DARK SHADOWS FORUMS

General Discussions => Current Talk Archive => Current Talk '24 I => Current Talk '07 II => Topic started by: Janet the Wicked on July 12, 2007, 02:11:59 AM

Title: A Woman Scorned - The Great Angelique/Barnabas/Josette Affair
Post by: Janet the Wicked on July 12, 2007, 02:11:59 AM
In the midst of 1795. Haveing a debate with my better half concerning Barnabas' infidelity to his promised bride.
Was Barnabas wrong to have made love to servant Angelique while courting Josette? Was he wrong to expect Angelique to assume their affair was nothing more than a tryst?
Title: Re: A Woman Scorned - The Great Angelique/Barnabas/Josette Affair
Post by: Lydia on July 12, 2007, 02:41:21 AM
Josette wasn't Barnabas's promised bride at the time, and apparently he didn't even think Josette was even interested in him.  Still, it was wrong of him to dally with a servant girl.  In that time, all the males around him probably thought it was standard procedure, but Barnabas had modern ideas - for example, about Ben Stokes.

And yes, Barnabas was wrong to expect Angelique to assume their affair was nothing more than a tryst, but she was a fool to assume that it was anything more.  It's conceivable that Barnabas made it clear to Angelique that the tryst would go no further, and that Angelique just refused to believe him.  Angelique was exceptionally good at wishful thinking.
Title: Re: A Woman Scorned - The Great Angelique/Barnabas/Josette Affair
Post by: michael c on July 12, 2007, 02:55:31 AM
i'm never 100% sure of the timeline here.so barnabas had his dalliance with angelique before he actively began to court josette?

at the very least he was quite foolish never to think that perhaps the scorned servant in a moment of jealous pique might not say to her lady "guess what sister?i've been with your man!". >:D
Title: Re: A Woman Scorned - The Great Angelique/Barnabas/Josette Affair
Post by: Sunny_Collins on July 12, 2007, 03:21:55 AM
I think Barnabas's affair with Angelique was an attempt on his part to rebel against his dominating father. Terrible as it sounds, I believe he used Angelique as a part in his youthful defiance.

In the heat of the moment he may have wanted to promise her all kinds of things, but realistically he knew any kind of permanent relationship with her was impossible.

For one thing, Joshua wouldn't allow it, and as much as Barnabas wanted to make his own decisions, I don't think he was courageous enough to so completely go against him. He's caught between wanting to be his own man, and wanting to make his father proud of him.

I think Angelique blew the whole affair out of proportion, reading more in to his words than was there. Should he have led her on? No. Was it wrong of him to pretend to care about her? Yes.
Title: Re: A Woman Scorned - The Great Angelique/Barnabas/Josette Affair
Post by: Brandon Collins on July 12, 2007, 03:48:47 AM
I'm not completely sure if it was adequately explained on the show that Barnabas had an affair with Angelique BEFORE he started courting Josette. It could've been during the courtship, or he and Josette could've broken up and Barnabas could've taken refuge in Angelique's waiting arms. The reason that many people think that it began before the fact, to my knowledge anyway, is because of Lara Parker's book, "Angelique Descent", in which she explains that Barnabas came to Martinique on a business trip with his father and had a dalliance with Angelique, then dumped her like a sack of potatoes and went with her mistress, Josette.

Personally, I always thought that Angelique read more into the relationship than what was really there, but it wasn't completely her fault. Barnabas could've led her on, and could've used her for a good time when he needed one while on the island, and then never formally broke things off with her, just kind of left her by the wayside while he turned his sights to Josette. Of course, to assume that Barnabas used Angelique at all would be kind of going against his character because he was being portrayed on the show as morally righteous. Then again, he did kill his Uncle, who was raised as his brother and was his best friend. So, shit happens I guess.

It is possible, as Sunny Collins said, that maybe Barnabas had the tryst with Angelique to go against his domineering father. I'm not sure that's what he really did. It's kind of hard for me to believe that Barnabas would take such a radical action, given the rational guy he was before he was turned into a vampire. But young people do stupid things, and Barnabas is no different. There's no telling what he did before we saw him in 1795. I mean, didn't he say that he lusted after Laura Collins, Jeremiah's first wife, when telling Sandor the story of Laura in 1897? So if he lusted after her, then there was definitely sin in his heart as defined by biblical terms and what many people believe.

For me personally, I like to believe that Barnabas and Angelique had a fling, that he dropped her when he caught sight of Josette, her mistress, and that's how Angelique's scornful ways began. Because basically what Barnabas did, if he did do that, was tell Angelique that he wasn't good enough for him because she wasn't rich and wasn't the daughter of a respectable man. If that's not a big slap in the face, I don't know what is.
Title: Re: A Woman Scorned - The Great Angelique/Barnabas/Josette Affair
Post by: Midnite on July 12, 2007, 05:22:23 AM
I'm not completely sure if it was adequately explained on the show that Barnabas had an affair with Angelique BEFORE he started courting Josette. It could've been during the courtship, or he and Josette could've broken up and Barnabas could've taken refuge in Angelique's waiting arms.

It was made pretty clear in this conversation in Barnabas' room on Angelique's first night in America:

A:  You're so different here.  You're as cold as that wind outside your house.

B:  I am not cold, but I want to be.  I have to be.

A:  Why?

B:  Because, Angelique, I didn't know that we were going to be married then.  To be honest, I thought I was in love with Josette but I didn't realize she was in love with me.  But now that we've written, (pause) well, you and I... It's impossible.


