DARK SHADOWS FORUMS
General Discussions => Current Talk Archive => Current Talk '25 I => Current Talk '09 I => Topic started by: Watching Project on January 19, 2009, 07:04:52 PM
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Robservations #711
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Crimeny, only ten episodes into 1897 with a nifty storyline simmering nicely, and what must they do but bring Angelique back! I have great admiration for Lara Parker's performance, but I don't like Angelique and that's that.
The opening voiceover intrigued me. It said (thank you, Robservations!) "This is no ordinary night at Collinwood. For once before, in 1897, two desperate men and a child as their unwitting pawn sought the devil's help. Now, incredibly, time has reeled backwards, and that horrifying night is to be lived again." So the ceremony in the cottage happened during the original 1897, despite that fact that Barnabas wasn't there, and he's the one who caused Quentin and Evan to hold the ceremony this time around. Why did they want the devil's help in the original 1897? I'm figuring it was because Edith's ghost was running around scaring Quentin, which would mean that it wasn't Barnabas who caused her spirit to become restless. I'm open to other ideas, however. Next question: in the original 1897, did Angelique appear, or was there some other outcome to the ceremony? I find it hard to believe that Angelique would appear without Barnabas as a magnet to draw her to 1897. Maybe the ceremony just fizzled in the original version, but that would be surprising at Collinwood. Again, I'm open to other ideas.[spoiler]I am aware that Beth told Julia in 1969 that Quentin was murdered because he had planned to marry Angelique instead of Beth, which would be an indication that Angelique somehow made it to the original 1897. I can get around that without too much trouble, but I can't see putting the workaround in the discussion for this episode, buried in a spoiler. So...[/spoiler] Assume for the sake of argument that Angelique didn't appear at the original ceremony. In that case, what did happen?
And another thing about that voiceover: What is the meaning of "time has reeled backwards"? I don't think it's correct. It suggests that time is a single line. Later (much later) episodes strongly indicate that 1969 and 1897 are running concurrently, making time a double line at the very least. And "reeled backwards"? What does that mean? A movie reel, I suppose, and if we looked closely when Barnabas did the I Ching business we could have seen all the actions of the universe going backwards at an incredibly fast rate - the bullet comes out of JFK's head, millions of babies are sucked back into their mother's wombs - but again, that can't be right. The wording reminds me of the song "Backward, turn backward, O Time in thy flight" and perhaps that was what was in the mind the writer, who was Violet Welles, according to the credits.
Once again Angelique displays excellent craftwork, whipping up that doll in no time flat. Knitted, not crocheted, right?
I like the dreamy look that Kathryn Leigh Scott adopts as Rachel. Rachel's a sweet, boring little character, but KLS does her best for her.
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A boy - where to begin!!
Time traveling on Dark Shadows pops up so many theories, that one can get a migraine trying to wrap our minds around it. Nonetheless, we do it anyway!!
So according to the opening voiceover, this same ceremony happened "originally" in 1897.
I suppose that some other reason was involved in conducting the ceremony, one not involving Barnabas.
As far as Angelique is concerned, I just don't see here involved "originally" in 1897.
It would have been nice to see what "originally" happened in 1897, w/o Barn & Angelique's involvement.
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She's baaack!!! [snow_wink]
I for one am thrilled that Angelique has returned. She's an evil little w(b)itch, but damned if she doesn't make things interesting. Love her line "If you didn't want trouble, you should never have called me" or something like that. So true.
Is it just me, or does anyone else think that Angelique saw in Evan Hanley Nicholas Blair's twin, just as she saw Rachel Josette's twin. I think she WANTED an excuse to choke him, and he certainly obliged.
Rachel, on the other hand, did nothing. Her only crime was to look like Josette which is all the reason Angelique needed to hurt her.
I can't see Angelique existing in 1897 without Barnabas either. I think the writers really should have come up with something better for [spoiler] Quentin's death at the hands of Beth in the original order of things. [/spoiler]
Still, fun episode all the same.
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Lydia-- As I see it: At the point when Julia talked to Beth's ghost, Barnabas had already gone back to 1897 and changed many things. What Beth told Julia reflects those changes. If Julia had tried to have that conversation pre-I-Ching, her answer would have been different.
Voiceovers are there partly to make viewers comfortable with the strange ideas in the plot. For those viewers who can't quite handle time-travel, they claim time raced back to 1897, but it didn't, only Barnabas did that. The viewer's perspective changed, not time. I think voiceovers are therefore not "canon".
Lydia, you don't like Angelique?! I love her re-appearance. It makes up for all the OTT 1968 business I think. The language involved is really atmospheric, and full of a sense of significance. It's more than that, but I can't articulate it. Suddenly the character is reinvigorated by just this one scene.
Evan and Q might have called for a rep from the Devil for some other stategem involving the will, I suppose, the "first time around". They probably would have received a different person in Evan's fireplace.
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They probably would have received a different person in Evan's fireplace.
I don't think so.
Angelique has spent the last hundred years in Hell, no doubt chomping at the infernal bit to return to the living. Securing that return, however, required two conditions-- Diabolos' permission, and of course the opportunity. She did some creative negotiating to pull off #1, and suffice to say it had nothing to do with Barnabas. Then, Evan's black ritual took care of requirement #2.
