DARK SHADOWS FORUMS
General Discussions => Current Talk Archive => Current Talk '24 I => Current Talk '09 II => Topic started by: Gothick on August 19, 2009, 11:58:56 PM
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Not that I'm into lists or top tens, but out of idle curiosity, what were the top three "all time best" scenes chosen in Jonathan Frid's "Game"?
I view this sort of thing as completely subjective, and my own list would change depending upon what I had been watching lately. Having Mrs J hand an open-mouthed Maggie Evans a ten cent tip because "you're a nice girl" would definitely be on my top ten list, for example...
G.
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I view this sort of thing as completely subjective
Well, that fact that no scenes between Barnabas and any of KLS' "Josette" personas - particularly the lady herself - makes the final result very questionable. [ghost_huh] But it would still be nice to know what the scenes were - particularly when apparently there were several Barnabas/Julia scenes.
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Thanks.
I also have to question the final results. I believe the scene where Julia confronts Barnabas with the line "I know what you are" was chosen number one? My mind is shot already. lol The scene with Angelique placing the curse on Barnabas came in the top 5 I believe.
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True, and I was one of the first to vote. I am not a Barn-Julia fan at all, so none of those were in my top 5. There are SO many more deserving scenes, but yes, the B-J fans turned up in force for the vote. There should have been so many more votes than there were.
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I think a big part of the reason the vote went the way it did is because of it being J.F.'s site. If the voting were held here or on the fest site the numbers may have been very different.
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Well, that fact that no scenes between Barnabas and any of KLS' "Josette" personas - particularly the lady herself - makes the final result very questionable.
Actually, it suddenly hit me that perhaps I really shouldn't have been surprised by the results. Why? Well, back in '98 AOL's now defunct DS Online held a sort of Emmy/Oscars type of ceremony with categories specific to DS (not just awards for favorite actor, actress, supporting and the like, but also for things like favorite severed body part, frightening moment and monster [ghost_cool]). Voting was not just open to AOL members but to all DS fans who were then currently online, and the response was overwhelming with hundreds of fans having responded. The interesting thing as it pertains to this discussion is that favorite actress turned out to be a tie between Grayson Hall and Lara Parker - the third nominee, KLS, was a very distant third when the results were tabulated. And now when it comes to the results of Frid's "game," the results are very much the same, with KLS not making any sort of showing at all in the results. Apparently not much seems to have changed in over ten years - it would certainly appear that Grayson Hall and Lara Parker had, have, and perhaps always will have huge fan contingents online. Not that that's in any way a bad thing. [ghost_wink] It's simply an interesting circumstance in online fandom...
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I also have to question the final results. I believe the scene where Julia confronts Barnabas with the line "I know what you are" was chosen number one? My mind is shot already. lol The scene with Angelique placing the curse on Barnabas came in the top 5 I believe.
The top three scenes all favored Grayson Hall more than Frid. The confrontation was voted Number 1, which shocked me because it must have been all of 45 seconds long. Second place was the scene when Willie goads Barnabas into admitting that he cares more deeply for Julia than he'd like to admit after she's disappeared to meet Tom Jennings. Third place was the scene from 1995 [spoiler]where Julia admits that she is under Gerard's spell and begs Barnabas to return to 1970 alone. He refuses, vowing, "Never without you!"[/spoiler]
A majority of the scenes were from Barnabas's first year on the show. Not only did none of the clips feature KLS, but there were no scenes of Barnabas with Quentin either, which I found to be surprising since he's one of the "main" characters on the show.
Frid played each clip in chronological order and ended by replaying them in a countdown format from 10 to 1 to show us where each scene had placed with the voters. We saw Barnabas's first meeting with David at the Old House and heard him address the portrait of Josette. We watched Barnabas recount to Vicki and Carolyn the story of Josette's death on a stormy night (knowing what an iconic scene this is considered to be here on the board, I was sure it would be named Number 1 or 2; instead I think it made the list at 5 or 6). As mentioned, we saw the scene where Barnabas shoots Angelique and is cursed, as well as Barnabas's final scene with Angelique in 1840. The scene where Julia returns to Collinwood after getting her hair cut and Barnabas pleads with her to help him find out what Vicki remembers from 1795 also placed on the list, though I don't recall exactly where. The countdown recap also included the "duel" discussion between Barnabas and Anthony George's Burke Devlin; however, this scene was not played during the introductory screening.