In that same scene, he blamed his own weakness for their affair and admitted that he continued to think of her after leaving Martinique.  I'm certain his dalliance with Angelique was borne out of passion and not rebellion.
Title: Re: A Woman Scorned - The Great Angelique/Barnabas/Josette Affair
Post by: Angelique Wins on July 12, 2007, 05:42:46 AM
It was made pretty clear in this conversation in Barnabas' room on Angelique's first night in America:

A:  You're so different here.  You're as cold as that wind outside your house.

B:  I am not cold, but I want to be.  I have to be.

A:  Why?

B:  Because, Angelique, I didn't know that we were going to be married then.  To be honest, I thought I was in love with Josette but I didn't realize she was in love with me.  But now that we've written, (pause) well, you and I... It's impossible.


In that same scene, he blamed his own weakness for their affair and admitted that he continued to think of her after leaving Martinique.  I'm certain his dalliance with Angelique was was borne out of passion and not rebellion.

I agree with Midnite, and of course, this scene.  And later, when Barnabas offered himself to Angelique if she would only stop the curse, he promised (and he told Julia later) something like, "to get back what we had in the beginning."  That's not a quote--I don't have the tape or DVD--but I always thought that second scene sort of confirmed that Angelique wasn't just a one-night dalliance.

Judy
[angl]
Title: Re: A Woman Scorned - The Great Angelique/Barnabas/Josette Affair
Post by: Mysterious Benefactor on July 12, 2007, 05:58:41 AM
I mean, didn't he say that he lusted after Laura Collins, Jeremiah's first wife, when telling Sandor the story of Laura in 1897?

Well, not quite. Barnabas told Charity that when he first saw Laura when he was a child of ten, he felt there could never be a more beautiful woman - but an appreciation of beauty doesn't necessarily imply lust - not to mention that most ten-year-olds wouldn't have anything approaching the lustful thoughts of adults, if they would even be having any sort of lustful thoughts at all.  ;)  And in the crypt after opening her grave, Barn and Sandor only discussed the circumstances surrounding Laura's death.
Title: Re: A Woman Scorned - The Great Angelique/Barnabas/Josette Affair
Post by: adamsgirl on July 12, 2007, 02:16:51 PM
I'm with AngeliqueWins on this one. I think Barnabas truly cared for Angelique. Going further, in my opinion, he convinced himself he loved Josette simply because she was the "right" match for him socially, and Angelique was not. In fact, if you think about how completely obsessed he was later on with Josette, it makes even more sense. He was so determined NOT to be wrong about loving Josette, he stuck to it like anyone trapped in a delusion would be.

In that scene where he visits Angelique's room, ostensibly to tell her that there was no hope, the one MB referred to, he obviously can't resist her. He grabs her and lays one on her very passionately. I saw that not just as lust, but as a man really hungry for the woman he truly loved, one who'd missed her desperately. That he tried valiantly to ignore it is true, but he wasn't very successful at that point. This, of course, fueled Angelique's fury even more.

To me, Josette was so wrong for him. She was a bit of an airhead and a pampered, spoiled child. Angelique was every inch a woman and very much his match, IMHO.
Title: Re: A Woman Scorned - The Great Angelique/Barnabas/Josette Affair
Post by: Gothick on July 12, 2007, 03:04:26 PM
Unfortunately they never did a flashback showing us the circumstances of Barnabas' original liaison with Angelique.  (And it's a pity they didn't, because I'm sure Frid and Parker would have blown the roof off the studio in such a scene!)  So, it's up to the viewer to interpret the various things that Barnabas and Angelique say to one another--and to other characters--about their trysts in Martinique.

In evaluating those various scenes, I for one bear in mind that Barnabas showed himself to be a master in the fine art of rationalization when it came to his own needs, while Angelique already seemed old in the arts of cunning when we first see her as an apparently demure lady's maid in 1795.  So, I pretty much find it impossible to take ANYTHING that either of them says about the situation of their original affair at face value.

For what it's worth, my interpretation is that Barnabas used Angelique for physical gratification, as so many of his peers did with other servants in 18th century genteel society.  Judging from things she says to Ben fairly early on in 1795 about intending to get for herself EVERYTHING that Mam'selle Josette has, I view Angelique as having been amibitious from the start (I would hesitate to call her a gold-digger, though) and seeing a way into upward social mobility through matrimony with Barnabas.

One also needs to bear in mind that folk ethics around pre-marital sex were probably a LOT more fluid in tropical Martinique than was the case in Maine.

Again, just speaking for myself, I don't think Barnabas ever really "cared" for Angelique, although in that initial scene in 1795 you can see him trying to be somewhat gracious with her, initially.  He doesn't really get rude until it becomes clear that she is not taking "no" for an answer.  As for Angelique, I would describe her attachment to Barnabas as obsession--not love. I see a lot of it, particularly the original 1795 narrative, as being about her injured pride and her need for the validation of higher status in genteel society, than about the pure affections of her sweetly adoring heart.   I'll leave it at that because we've already gone over all of this a million times in the past.

G.
Title: Re: A Woman Scorned - The Great Angelique/Barnabas/Josette Affair
Post by: Midnite on July 12, 2007, 05:32:53 PM
In that scene where he visits Angelique's room, ostensibly to tell her that there was no hope, the one MB referred to, he obviously can't resist her. He grabs her and lays one on her very passionately. I saw that not just as lust, but as a man really hungry for the woman he truly loved, one who'd missed her desperately. That he tried valiantly to ignore it is true, but he wasn't very successful at that point.

