Judah Zachary.  In the end he finds redemption of sorts, but only as he dies, asking Quentin's forgiveness.  You almost feel sorry for the guy.  Unlike Lt. Forbes, who goes from dashing man about town to unrepentant snake in the grass, Gerard therefore seems to me a far more sympathetic and complex character.  

Maybe you can classify Gerard as an instance of a character that changes more than once - four times, to be precise, if you assume that he started out as being Quentin's good friend.    

Can anyone else think of other characters who suffered through a personality change more than once?  Right now, all I can think of are Barnabas and Cyrus Longworth.  Oh, and Carolyn, too, just recently.  

In a way Gerard Styles is a very tragic character:  as you say, he starts out as Quentin's friend, then becomes a shady opportunist, and "regresses" to someone truly evil but only while possessed by Judah Zachary.  

.  .  .

Maybe you can classify Gerard as an instance of a character that changes more than once - four times, to be precise, if you assume that he started out as being Quentin's good friend.    

I think it's questionable whether Gerard Stiles was ever really "Quentin's good friend."

The Nancy Barrett character who knew him from way back said that the Gerard she knew was "an opportunist," but not a murderer (or whatever).  (Your use of "opportunist" was the exact word Nancy Barrett used to describe him, Happybat   .)  However, even she may not have known about his other identity as Capt. Ivan Millar, a pirate, long before he met Quentin.  I would tend to suspect the motives of such a ruthless and unprincipled character as that, especially when he's befriending someone from as prominent and wealthy a family as Quentin Collins!

-Vlad

Under rather suspect circumstances, yes.  It appeared from the beginning that he had his eye on Samantha the moment he arrived at Collinwood.  And the circumstances surrounding the supposed deaths at sea of Quentin and his son (sorry, I can't remember all these names the way others on this board do!) were also suspect.

As I said, the best that was said about him was that he was a 'hustler," (I know that isn't the term, but I can't think of it offhand) -- and that was by a good friend and associate (whose name I can't remember name offhand either -- the Nancy Barrett character).

The fact that he was involved in illegal shipping activities -- pirating -- under a different name (Captain someone) tells you something about his character.


Yes, Rachel Drummond was a classically Victorian character, basically an example of the Victorian ideal woman -- chaste, pure, innocent, naive.  KLS's performance was exactly on target.


Luciaphil asked:

In the context of my comments, I meant that this was one character who remained true to type -- i.e., Rachel Drummond did not have a ridiculous turnaround as a Handmaiden of Count Petofi.

I also said (or meant) that I thought this was one of KLS's best performances, aside from Maggie. Much better than her Josette du Pres -- she had much more of a period feel for this character, e.g. her posture and manner; and IMO her acting presented the character perfectly, without some of the infelicities that cropped up in her later performance as Lady Hampshire.

I grant that Rachel Drummond may not be as complex a character as the other two (i.e., Josette and Kitty), so maybe the simplicity of the character ("innocence") was easier for her to play, I don't know.  But I found her more believable in the role and well-suited to the period.

-Vlad

I'm with you on Rachel Vlad she was true to the period
and i see her as more likable than the other woman of 1897 such as Amanda,Jenny Charity and a few others  I felt sadwhen she died and was moved byTim's reaction
to her death.

jennifer

I think it's questionable whether Gerard Stiles was ever really "Quentin's good friend."

However, even she may not have known about his other identity as Capt. Ivan Millar, a pirate, long before he met Quentin.  I would tend to suspect the motives of such a ruthless and unprincipled character as that, especially when he's befriending someone from as prominent and wealthy a family as Quentin Collins!

-Vlad

You're probably right, Vlad.  To tell you the truth, I don't recall Gerard's other life as a pirate - hardly someone you could call anyone's "good friend"!  So, unless Gerard had started his adult life as an essentially good person who was corrupted, if you will, perhaps he really just went from bad to horrible.  I am also reminded now of how evil his ghost seemed - of course, so did Quentin's!

I like your avatar's caption, Happybat!

Nƒ¤kemiin!