I hope to be able to write a more detailed recap of the Fest over the weekend. In the meantime, it was delightful to see old friends again, and to meet new people face to face for the first time. How I wish the fun didn't have to end!
ProfStokes
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After much internal deliberation, I have decided that my favorite Dark Shadows scene of all time is the scene where [spoiler]Barnabas first rises in 1795 and confronts and "kills" Angelique at the masoleum.[/spoiler] That is far and away the most intense scene of the series to me. It would have been made even better if the fat guy had not been in the shot in the background at one point, but that not-withstanding, the best scene of the show.
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It would have been made even better if the fat guy had not been in the shot in the background at one point, but that not-withstanding, the best scene of the show.
The fat guy... LOL!!! Wicked!
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I never know how to react to these top ten lists. It seems really weird to me that people would be able to make these lists in the first place. I must be from another planet because I could never put my finger on "the best of the best" and then work my way down from there, especially with DS--it's all so juicy and layered, who can choose?
I personally VASTLY prefer the scene between B & J down in the Collinwood drawing room BEFORE the confrontation in Julia's bedroom. The two are playing cat and mouse with one another or maybe little cat and big cat and Julia pretty much gets away with murder throughout. Not only are both actors much more on their respective marks in that drawing room scene, the scene itself is much better shot than the bedroom sequence.
And that scene betwen Willie and Barnabas during Tom Jennings just wasn't very well written or played. Yeah, it's cool that Barnabas admitted that he does "care for" Julia, but as theater the scene is way below par for the general tone of DS. YMMV of course and always.
Reading this list makes me realize how strongly people project their own narratives onto the series. I suppose that's why after all these years we keep watching and talking about it. It's no longer really about anything that happened on the show--it's much more about the show as a vehicle for our own fantasy lives.
It does seem odd that there are so few KLS and Josette fans online. In the old zines from the early 90s, I remember endless adverts for "Barnabas and Josette Forever" pillow--heart-shaped, to be scattered over the sofa.
G.
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I've never really compiled a top-ten list of favorite scenes; maybe I should. To me, more than just content has to go into it; I'd take into account things as writing, directing, acting, etc. Based on that, off the top, I'd have to say my two favorites were from 1897 and had nothing to do with supernatural things, but rather interactions between the characters (and included all the afore-mentioned things).
The first would be when Judith reads Grandmamama's will to her three stunned brothers. The sibling rivalry comes pouring out and all four of them really get into it. The second would be when Edward and Laura verbally duke it out, each accusing the other of being the most rotten, lousy parent on the face of the Earth when neither one would get the Ward and June prize; heck, they wouldn't even have qualified for the Al and Peg honorable mention.
Gerard
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Those are both excellent choices, Gerard! Somewhere in one of the interviews, I think Louis Edmonds referred to the first scene as "our very own version of the Little Foxes." If you've ever seen the Bette Davis film, you'll know what his context was for that observation.
I also love a couple of the scenes between Quentin and Laura--they're both so deliciously venomous with one another. There's also a quietly hysterical scene where Laura and Minerva Trask are comparing notes on child-rearing. Just excellent.
G.
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It does seem odd that there are so few KLS and Josette fans online. In the old zines from the early 90s, I remember endless adverts for "Barnabas and Josette Forever" pillow--heart-shaped, to be scattered over the sofa.
Exactly. Given that, it seems very odd. But perhaps things change over the years - and suddenly forever isn't quite as long as it once was...
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I was surprised that the scene in which Barnabas tells Angelique (after Josette is a no-show at their wedding) that he still loves Josette, whatever she has done, was not among the Top Ten. It's not a particular favorite of mine, but I thought it was for some other people. And while I love the scene in episode 290 in which Julia confronts Barnabas, which was voted #1, it really was Grayson Hall's big scene, not Jonathan Frid’s.
Lydia. . fun write up. I did hear the #1 clip was ended prematurely purely by accident, it was supposed to go more of the scene where Barnabas threatened Julia and tried to strangle her.