Assuming you mean the scene I posted (since MB's post refers to another time period), it took place in Barn's room and occurred in the ep previous to the one in which he visits her quarters and kisses her.  But anyway, I do agree that the kiss was passionate, but I don't equate the passion he felt for Angelique with love; far from it.  ;)
Title: Re: A Woman Scorned - The Great Angelique/Barnabas/Josette Affair
Post by: Brandon Collins on July 12, 2007, 07:14:27 PM
Again, just speaking for myself, I don't think Barnabas ever really "cared" for Angelique, although in that initial scene in 1795 you can see him trying to be somewhat gracious with her, initially.  He doesn't really get rude until it becomes clear that she is not taking "no" for an answer.  As for Angelique, I would describe her attachment to Barnabas as obsession--not love. I see a lot of it, particularly the original 1795 narrative, as being about her injured pride and her need for the validation of higher status in genteel society, than about the pure affections of her sweetly adoring heart.   I'll leave it at that because we've already gone over all of this a million times in the past.

With what Midnite posted regarding that scene in Angelique's room, that I had obviously forgotten about, it changes much of what I originally said. That conversation truly leads me to believe that Barnabas and Josette had already begun dating, and since he felt that she didn't return his love, he got discouraged at one point and decided to look for love in all the wrong places :D

And as for what I quoted above from what Gothick said, I think Barnabas and Angelique's entire relationship revolved around obsession about something. Barnabas slept with Angelique, then dumped her because he started obsessing over his love for Josette, perhaps trying to convince himself that he truly did love Josette and NOT Angelique because he knew that Angelique was below him and he'd be frowned upon for loving her. This caused Angelique's long obsession over gaining Barnabas' love by any means necessary, which led to Barnabas obsession for blood, and for saving the Collins family, blah blah blah, bringing us finally to the conclusion of their story in 1840 when Angelique is shot, Barnabas realizes he loves her, confesses that love, end of obsessions, and let's move on.

Barn and Ang tried to start a new trend--obsession is better than love. Unfortunately for them, it didn't really work out until those final brief moments before Angelique's death.
Title: Re: A Woman Scorned - The Great Angelique/Barnabas/Josette Affair
Post by: Sunny_Collins on July 12, 2007, 09:04:39 PM
I believe there is an episode shortly after Angelique arrives at Collinwood, in which barnabas says he promised her nothing, and she responds with something like, "Not all promises are made with words."

Not sure, however...  :-
Title: Re: A Woman Scorned - The Great Angelique/Barnabas/Josette Affair
Post by: Lydia on July 13, 2007, 01:01:52 AM
I believe there is an episode shortly after Angelique arrives at Collinwood, in which barnabas says he promised her nothing, and she responds with something like, "Not all promises are made with words."

Not sure, however...  :-
That was in 1968, if I remember correctly,


Spoiler:



when Barnabas was in Angelique's vampire power.
Title: Re: A Woman Scorned - The Great Angelique/Barnabas/Josette Affair
Post by: Janet the Wicked on July 13, 2007, 01:16:28 AM
What do you think about Angelique harming Sarah because Barnabas refused her love?
Was she in the right when she turned Barnabas into a vampire in the end?
Title: Re: A Woman Scorned - The Great Angelique/Barnabas/Josette Affair
Post by: Angelique Wins on July 13, 2007, 04:20:23 AM
What do you think about Angelique harming Sarah because Barnabas refused her love?
Was she in the right when she turned Barnabas into a vampire in the end?

Well, I just wrote an eloquent response to this and my computer ate it.  When I resurrect my thoughts, I'll be back.

Judy [angl]
Title: Re: A Woman Scorned - The Great Angelique/Barnabas/Josette Affair
Post by: Angelique Wins on July 13, 2007, 04:56:57 AM
What do you think about Angelique harming Sarah because Barnabas refused her love?
Was she in the right when she turned Barnabas into a vampire in the end?

Well, the "Sarah" thing was just downright wicked, not to mention terrible in my opinion.  I think if you have a conscience, if you have empathy for others, then yes, it was horrible.  But that's considering it from our point of view.  If you were free and easy with your powers, if you distanced yourself from us "foolish mortals," and thought that everybody was just another tool to use to get what you wanted-and weren't you sooo clever for doing it-- then it makes sense.

Honestly, Black Arts 101 certainly didn't place much value on "consequence."  If you cast a spell on someone, or curse them, be SURE you can remove the curse as well, because somewhere down the road you just MIGHT realize you've made a BIG mistake.  And speaking of mistakes, Angie made some HUGE ones.  She regretted trying to strangle Barn, and had to hurry to undo her magic and then when she successfully cursed him to be a vampire, she changed her mind once she realized she didn't die.  And then she couldn't undo it.  (Although some 40 years later, she was able to do it so easily "POOF" that it wasn't even exciting enough to give air time to.  Go figure.)  Yes, our Angie was great at actions.  Not great on figuring out what would happen as a result of her actions, but nobody's perfect, lol!

Can you just see it?   >:D  "Angelique...about this latest curse you've come up with...Do you see a problem with 'EVERYBODY who LOVES Barnabas dies?'   Let's think about this..."

Judy
[angl]

P.S.  Well, not QUITE as eloquent as "the post that got away," but it's got a nice beat.  I can dance to it.
Title: Re: A Woman Scorned - The Great Angelique/Barnabas/Josette Affair
Post by: Brandon Collins on July 13, 2007, 05:22:18 AM
I don't think that anything justifies killing someone, no matter what they've done to you. So, Angelique was definitely in the wrong to make Sarah ill just so that she could manipulate Barnabas into being with her, but when that failed and she saw that Sarah might die, and that Barnabas would be utterly distraugt for a very longtime and therefore even more disinterested in loving her, she decided to remedy the situation.

