DARK SHADOWS FORUMS

General Discussions => Current Talk Archive => Current Talk '24 I => Current Talk '07 I => Topic started by: MagnusTrask on February 15, 2007, 05:08:46 AM

Title: Did they or didn't they? (Was Re: Episode #0496)
Post by: MagnusTrask on February 15, 2007, 05:08:46 AM: From Caption This! - Year 2:
Quote from: IluvBarnabas on February 15, 2007, 03:57:10 AM
Cassandra: It was an honest mistake, Roger, please don't take it personally.

Roger: How can I NOT?! You called out Barnabas' name while we were finally making love!

I get the impression that that never happened!
Title: Re: Did they or didn't they?
Post by: Nelson Collins on February 15, 2007, 08:11:16 PM: Quote from: MagnusTrask on February 15, 2007, 05:08:46 AM
I get the impression that that never happened!
I wondered that too. I know Roger did say that they had never taken a honeymoon. I can't imagine Roger being sucha a wuss that he would have done the deed at least once in all the time they were married.
Title: Re: Did they or didn't they?
Post by: Mysterious Benefactor on February 15, 2007, 09:33:23 PM: It's not necessarily a matter of Roger being a wuss. Remember that Cassandra was drugging Roger - possibly not just to keep him enthralled but perhaps also to avoid such things. ;)
Title: Re: Did they or didn't they?
Post by: Alondra on February 15, 2007, 11:30:51 PM: Quote from: Mysterious Benefactor on February 15, 2007, 09:33:23 PM
It's not necessarily a matter of Roger being a wuss. Remember that Cassandra was drugging Roger - possibly not just to keep him enthralled but perhaps also to avoid such things. ;)

That's right. She was slipping him a mickey every night. I think they never did the deed, and she was able to avoid that honeymoon by [spoiler]faking spraining her ankle[/spoiler]

Quote from: Nelson Collins on February 15, 2007, 08:11:16 PM
I can't imagine Roger being such a wuss that he would have done the deed at least once in all the time they were married.

I can. ;)

Alondra
Title: Re: Did they or didn't they? (Was Re: Episode #0496)
Post by: michael c on February 18, 2007, 01:31:48 AM: i seem to recall a scene towards the end of the storyline where roger and cassandra are playing chess.

roger,becoming increasingly weary of his distant wife's coldness,implies that indeed the marriage was never consummated.i can believe it.

b.t.w. i always felt that the writers used roger as a convenient "device" in order to get cassandra into collinwood.the storyline wasn't really about them at all and they actually shared few scenes for a married couple.i was somewhat disappointed by that.
Title: Re: Did they or didn't they? (Was Re: Episode #0496)
Post by: quentincollins on February 18, 2007, 06:08:45 AM: I always thought of Roger as being discreetly gay anyways .
He shows no intrest in Laura when she 's around . He married her after the hit and run accident . It seemed to me like he married her to [spoiler]keep her quiet , and also possibly he wanted her becasue she "belonged" to Burke .[/spoiler] Really , I always though that Roger had a thing for Burke . Some of their scenes in the first year are pretty slashy .
Angelique used magic to get him to marry her , and their relationship is pretty distant . I can't beleive Angelique would consent to having sex with Roger , she seems very picky about her partners . Barnabas , anytime , anywhere . Sky , of course . Even Quentin I can believe she may have slept with . But Roger ? No way.
And then once Cassangelique is gone Roger shows no sexual /romantic intrest inanyone . And of course LE was openly gay , so his persona does bleed over into Roger somewhat . At the very least Roger was metrosexual before the concept was popularized .
Title: Re: Did they or didn't they? (Was Re: Episode #0496)
Post by: IluvBarnabas on February 18, 2007, 03:16:37 PM: Was Louis really gay?
Title: Re: Did they or didn't they? (Was Re: Episode #0496)
Post by: quentincollins on February 18, 2007, 03:37:05 PM: Yes, in the later years of his life Luis Edmonds was openly gay . From what I 've read he was open with his castmate friends even back during DS , hosting parties at his weekend home with his partner at the time . Joan Bennett was a frequent houseguest of Louis and his partner .
Title: Re: Did they or didn't they? (Was Re: Episode #0496)
Post by: Nelson Collins on February 18, 2007, 03:56:50 PM: Quote from: quentincollins on February 18, 2007, 06:08:45 AM
I always thought of Roger as being discreetly gay anyways .
Heh, that might go some way in explaining why he drank so much. He'd done the family duty and pounded out a puppy ...