And for those doubting Thomases writing elsewhere, you simply had to be in the room. The Legion was relatively calm but the rest of the audience roared with approval whenever Grayson came on screen. I fail to understand why this critically acclaimed actress whom the shows creator adored, continues to receive such disrespect in fandom?
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Actually, it suddenly hit me that perhaps I really shouldn't have been surprised by the results. Why? Well, back in '98 AOL's now defunct DS Online held a sort of Emmy/Oscars type of ceremony with categories specific to DS (not just awards for favorite actor, actress, supporting and the like, but also for things like favorite severed body part, frightening moment and monster [ghost_cool]). Voting was not just open to AOL members but to all DS fans who were then currently online, and the response was overwhelming with hundreds of fans having responded. The interesting thing as it pertains to this discussion is that favorite actress turned out to be a tie between Grayson Hall and Lara Parker - the third nominee, KLS, was a very distant third when the results were tabulated. And now when it comes to the results of Frid's "game," the results are very much the same, with KLS not making any
As noted in my book even back in the day, when the show was on and 6 months after it was off, Grayson was voted in the Top 10 or 5 of daytime actresses; Lara was always there but not KLS. 6 months after the show was off air Grayson was still on the list, Lara had fallen off. [ghost_cool]
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when the show was on and 6 months after it was off, Grayson was voted in the Top 10 or 5 of daytime actresses; Lara was always there but not KLS. 6 months after the show was off air Grayson was still on the list, Lara had fallen off. [ghost_cool]
I'd forgotten about all that from back in the day, j99 - but it's all very true.
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i'll throw my humble two cents in on why kathryn leigh scott had such a poor showing in "the game"...
in a word:chemistry.she and jonathan frid just don't have it.
kathryn's somewhat subtle acting style played as rather bland contrasted to jonathan's largeness.
josette collins works for me as an abstract concept.a ghost.a legend.a myth.
but as a flesh and blood character she was pretty vapid.what's more kls only played the character but briefly and only for a few episodes with jonathan before angelique takes control so we don't see much interaction between the two.her "presence" on the show is much bigger than what the character actually merits.
with grayson hall and lara parker however frid had chemistry in spades.their much broader acting matched frid's bigness.they shared much more screen time,scene after scene,year after year,than scott and frid.there was also often a love/hate,push/pull dynamic between the characters that was just more fun than the fawning between barnabs and josette.
the reason maggie and joe were such a sweet couple is that scott and joel crothers were well matched in terms of acting style.there was a believability to it.since they were both original players they were in some ways leftovers from an earlier era before the types of over-the-top situations required acting methods to match.
besides because of the brutality that barnabas treated maggie with in 1967 i can never view any subsequent pairings of the two actors(rachel,kitty or any maggie variation)without some level of repulsion.just because the barnabas character became popular and they changed the writing for him those deeds cannot be undone.those images are burned onto my retina forever.
ironically i found alexandra moltke's rather flat acting style to be a fine match for frid.for me she had a somewhat regal presence that stood up to it.
the only other character i found frid to have less chemistry with was his other "great love" roxanne drew.for me they just batted zero.
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As one who participated in the scene searches, I will attest that there were a great many wonderful scenes that were selected by the fans who flocked to JF's site. (Lest anyone knowing my GH alliance, may it hereby be known that I was merely given scenes to locate in the episode guide so that numbers could be tallied more readily.) The number was vast, believe me. However, the tally was made on which scenes received THE MOST votes. Democratic huh?
Here is the breakout: 1)Julia confronts Barnabas with the knowledge of what he is. 2)1995 Never without you with Barnabas and Julia. 3)Barnabas and Willie and Willie's push to get Barnabas to acknowledge his caring for Julia. 4) Barnabas relates the story of Josette's death to Victoria and Carolyn. 5) Barnabas and David's initial meeting at the Old House. 6) Barnabas and Angelique and the initial curse visitation. 7) Barnabas and Burke and the bar scene where their situation is compared to a duel. 8)Barnabas seeks a truce with Julia after the 1795 flashback for fear that she will see him destroyed. 9) Barnabas,Trask and Angelique in 1840 and the death scene and Trask stabbing scene. 10) Barnabas and Trask reenact "The Cask of Amontillado."