And when she turned him into a vampire, that was just done out of the spirit of hatred and revenge in the heat of the moment. This same situation has happened a lot throughout history, and probably in many of your lives, when you decide to do something in the heat of the moment, and then after you've thought about it, wish you could fix it and take it back. Angelique cursed herself when she cursed Barnabas, which is why, IMO, her professing her love for him and him for her in 1840, it wasn't too OUT THERE. Beacuse whether or not the writers realized it, they were bringing Barnabas and Angelique's storyline full circle.
Title: Re: A Woman Scorned - The Great Angelique/Barnabas/Josette Affair
Post by: Gothick on July 13, 2007, 03:16:54 PM
I've always thought one of the most illuminating moments Angelique had in her dealings with Barnabas was when, during a crisis in 1968, she blurted out to him:  "You've never cared what I was feeling or thinking!" I think that was a moment of truth for her.

I really don't care for the end of 1840 at all, particularly given Angelique's actions in her initial entrance in that storyline.  I just find it taxes even my abilities to suspend disbelief with respect to DS.  I also think that it robs the story of a great deal of its tragic punch.  Just my own opinion--I do grok why the more romantically inclined Barn/Ang 'shippers love the idea of it.

cheers, G.
Title: Re: A Woman Scorned - The Great Angelique/Barnabas/Josette Affair
Post by: Brandon Collins on July 13, 2007, 03:34:27 PM
I don't really love the entire idea of Angelique being in 1840, because it does seem rather unlikely that she would return to check on Barnabas every year, blah blah blah and all that jazz. Not to mention that they just put her there to play the same role that she played in 1897, basically annoying Barnabas and getting in the way of what he was trying to accomplish.

What I DID like about it was the conclusion, when Angelique gets shot, because I think it shows a bit of brilliance on the writers part, if they truly did connect point A to point B and figure out that it would be a good conclusion for their overall storyarc. If they had've returned to 1971 after 1841PT and brought Angelique, it would've shot that all to hell, so I'm kinda glad that DS ended where it did with respect to that point. From a writers point of view, it makes great sense to tie up the Barnabas/Angelique storyline the way they did. Their relationship was about obsession until the end, when they both realized that they were in the wrong and finally got their crap straight.
Title: Re: A Woman Scorned - The Great Angelique/Barnabas/Josette Affair
Post by: loril54 on July 13, 2007, 04:05:30 PM
It would have been strange for Angelliique to come back again.  I remember all those years ago when Barn said those words about Angelique, I said how dumb.   I always said what a waste and what was the show all about.  I slso felt less  for Barnabas, why why why,  was he that dumb.  ???

How can a man say that he loves someone that distroyed his whole family.  Maybe he had flipped out because he was cured. How could he have hurt Julia.  He could plead temporary insanity, then Julia could treat him.
Title: Re: A Woman Scorned - The Great Angelique/Barnabas/Josette Affair
Post by: Nancy on July 13, 2007, 04:55:50 PM
And when she turned him into a vampire, that was just done out of the spirit of hatred and revenge in the heat of the moment. This same situation has happened a lot throughout history, and probably in many of your lives, when you decide to do something in the heat of the moment, and then after you've thought about it, wish you could fix it and take it back.

The worst thing I ever did to an about to be ex-boyfriend was put vaseline on the toilet seat.  And, no, I wasn't sorry even later. >:D Immature on my part, yes, but not violent.  Since this was a New York bathroom, there was no possibility of his being able to slide off and fall on the floor and hit his head. No room!

Seriously though, since I can understand Barn's murderous ways and still love the character, Angelique fans can still love their witch even when she makes a child ill.  The love between Barn and Ang was pure lust.  The chemistry between them was amazing.

Nancy
Title: Re: A Woman Scorned - The Great Angelique/Barnabas/Josette Affair
Post by: Sunny_Collins on July 13, 2007, 07:06:15 PM
There is no excuse for harming a child, no matter how well you rationalize your reasons! Barnabas should have realized that if she was capable of hurting Sarah on a whim, then curing her just as suddenly, that she was selfish and might even turn on him, no matter how much she loved him.

And when she turned him into a vampire, that was just done out of the spirit of hatred and revenge in the heat of the moment. This same situation has happened a lot throughout history, and probably in many of your lives, when you decide to do something in the heat of the moment, and then after you've thought about it, wish you could fix it and take it back.

But this wasn't some petty revenge. Angelique had to actually make him die before he could become a vampire. I don't think killing the man you claim to love would endear him to you.

Spoiler:

As for Barnabas's 1840 confession, IMHO, he couldn't have meant what he said. It's too difficult to believe that he could love a woman who cursed his family, causing all sorts of tragedies, setting off an entire chain of events that would completely transform his very existence, and oh, there's that little matter that she killed him in order for the vampire curse to work.

Seriously though, since I can understand Barn's murderous ways and still love the character, Angelique fans can still love their witch even when she makes a child ill.

Very well said. If we can love Barnabas after all the terrible things he's done, Angelique is no acception for those who like her.
Title: Re: A Woman Scorned - The Great Angelique/Barnabas/Josette Affair
Post by: Josette on July 14, 2007, 07:15:03 AM
But this wasn't some petty revenge. Angelique had to actually make him die before he could become a vampire. I don't think killing the man you claim to love would endear him to you.