[spoiler]I guess David's resemblance to Daniel and Jamison kind of puts paid to suspicion that David was Burke's son that was hinted at the time [/spoiler]

so Roger is seen to be a "fine upstanding Collins" but feels he cannot act on his desires...?
Title: Re: Did they or didn't they? (Was Re: Episode #0496)
Post by: michael c on February 18, 2007, 06:15:51 PM: even though "such things" were not openly discussed in those days(and certainly not written into a soap opera)it is possible to read a gay subtext into the character of roger.perhaps it's more something louis edmonds brought to the role than how the character was written.perhaps it's a combination of the two.

still there are alot of "cliches" with roger.these are all of course stereotypes but there's a foppishness to him,he drinks heavily,he has a bitchiness to him,a catty relationship with his sister,unsuccessful relationships with women.

i never really thought about him having a "thing" for burke but in his obsessivness towards him it's possible to read that into it.

i remember finding "parallel time roger" to have a particularly gay subtext to him.his infatuation with angelique didn't seem sexual but more the type of thing gay men often develop for glamorous,bitchy women.

again i know these are all "cliches" but let's say it takes one to know one. ;)
Title: Re: Did they or didn't they? (Was Re: Episode #0496)
Post by: IluvBarnabas on February 18, 2007, 11:59:23 PM: I could maybe buy Roger being gay but I don't believe he was ever attracted to Burke, at least not after the whole [spoiler]manslaughter mess and Burke being sent to prison.[/spoiler] They hated each other's guts from that moment on.
Title: Re: Did they or didn't they? (Was Re: Episode #0496)
Post by: quentincollins on February 19, 2007, 03:19:22 AM: I always had my own idea of how the Burke/Roger falling out went down :
Roger made a fumbling drunken pass , Burke rejected him rudely , but wrote the whole thing off as a drunken misunderstanding . A spurned Roger accepted Laura's intrest just to [spoiler]take her away from Burke, and when the drunk driving hit and run happed , Roger still vengedul , framed Burke to save his own skin .[/spoiler]
Sure Roger hated Burke , but there's a thin line y'know.
Title: Re: Did they or didn't they? (Was Re: Episode #0496)
Post by: MagnusTrask on February 19, 2007, 07:31:15 AM: I don't like reading too much into someone's manner, because it assumes people fall into simple predictable categories, and I hate that idea.

The character of Roger could just have been hetero and stuffy, or gay but in denial. Ultra-correct Roger would not have had a clue about it himself, or would have supressed it to whatever extent is possible, by force of will, as a matter of misguided pride, considering his obsession for "correctness", and the times.

PT Roger? Gay as all get-out, whatever that means. Maybe not Joshua.

Sometimes I think I have too many opinions on too many things.
Title: Re: Did they or didn't they? (Was Re: Episode #0496)
Post by: quentincollins on February 19, 2007, 02:26:01 PM: I agree that PT Roger was all out gay . Check out hose ascots lol !
And I really think of Joshua as being straight . I found his relationship with Naomi in late 1795 to be touching . I also though after Naomi's death that Natalie would 've made a very interesting second wife for Joshua.
Edward ? He seemed pretty smitten with Kitty .
Daniel ? Don't really know there , I guess that could go either way .
Title: Re: Did they or didn't they? (Was Re: Episode #0496)
Post by: Alondra on February 19, 2007, 06:06:32 PM: Quote from: IluvBarnabas on February 18, 2007, 03:16:37 PM
Was Louis really gay?

Yes, he was, in Craig Hamrick's book "Barnabas and Company" he tells us who was gay. And he also wrote a book about Louis Edmonds called "Big Lou." I haven't read that book but it probably deals with this subject.

I don't know about Roger's character being discreetly gay but there is some reason why I never imagined him with Julia when people would bring up the subject of who besides Barnabas would have been a good man for Julia. I've always thought of the professor. Someone on one of the lists said, what about Roger? and I thought to myself why did that never occur to me? He lived right there in the same house so why not? Maybe because somewhere in the back of my mind I was thinking that in spite of two marriages he really was gay.

As for parallel time Roger, no doubt about it. Maybe the fascination with Angelique was not a sexual attraction, but he did say he had loved her from the first. I dunno.