Now, the top winner had 14 votes. The second I believe was 12. This should highlight just how many scenes out of the submissions received only one or two votes. So, there were three Grayson Hall scenes, two Lara Parker, two Lacy, and one each of Karlan,George,Molke,Barrett, and Henesy.
I also have to interject that the tallies and results were held by John's webmaster, Mark Lawrence, who has no knowledge of anyone's personal preferences or allegiances.
As for Grayson's Legion of fans, I will echo Julia99. We were a tame lot. The response at every festival is much the same when Grayson is mentioned. The outpouring of affection is gratifying as is the applause for Louis Edmonds, Joan Bennett, Thayer David, and Humbert Allen Astredo.
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i'll throw my humble two cents in on why kathryn leigh scott had such a poor showing in "the game"...
in a word:chemistry.she and jonathan frid just don't have it.
Oh, so well said.
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I agree about the whole chemistry thing between Frid and Scott. It played well when Frid first entered the show because all indications were that Barnabas was coveting something he should not have - that he was attracted to the innocence when he was so evil. And it was a replay of his coveting his uncle's wife. When they did the flashback and had them head over heels in love with one another, it just never clicked. It made for a much more entertaining storyline, but Frid and Scott never clicked. Frid and Parker, though, definitely clicked.
Hall and Frid had great chemistry together. The lack of respect towards her, I believe, stems from two things. First, with her decades of smoking she always sounded like she was gargling gravel. And second she was, and I really mean no offense here, but she really was uglier than a bowling shoe - especially compared to every other actress on the show. (Except, perhaps, Mrs. Johnson - but that is truly a close race.) I have seen some photos of Grayson where there is a mild hint of attractiveness but overall - no. Great actress though.
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Regarding chemistry between JF and KLS, I suppose it was somewhat muted by the fact that Barnabas' love for Josette was rather ethereal and idealistic, as opposed to his lust for Angelique (more earthy, thus more prone to being interpreted as more combustible).
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And second she was, and I really mean no offense here, but she really was uglier than a bowling shoe - especially compared to every other actress on the show. (Except, perhaps, Mrs. Johnson - but that is truly a close race.) I have seen some photos of Grayson where there is a mild hint of attractiveness but overall - no. Great actress though.
That is one opinion, I know many many many others, men and women who totally disagree. She is not a traditional beauty for sure but many others see her uniqueness as quite compelling.
I however, believe some of the disinclination for Julia is a hold-over agist thing. I've often heard fans say she was too old for Barnabas? What?! The actors were only apart in age by 1 year. Its the olderman with comely maiden thing is socially acceptable, so Frid's pairing with 20 somethings/close to the fans age at the time of the show, when he was in his 40s still seems okay in fan eyes but pairing him with someone his own age--well??
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I thought Grayson Hall was quite striking in looks. [ghost_smiley]
Nancy
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i'll throw my humble two cents in on why kathryn leigh scott had such a poor showing in "the game"...
in a word:chemistry.she and jonathan frid just don't have it.
Exactly. They did not have any chemistry to speak of.
Grayson Hall, Lara Parker and Jonathan Frid were three actors who could hold the viewer's attention on sight alone. Grayson had fanastically, striking looks. The camera loved her. Lara Parker was dynamic on camera. When any of these actors were paired with another, the screen was crackling, no question.
Frid was not the traditionally handsome matinee idol by any means. One critic described his face as being like a "garden trowel." Nonetheless, he had something the camera (and audience) liked. The same with Grayson Hall. She was hard to not watch when she was onscreen.
Grayson and Barnabas were at the core of every storyline. If the viewers didn't think that was worthwihle, that situation would have changed.
Nancy
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I do hope you are not right, KajunDC. Not having any respect for someone because of the sound of her voice or how attractive she is smacks of ignorance.
Nancy
The lack of respect towards her, I believe, stems from two things. First, with her decades of smoking she always sounded like she was gargling gravel. And second she was, and I really mean no offense here, but she really was uglier than a bowling shoe - especially compared to every other actress on the show. (Except, perhaps, Mrs. Johnson - but that is truly a close race.) I have seen some photos of Grayson where there is a mild hint of attractiveness but overall - no. Great actress though.