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[spoiler]Jumping WAY ahead to 1840 ~ I can't quite remember, but isn't Angelique just kind of flitting about on her own? She comes to check up on Barnabas and finds him released.
Maybe originally it was the same Angelique from 1840, and not Cassangelique?[/spoiler]
My brain!
[spoiler]But I'm with Magnus regarding Beth's telling of Quentin's death.[/spoiler]
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My brain!
I know!!
[spoiler]This 1897 Angelique, we'll learn down the line, has Cassangelique's memories.[/spoiler]
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I for one am thrilled that Angelique has returned. She's an evil little w(b)itch, but damned if she doesn't make things interesting.
Oh, me too. Quentin's description of her as "our beautiful black-hearted child of the angels" was great. Love the brown dress, too.
Quentin and Angelique seem to be cut from the same cloth-- both had "larger expectations" than what they were given in life, and they're beautiful and clever and learned to take what they wanted by whatever force necessary.
Is it just me, or does anyone else think that Angelique saw in Evan Hanley Nicholas Blair's twin, just as she saw Rachel Josette's twin. I think she WANTED an excuse to choke him, and he certainly obliged.
Maybe she just really didn't like lawyers? [winkb]
Seriously, the scene IS fun to watch. But I don't recall any character saying that Evan and Nicholas have the same face, whereas the resemblances between other characters throughout the series got mentioned even in cases when they also ended up not meaning anything-- [spoiler]Rachel and Josette (because I don't believe a soul can be reincarnated into two persons at the same time),[/spoiler] Matthew Morgan and Ben, Ned Stuart and Jeff/Peter, Sebastian Shaw and Jeb. So maybe we're not supposed to notice that Evan and Nicholas could be twins.
Rachel, ... Her only crime was to look like Josette which is all the reason Angelique needed to hurt her.
If Angelique's reason for going after Rachel was that she was a Josette look-a-like, I don't think there would have been any need for the scene in which Angie witnessed Rachel receiving the music box from Barnabas. So I blame Barnabas, who seems to keep forgetting why he's in 1897 and apparently can't stop himself from indiscriminately changing future events. And by giving the music box away, how does he even know it will get back to where it's supposed to be in 1967? <sigh>
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It would be for the best I think, if the music box isn't there in 1967.
1897 has CassAng's memories, yes, but I think this comment was a response to the idea of 1840 Ang continuing on to 1897 "the first time around" and being involved with Q. She would never have been to 1968, but still would be Angelique.
I like the Craig Ferguson "I know!!"
Ang certainly tried hard to get back to the world, but wasn't specifically aiming for 1897 I think. Somehow Beel Z. Bubb wanted her to make mischief in her chosen area and sent her to 1897 I guess, when Evan called. Ang seemed surprised at when she had appeared.
"The first time around" Ang wouldn't have had a stake in 1897, so a more appropriate demon would have been in the fireplace, who did have a stake in that 1897, I think.
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Barnabas' preoccupation with another Josette lookalike drives me nuts too. Whether it's Rachel or [spoiler] Lady Kitty Soames who actually was the reincarnation of Josette [/spoiler] it does distract him from his mission from 1897. Barnabas needs to stay focused on David and Chris, not on pursuing yet another potential Josette. [snow_rolleyes]
No, Angelique never remarks on the resemblance between Evan and Nicholas (and neither did Barnabas) but that doesn't mean she didn't see it. Maybe I'm just reading too much into it. As you say, Midnite, maybe Angelique really hates lawyers with a passion. [snow_wink]
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1897 has CassAng's memories, yes, but I think this comment was a response to the idea of 1840 Ang continuing on to 1897 "the first time around" and being involved with Q. She would never have been to 1968, but still would be Angelique.
I understand, and the point I made very badly before is that arashi's theory calls for the wandering, coffin-sitting (1840) Angelique to be replaced in the 1897 reboot by the Angelique who had been to the future and came out of hell. It's an intriguing notion, but it would require her history to change, and what could've caused that?
Back to this ep, I totally agree that she was taken by surprise. Angie got really, really lucky that the deal she made to come back (explained in #882) brought her not only to Collinwood, but to a time when Barnabas was out and about and, at least in the beginning, no one other than him knew who she was.
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I understand, and the point I made very badly before is that arashi's theory calls for the wandering, coffin-sitting (1840) Angelique to be replaced in the 1897 reboot by the Angelique who had been to the future and came out of hell. It's an intriguing notion, but it would require her history to change, and what could've caused that?
I understand now. I picture an Ang fresh from 1968 arriving in 1897 only to run into formerly 1840 Ang who got to 1897 the old fashioned way.
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i remember from thr original run how totally unexpected this was. I always thought that Angelique added so much to the show. Barnabas just can't seem to stay focused. I can see how he ended up getting involed with Angelique in the first place and then back to Josette.