However, at the time she cursed him, she thought she was dying, so there was no need to worry about endearing him.  And, once she survived, she tried to cure him, to keep it from happening.  And, in a moment of extreme emotion, one doesn't normally thing too logically.  She had just been shot and thought she was dying, so she lashed out with the curse.
Title: Re: A Woman Scorned - The Great Angelique/Barnabas/Josette Affair
Post by: Misty on July 14, 2007, 11:33:59 PM
I think it was Nancy who said that the relationship between Barn and Angelique was pure lust. I have to agree partially with that. Angelique HAD to be more exciting than Josette, who was no doubt raised "properly". I also think that Barn had to repress his infatuation with Angelique for the sake of the family to a point where it became a way of life.

He didn't turn to Angelique when Josette died, however. By this time they were enemies. But I think that repressed feeling was always there no matter what chaos Angelique caused. It just seems to me that Josette was the perfect bride for Barn, socially speaking, but Angelique was the passionate one. Too bad she couldn't settle for the role of mistress!!!! Fat chance! :-
                                                                     Misty
                                                                         
Title: Re: A Woman Scorned - The Great Angelique/Barnabas/Josette Affair
Post by: Brandon Collins on July 15, 2007, 05:06:02 PM
I agree with what Josette said about Angelique cursing Barnabas, and how she thought that she was dying at the time. If she wasn't going to live, what did she care how he spent the rest of his life?

And again, as for Barnabas' confession, a number of things could've been behind that.

1) He wanted to make Angelique feel better in her last few moments by telling her that he really loved her, even if he didn't really mean it.
2) He was crazy as a result of not having the curse anymore, like someone else said. A fun option.
3) He really meant it.

And it doesn't matter what they had done to each other in the past. People make stupid and illogical decisions all the time. I mean, look at Quentin. He dropped Beth like a bad disease and alll-of-a-sudden decided that he was in love with Amanda. Like THAT should've even happened. So if Quentin can do that, Barnabas can certainly do it to.

Let's face it, stranger things have happened in the real world. I mean, I don't think we can honestly say whether or not Barnabas felt and meant what he said to Angelique in her final moments, but I don't have anything to prove otherwise. I mean, sure she tortured his family through countless time trips and in the present, but who cares? Andrea Yates drowned her children, but her husband forgave her because they claimed that she was mentally ill. Watch Oprah or Montel or any other show like that at any given time and you might catch one of those people who was brutally attacked and left for dead by someone, but they've chosen to forgive them of their sins. So who's to say that Trask shooting Angelique didn't make Barnabas realize that everything she had put him through really meant nothing compared to the love he felt for her?

Not to mention the fact that, rationally, one could blame it all on Barnabas in the first place, since he's the one that began the little tryst with Angelique anyway.
Title: Re: A Woman Scorned - The Great Angelique/Barnabas/Josette Affair
Post by: loril54 on July 15, 2007, 05:38:57 PM
I realize that once KLS left the show no more Josette.  Then there was Roxanne, oh well.  I know we are not talking much about Julia, but can you imagine a Julia /Angelique/ Barnabas now that would have been interesting.

Angelique was using Barnabas to get her means to move up in the world.  She was pissed that Barnabas wasn't going to be her meal ticket.  Even after Sky, who did she go back to Barnabas. She didn't think of dumping Sky for Barnabas when she was happy and had the things that she needed.

Why didn't she turn Sky into a Vampire.  Maybe she couldn't do it.

Title: Re: A Woman Scorned - The Great Angelique/Barnabas/Josette Affair
Post by: adamsgirl on July 15, 2007, 06:16:16 PM
I can't agree with Loril's assessment whatsoever. Barnabas was no meal ticket to Angelique. Sure, it was convenient that he had position and money, but remember -- Spoiler:
Joshua disinherited Barnabas upon his announcement he would marry Angelique. In fact, even when Joshua tried to pay Angelique off to leave town, quite a substantial amount of money, she turned him down. She did, however, trick Joshua into thinking she would take the money, but she had her reasons for doing that.



As for whether Barnabas meant what he said in 1840, he surely did! It was to Julia he first confessed that after all this time, after all they'd been through, he finally realized he loved Angelique. Don't forget, too, that -- Spoiler:
Angelique actually died before Barnabas told her he loved her. He said it, but she was already dead.



Another point to be made here is, no matter how many times Barnabas tried, he invariably had to turn to Angelique for help with whatever he was doing. Her price, always, was his love -- his return to her. He was loath to do it, but again and again, he'd capitulate. Bottom line for me is, Angelique was always there for him, and he finally realized it. In 1840, Spoiler:
she finally helped Barnabas with absolutely no strings attached. This was irresistible to Barnabas. He could finally see her as the woman she was and not the witch.
Title: Re: A Woman Scorned - The Great Angelique/Barnabas/Josette Affair
Post by: Gothick on July 15, 2007, 09:40:09 PM
Hi Adamsgirl,

Spoiler:
My interrpetation of that scene where Joshua offered Angelique the cash to get outta town was very different from how you saw it.  I thought she had every intention of getting as far away from C'port once she had taken care of her business in the Eagle Hill Cemetery.

Her arrival in the Secret Room just in time for Barnabas' rising was really classic Angelique.  As dear Nicholas pointed out on more than one occasion, she really could be unbelievably incompetent at getting a simple job done.  Just my two drachmae.