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i just wanted to make it clear that my remarks were in no way a diss to kls.
i love maggie...especially her early scenes at the diner.
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josette collins works for me as an abstract concept.a ghost.a legend.a myth.
but as a flesh and blood character she was pretty vapid.
Josette was by no means vapid. She was a young woman of strong and excellent principles. When, as far as she could tell, she singlehandedly ruined her own life, she did not complain, and she wished Barnabas and Angelique well when they married. If I had the choice of being like anybody at all on Dark Shadows, I would want to be like Josette.
But – as mscbryk notes - she didn't last long. Angelique and Julia lasted until the end of the series as functioning, interacting characters. Josette, on the other hand, was pretty much a figment of Barnabas’s imagination after 1795, so there's less of her for fans to remember.
When I was thinking about the Top Ten Frid Scenes question today, one that came forcibly to my mind was the one in episode 418 in which Angelique lured Josette to the mausoleum. Just now I went to check what episode it was, and lo and behold I found the following in the Watching Project:
I think that final scene between Barnabas and Josette must be among my top ten Dark Shadows scenes. Josette makes it seem so absolutely right that they should be together, and we know that it is now so wrong.
The scenes around episodes 445-447 in the basement of the Old House between Joshua and Barnabas have to be in my Top Ten as well.
And for those doubting Thomases writing elsewhere, you simply had to be in the room. The Legion was relatively calm but the rest of the audience roared with approval whenever Grayson came on screen.
I was there, and I was applauding madly for Julia. (I don't roar. Not my style.) But, as I understood this, it was Top Ten Frid Scenes – not Top Ten Dark Shadows Scenes – and I don't think the final scene in 290 was Best of Frid. Also, like Gothick, I prefer the preceding scene between Barnabas and Julia in the drawing room, when Julia made it clear to Barnabas that she was onto him.
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I can appreciate what you are saying Nancy but that is how the American culture has been taught to think, especially where "romantic" storylines are concerned. Grayson had respect as an actress, just not as a love interest.
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I don't know about others, but I find compassionate and caring people quite lovable. I think that Grayson's Julia had a host of endearing qualities as the character developed. Frankly, Barnabas needed to get away from his romantic, idealistic perceptions and begin to live in the real world where deeper, honest, emotional love lives. [love3]
Just my POV mind you. [a2a3]
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Grayson Hall's beauty, power and brilliance is burned like a bright enduring brand forever in my heart and soul...
but then, I'm biased.
*wink*
G.
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I am still puzzled why so many of you think Jonathan had chemistry with Ms. Hall--she could give poignant performances but more often than not acted so over the top that parodies of her are not that off the mark....JF and Lara had chemistry together in spades (even to this day),and I think he and KLS had some depending on who her character was, yes for Josette and Kitty Hampshire, less with Maggie or Rachel Drummond....so I was glad to see Angelique's death scene in 1840 made the list, as sad as that is for fans of theirs...but what a scene!!
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Well, obviously most of the Ds audience back when the show ran thought the two had dynamic chemistry together otherwise the two would not have been at the core of almost every storyline while the series ran.
nancy
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I can appreciate what you are saying Nancy but that is how the American culture has been taught to think, especially where "romantic" storylines are concerned. Grayson had respect as an actress, just not as a love interest.
Yes, I understand your point. I guess I just won't be told how to think.;)
Nancy
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I think fave scenes have as much, if not more, to do with factors such as the writing and directing as they do with the chemistry of the actress involved with JF. I would like to suggest that the idea of a woman outsmarting Barnabas the way that Julia did, along with the very dramatic declaration that she knew what he was, makes for must-see TV. Ultimately, I believe it's the intensity of that situation that puts that scene in the winning slot. I would even hazard a guess that the top scenes are all outstanding due to different factors.
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I like your take on this Miranda and I think you've hit upon something. Of course, we all like to enjoy those scenes of our favorites characters (over and over again) but each scene defined some turning point with a character or story line. Angelique setting her curse on Barnabas was key. The cat and mouse of Barnabas and Julia. The parry and thrust between Barnabas and Burke. The sheer evil of Barnabas when dealing with Trask. All of these were dynamic scenes.
No matter whether Frid was acting against a male or female counterpart in these scenes, it was important.
Dawn