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Since I seem to be the milestone poster, I'll say that this was (obviously) the episode when Angelique first appeared in 1897. [milestone] I noticed in the previous episode, there was a skull with blond hair that was shown emerging from the flames. In this episode, you could see right away that it was Angelique. [snow_wink] It was fun to watch Angelique cause Evan to choke and be unable to speak. Her whole demeanor with Quentin and Evan was so cagey and autocratic! I loved it! [snow_cheesy] She was in control and relished it, milking it for all it was worth! I loved it when Evan and Quentin ran over to where Angelique was after she disappeared! They were at a loss about what they had unleashed in Angelique. She knew everything (it seemed) about them, and they knew nothing about her. [snow_shocked]
Angelique sure did knit that doll fast! How fortuitous that she found that yarn in the cottage. [thumb] She was repeating herself with the choking the doll scenario. Barnabas would surely be able to figure out that it was Angelique. I suspect she planned it that way. [snow_smileydevil]
I enjoyed watching the scenes when Barnabas caught Sandor forging the will. When Barnabas said, "We mustn't have that." to Sandor, with a smile on his face, it was very amusing. [snow_laugh]
My theory is that Angelique appeared in the original 1897, but she was a continuation of the 1840 Angelique. I don't believe that she came out of the fireplace in the original storyline. I think some other evil person from Hell came out of the flames in the original storyline. Hey! I just got an idea! Maybe it was Laura! [ideag]
----- Sally -----
[snow_bigglass] [hippy2]
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That's my provisional theory too...
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My theory is that Angelique appeared in the original 1897, but she was a continuation of the 1840 Angelique. I don't believe that she came out of the fireplace in the original storyline. I think some other evil person from Hell came out of the flames in the original storyline. Hey! I just got an idea! Maybe it was Laura! [ideag]
I don't think anyone came out of the flames in the original 1897. They were trying to conjure up help to deal with Barnabas, and Barnabas wasn't there the first time around.
Whether Angelique came for some other purpose or not, I can't decide!
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But Laura is in no way tied to the powers or darkness, and as for Evan's summons to rise up from the darkness of the earth, she presumably has [spoiler]already risen from the ashes in Alexandria.[/spoiler]
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I for one am thrilled that Angelique has returned. She's an evil little w(b)itch, but damned if she doesn't make things interesting.
Oh, me too. Quentin's description of her as "our beautiful black-hearted child of the angels" was great. .....
Quentin and Angelique seem to be cut from the same cloth-- both had "larger expectations" than what they were given in life, and they're beautiful and clever and learned to take what they wanted by whatever force necessary.
Loved that description too, as well as Quentin's description of himself as "a man with larger expectations than life has heretofore offered me" (hope I didn't mess up the quote - I can't reverse on the dvd player I'm using right now). Both phrases just have SUCH a Victorian feel to them.
As to Quentin and Angelique -- definitely two very similar people. They would make a good match in some timeline or another. I think he's way better suited to her than Barnabas -- Quentin LIKES independent, intelligent, strong minded women, whereas I don't think Barnabas is comfortable around any but naieve ingenues. I know there's a few Blake's 7 fans on here, and I've probably made this analogy before, but those two matched up would be a less toxic version of the Avon/ Servalan love hate relationship.
If Angelique's reason for going after Rachel was that she was a Josette look-a-like, I don't think there would have been any need for the scene in which Angie witnessed Rachel receiving the music box from Barnabas. So I blame Barnabas, who seems to keep forgetting why he's in 1897 and apparently can't stop himself from indiscriminately changing future events. And by giving the music box away, how does he even know it will get back to where it's supposed to be in 1967? <sigh>
[snow_silly] Someone needs to teach Barnabas about a little thing called the Prime Directive......
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I know there's a few Blake's 7 fans on here...
Cool!
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And though I'm only on here sporatically, I remembered that YOU are one of them. [snow_wink]
There's a couple more folks I remember mentioning it from time to time as well. Such a pity no PBS station has shown it in years, there's no intent to release it on region 1 dvd -- and even if one HAS a multstandard machine, the UK versions are very pricy. [snow_sad]
So chances are slim to none of the fandom ever getting enough new blood to take off again in the States.
Jeannie
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So chances are slim to none of the fandom ever getting enough new blood to take off again in the States.
In the UK there's supposed to be a new "reboot" Blank's Seven with new actors, starting the same story over from the beginning, on Sky Television. That kind of thing I'm not interested in, myself. It's a replacement series, not a continuation. And I herely stop veering wildly away from DS.
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I loved Evan's somewhat flippant comment regarding Quentin's obvious matinee-idol looks - envy much? [snow_sick2]
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Funny thing is, to me they BOTH have matinee idol looks-- just different types.
Its a given that the makeup people did a great job giving all the characters, especially the men, a Victorian LOOK. With Selby it was more the Byronic dark and dangerous rake.
HAA was more the Claude Rains type, the handsome, suave sophisticated older man with a twinkle in his eye. [easter_grin]
Jeannie
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I think HAA would be the kind of matinee idol who secretly wore lifts in his shoes, and they would have made Selby stand in a trench!
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[laughing6] Thanks so much for the mental image of Alan Ladd as Nicholas Blair! [easter_evil]
Jeannie