I've been re-watching some of the 1840 shows where the writers sort of play with a Julia/Barnabas/Angelique triangle.  It's kind of too bad that they did this at a time when the plot was lurching literally from pillar to post, so the character moments are quick and sometimes sketchy, and I still can't take Angelique's "reform" very seriously.  But it's all we've got and it's a treat to revisit some of these scenes again.

G.
Title: Re: A Woman Scorned - The Great Angelique/Barnabas/Josette Affair
Post by: Miranda on July 16, 2007, 02:01:03 AM
I think that Angelique is Barnabas's soulmate, but that he was not able to love her fully until he realized she was capable of selfless acts in 1840.  I think he always cared for Angelique on some level but that he also sincerely loved Josette. I think Barnabas was in a sense afraid of the passionate side of his nature that Angelique brought out in him, and indeed repressed a lot of what he felt for her as he admitted in 1840.  It is indeed a shame that Angelique was taken from Barnabas at just the point in their relationship when most of the baggage between them had been resolved, but who knows, maybe Angelique found a way back to Barnabas in 1971...well, we B & A fans can hope...
Title: Re: A Woman Scorned - The Great Angelique/Barnabas/Josette Affair
Post by: IluvBarnabas on July 16, 2007, 03:22:01 AM
I just could never buy that declaration of love on Barnabas' part for Angelique in 1840.....I had been enjoying the storyline up to that point. It seemed to me too much of a quick-fix on the writers since they were wrapping up the storyline. It's almost as if they said, "hey let's have Barnabas decide Angelique was his true love and be done with it," completely ignoring their long, torturous, destructive history together.

Barnabas had been so obsessed with Josette all throughout the centuries, leading many of us to believe she was indeed the love of his life....and the writers decided to throw that away on a silly, contrite plot-device. Silly.
Title: Re: A Woman Scorned - The Great Angelique/Barnabas/Josette Affair
Post by: Sunny_Collins on July 16, 2007, 06:39:18 AM
Another point to be made here is, no matter how many times Barnabas tried, he invariably had to turn to Angelique for help with whatever he was doing. Her price, always, was his love -- his return to her. He was loath to do it, but again and again, he'd capitulate. Bottom line for me is, Angelique was always there for him, and he finally realized it. In 1840, Spoiler:
she finally helped Barnabas with absolutely no strings attached. This was irresistible to Barnabas. He could finally see her as the woman she was and not the witch.

As you point out, her help always came at a price, that Barnabas love her. IMO, that's emotional blackmail. Time and again she said she wanted Barnabas to love her by his own free will, but then she would turn around and threaten not to help him if he didn't promise to love her.

Spoiler:

I never saw her actions in 1840 as selfless. Yes, she helped him with nothing to gain, but she was still trying to prove to him that she could be unselfish, so that he would love her. And in that sense, she had everything to gain. JMHO, though.  :)
Title: Re: A Woman Scorned - The Great Angelique/Barnabas/Josette Affair
Post by: loril54 on July 16, 2007, 01:14:55 PM
After 1795 when they were trying to make Barnabas good. Angelique used Barnabas' love for his family and friends to get his love. Also now that I think about it also in 1795. Angelique knew what to use to get her way. If Angelique helped Barnabas without that, she had some otoher irons in the fire. Quentin and Sky are two examples.  But when they fell apart she always said well there is Barnabas.

There is a difference between doing someting because it is right and doing somethng because you are going to get something in returen.  If you do amends, do you expect to get something in return?
Title: Re: A Woman Scorned - The Great Angelique/Barnabas/Josette Affair
Post by: Brandon Collins on July 17, 2007, 01:25:14 AM
I never saw her actions in 1840 as selfless. Yes, she helped him with nothing to gain, but she was still trying to prove to him that she could be unselfish, so that he would love her. And in that sense, she had everything to gain. JMHO, though.  :)

That's completely open to interpretation. I really do see your point here. I mean, Angelique was never selfless at all throughout her history, as we saw it, so we're just all of a sudden to believe that she's going to BE selfless for the FIRST TIME EVER just to prove something to Barnabas?

But, I'll ignore that little inconvienent point for the sake of the story, just beacuse I still think that in terms of B&A's overall storyline, the 1840 stuff wrapped it up nicely.

As for what Lori said, I do think that when someone makes amends that some, not all, expect something in return for doing that.  Usually in society, as children and then even as adults, we are rewarded for doing good things whether or not we want to, and whether or not we were supposed to do those good things.

Look at that guy who jumped on the guy having a seizure in a NYC subway. He was rewarded A LOT, from people like Donald Trump, Ellen DeGeneres, and even Oprah I think, as well as others, for something that he didn't have to do but still did.

And at many jobs we are given bonuses for doing paperwork or other things that are already a part of our job descriptions. Many times, these are called "incentives". So I think making "amends" as it were, strongly depends on the person's mindset before the action, and whether or not that person expects to be rewarded for what he or she has done.
Title: Re: A Woman Scorned - The Great Angelique/Barnabas/Josette Affair
Post by: arashi on July 17, 2007, 06:41:16 AM
Jumping in a little late to the discussion here, but here's my two cents.

Barnabas even in 1795 with his "modern" attitudes and seemingly gentle nature was not really that good of a guy. Sure he treated Ben well, looked after his family and was a nice 180 from the stodgy puritanism of his Father and the maniacal Reverend Trask he did have quite the list of sins stacked against him. Namely was his affair with Angelique, from the conversation he had with Angelique I thought it was pretty apparent that he had an affair with her while he was courting Josette. Sure social attitudes of the upper class at the time and all that, but if he really was in love with Josette he wouldn't have dallied about with her maid then gone and played the gentleman to her mistress. Even after he was engaged to Josette and she had arrived at the house he had a hard time fighting his physical attraction to Angelique.

I think Barnabas loved Josette, but somehow I think he held her up on a pedestal and saw her as something fragile and completely innocent. I can't quite get the wording right on what I'm trying to say here. Josette was a niave and sheltered and surely she and Barnabas would not have shared the kind of passion B & A had. Let's say none of the supernatural stuff went on and B&J got happily married as planned. Even then, after a while, I think Barnabas would have turned to Angelique for the kind of carnal passion that he was certainly not going to get from Josette.

That said I really do not see Barnabas and Angelique as a loving couple at all. I do not see Barnabas actually loving Angelique at all. He never ever showed any sincere signs of it EVER save that one moment after she died in 1840. Back in 1795 after he had married her he told her he would always love Josette, not her. He used Angelique for his own physical gratification and time and time again demonstrated that he didn't think of her beyond that.

Angelique on the other hand was quite the fool for believing that her affair with Barnabas was going to be her stepping stone to high society. I think in the beginning she may have loved Barnabas or thought she was in love with him. Later after he rejected her her pride couldn't take it and she sought out means to MAKE him hers despite her insistence that she wanted Barnabas to come to her of his own free will. She made it so he had nowhere to turn for comfort save her. That's not free will at all. Maybe she convinced herself that it was. Warning bells should have gone off for Barnabas the MOMENT she told him she would cure Sarah if he married her. What kind of bargain was that? If he didn't agree would she let his little sister die? If she truly did love him she would have brewed the tea and cured Sarah selflessly. (Save the fact that she was the cause of Sarah's "illness" in the first place.)

There's still the little scene where Ben comes into her room and sees Angelique modeling a hat she stole from Josette in the mirror. She tells him that everything Josette has she will one day have too. That's not a declaration of love for Barnabas, that's a declaration of jealousy on the class difference between she and Josette and she sees Barnabas as the tool to make her equal to those she has served. She may have thought she was killing two birds with one stone, by marrying Barnabas she netted her "Love" and made herself a Lady at the same time. The only problem she didn't see is that she would forever be looked down upon by those in her "circle" if she had married Barnabas. Despite all the finery she draped herself in others would never see her as a "Lady" but only a hired hand that had somehow moved herself up the social ladder.

Now Barnabas chased after Josette throughout the series for the most part, the problem is he was chasing after his image of Josette after 172 years without her. His ideals of her character and such were undoubtedly raised to such an unattainable level in a real human being, she became almost like a Saint to him and as such no real woman would be able to replace her, and yet he was willing to try so many times just to have her again. He remembered her as a beacon of purity and in his tainted state he was looking for something pure to cling to and remind him of his humanity.

So all in all I don't see Barnabas & Josette or Barnabas & Angelique as good pairings in the long run at all.
Title: Re: A Woman Scorned - The Great Angelique/Barnabas/Josette Affair
Post by: loril54 on July 17, 2007, 07:36:57 AM
Look at that guy who jumped on the guy having a seizure in a NYC subway. He was rewarded A LOT, from people like Donald Trump, Ellen DeGeneres, and even Oprah I think, as well as others, for something that he didn't have to do but still did.

If you do something good. Money or a reward is nice. But you should do it because you know it is the right thing to do.

If you do good things, good things will come back to you.

Title: Re: A Woman Scorned - The Great Angelique/Barnabas/Josette Affair
Post by: michael c on July 18, 2007, 01:50:44 AM
did barnabas love the women he was involved with or was it more infatuation than love?

it's very hard to get a read on his relationship with josette because we actually only see a few episodes of them together before angelique takes over and then we never see them in a normal state again.he puts josette on a pedestal but other than being pretty we don't learn much about her.

then as barnabas begins to drift through time and space he conveiniently runs into one woman after another who looks exactly like josette and falls for them instantly before he knows anything about them.is that "love" or infatuation.

as for roxanne he was smitten the minute he saw her lying on the slab in a bullet bra.she couldn't even speak for heavens sake.

as for vicki it starts out as infatuation(and envy)but after 1795 he does do a few supremely unselfish things in her regaurd so she's a tough call.
Title: Re: A Woman Scorned - The Great Angelique/Barnabas/Josette Affair
Post by: arashi on July 18, 2007, 04:37:15 AM
That's the word I was looking for - infatuation.
Title: Re: A Woman Scorned - The Great Angelique/Barnabas/Josette Affair
Post by: Gothick on July 18, 2007, 04:11:28 PM
Arashi, this is a really great exposition of the emotional/sexual dynamics involved in the Angelique/Barnabas/Josette triangle.  Excellent work!

I think it is interesting to compare the pre-1795 version of Barnabas' romance with Josette with the way the relationship is depicted as we see the events unfolding during 1795 and then how it plays out afterwards.  When I finally got to see all the original 1967 Barnabas episodes in order, I remember being very disconcerted by just how creepy Barnabas' obsessive need for Josette seemed.  There's a scene soon after Maggie has taken up "residence" in the OH where she's been dolled up in Josie drag and Barn is grinning like the cat that copped the cream and ranting on and on about how she will be his very own living Josette doll come to life again... it gives me gooseflesh to watch.  I actually find it one of the most disturbing things they ever did on DS--perhaps THE most disturbing.  I find it much more unsettling than the Cyrus/Maggie kidnapping scenario later on in 1970 even though by the time of the latter story they could be somewhat more sexually explicit (but only somewhat).  The ruthlessness with which Barn pursues erasing Maggie's own identity and substituting a weirdly distilled simulacrum of Josette's own personality is very creepy.

Thinking about the series as a whole, Josette comes across almost as a blank-check character to me.  I'd never thought about this before, but I guess the energy of KLS' own personality in the various forms and manifestations of the character helped give her a phantasmal unity that otherwise isn't really there.  How do you reconcile the original version of Josette as a kind of spectral guardian of the Collins family with the image we get from Barnabas' own distorted memories (I do love the scene late in 1967 where Julia forces Barnabas to admit that Josette in real life never did return his love, even though this was almost immediately changed with the 1795 "flashback"), and then subsequent "incarnations" in later storylines?  Will the real Josette Collins please stand up?

cheers, G.
Title: Re: A Woman Scorned - The Great Angelique/Barnabas/Josette Affair
Post by: Brandon Collins on July 18, 2007, 04:32:01 PM
Not to be nit picky or anything, but this plays into the discussion as a whole.

Gothick said that Barnabas told Julia that Josette never returned his love. Well, what if he meant that she never returned his love the way he wanted her to? I mean, quite a few have mentioned here that perhaps what Barnabas was seeking from Angelique was the womanly passion that Josette seemed to have lacked because she was so "fragile" and such. So maybe not loving him back meant that she didn't love him as fiercely as he loved her, or as hungrily as he loved her.

(Of course, we can probably surmise that this was just something the writers wrote and then decided to back track on like so many other plot points throughout the series, but what if that's what he really meant?)
Title: Re: A Woman Scorned - The Great Angelique/Barnabas/Josette Affair
Post by: loril54 on July 19, 2007, 12:27:56 AM
I think before they got to 1795 in  the story they were just bloing smoke. Did they ever really think that they would go back in time and visit Pre Vampire Barnabas. I don't think so.  With Barn and Angelique it was just SEX. With Barn and Josette it was his ideal of what his proper wife should be. Just think if Josette was the maid, and Angelique was the heiress, how things might have changed. Would Barn still want Josette if she was the docile Maid.
Title: Re: A Woman Scorned - The Great Angelique/Barnabas/Josette Affair
Post by: michael c on July 19, 2007, 12:39:19 AM
i agree that josette is something of a "blank check" character in her actual manifestation as opposed to someone's ideal of her.

during the 1795 storyline she's only around for a few days before she gets put under a spell and then spends the rest of the storyline under some sort of influence.

the rest of the characters are very well defined for a story that only lasted about four months.even "secondary" characters like abigail and ben are very well thought out.we actually know very little about who josette is.

p.s. i love gothick's use of the phrase "phantasmal unity". ;)
Title: Re: A Woman Scorned - The Great Angelique/Barnabas/Josette Affair
Post by: Nancy on July 19, 2007, 05:32:46 PM
And at many jobs we are given bonuses for doing paperwork or other things that are already a part of our job descriptions. Many times, these are called "incentives". So I think making "amends" as it were, strongly depends on the person's mindset before the action, and whether or not that person expects to be rewarded for what he or she has done.

Yes, workers often gripe they don't get any "thanks" for their work but the paycheck is the return you're supposed to get as the thanks.  Bonuses are incentives, sure.

On a totally different note, when reading these excellent posts on this subject, I wanted to add that it was always difficult for me to understand Angelique's obsession to get back at Barnabas.   She was hurt, sure, and it's a natural initial reaction to want to return the hurt.  But this going on and on for decades and even centuries is hard to relate to in any way.  I don't know about others here but it's difficult for me to stay that deeply angry with someone even if the person has really screwed me over.  It's so much work to keep that level of anger up, not to mention how unhealthy it is emotionally.    And to think constantly of new ways of getting at someone is more than my addled brain could possibly handle.  I won't go back and allow myself to get hurt a second time by that person but I certainly won't continue for centuries to make sure my curse is working.

Nancy
Title: Re: A Woman Scorned - The Great Angelique/Barnabas/Josette Affair
Post by: arashi on July 20, 2007, 01:02:55 AM
Gothick, thanks for the comments! I too think Barnabas' obsession with Josette in 1967 is damn creepy. It's true that later on in the show they could get away with more, but it's what's implied that makes it worse. Look how much James Hall made everyone's skin crawl as the first Willie Loomis. (Well mine anyhow.)

Barnabas at the time of his release in 1967 was a monster, pure and simple, and I love him is those episodes. There was hardly a shred of humanity left within him. He wants Maggie to fit the distorted image of Josette that he remembers and when she can't he's unbelievably cruel to her.

If they hadn't made the jump back to 1795 and made Barnabas a sympathetic character I wonder where he would have ended up?
Title: Re: A Woman Scorned - The Great Angelique/Barnabas/Josette Affair
Post by: Mysterious Benefactor on July 23, 2007, 08:18:14 PM
Look how much James Hall made everyone's skin crawl as the first Willie Loomis. (Well mine anyhow.)

Mine as well. He most probably could never have been able to bring a tenth of the vulnerability that John Karlen brought to Willie, but Hall played the sleaze to perfection.

Quote
If they hadn't made the jump back to 1795 and made Barnabas a sympathetic character I wonder where he would have ended up?

As dust in his coffin or as dust blowing in the wind. If Barn had continued to be as depraved as he was in 1967, there would have been nowhere to go but eventual destruction.