Joshua, Edward and Daniel, no, I don't get the same vibes. Joshua was a male chauvinist but not gay. Edward seemed to have a genuine attraction to Kitty. Daniel was portrayed as a very old man (which I could never understand since he was probably no older than 55. If he was around 10 in 1795, he'd be 55 in 1840, surely no more than 57 at the very most so why do they treat him like some old man, as old as Ben?

Roger and Burke? No way. Burke would have flattened him.

Alondra
Title: Re: Did they or didn't they? (Was Re: Episode #0496)
Post by: CastleBee on February 19, 2007, 07:36:17 PM: Quote from: IluvBarnabas on February 18, 2007, 11:59:23 PM
I could maybe buy Roger being gay but I don't believe he was ever attracted to Burke, at least not after the whole [spoiler]manslaughter mess and Burke being sent to prison.[/spoiler] They hated each other's guts from that moment on.
Yes, but, indifference, not hate, is the opposite of love. I can see the attraction being one sided and going on in Roger's mind long before the accident. I always got the biggest kick out of Roger and I can remember thinking of the character as a kind of throwback to those bored, snobby rich guys who were so often in films of the 30's & 40's. Of course, as I grew up I realized that those Noel Coward types weren't simply rich, sarcastic and urbane. Yes, I can easily see Roger as gay but, of course, in denial¢â‚¬¦or at least not wanting to let the world in on it. Marrying Laura would have served two purposes - revenge and protection incase Burke decided to out him. If the show were running today I could almost see that being the way it would play out.
Title: Re: Did they or didn't they? (Was Re: Episode #0496)
Post by: MagnusTrask on February 19, 2007, 11:39:55 PM: I still can't get over the fact that I started a thread about what kind of sex Roger likes to have, without realizing it....
Title: Re: Did they or didn't they? (Was Re: Episode #0496)
Post by: Mysterious Benefactor on February 19, 2007, 11:43:57 PM: Quote from: MagnusTrask on February 19, 2007, 11:39:55 PM
I still can't get over the fact that I started a thread about what kind of sex Roger likes to have, without realizing it....

As I've posted a few times, I find it very hard to imagine Roger having any sort of sex with anyone else because he's way too in love with himself. ;) I'm actually more than willing to believe that David was a product of immaculate conception. :D Either that or in vitro fertilization came to Collinsport and was successful there far earlier than it was in the rest of the world. [wink2]
Title: Re: Did they or didn't they? (Was Re: Episode #0496)
Post by: IluvBarnabas on February 19, 2007, 11:57:34 PM: I remember Laura saying [spoiler]she had competition for Roger's affections and that was with Roger himself.[/spoiler]

You make a good point, MB, Roger did seem to love himself more than anyone else, at least during the first year of the show. He mellowed out a lot during the show, though he still held some shred of that stubborn, holier-than-thou rich guy he had been now and then throughout the series.
Title: Re: Did they or didn't they? (Was Re: Episode #0496)
Post by: Raineypark on February 20, 2007, 03:52:18 AM: Quote from: Mysterious Benefactor on February 19, 2007, 11:43:57 PM
Either that or in vitro fertilization came to Collinsport and was successful there far earlier than it was in the rest of the world. [wink2]

I'd buy that. There's something about poor little David that just cries out "Petri Dish"! ::)
Title: Re: Did they or didn't they? (Was Re: Episode #0496)
Post by: MagnusTrask on February 20, 2007, 10:41:26 AM: Quote from: Raineypark on February 20, 2007, 03:52:18 AM
There's something about poor little David that just cries out "Petri Dish"! ::)

Why drag Dick Van Dyke into this?! Sorry.
Title: Re: Did they or didn't they? (Was Re: Episode #0496)
Post by: CastleBee on February 20, 2007, 01:21:44 PM: Quote from: Mysterious Benefactor on February 19, 2007, 11:43:57 PM
I'm actually more than willing to believe that David was a product of immaculate conception.
I'd buy this idea myself - only on the flip side. After all, in the beginning anyway, David acted like he might have a 666 somewhere underneath those auburn locks. >:D
Title: Re: Did they or didn't they? (Was Re: Episode #0496)
Post by: loril54 on February 21, 2007, 02:15:14 AM: Quote from: Mysterious Benefactor on February 19, 2007, 11:43:57 PM
As I've posted a few times, I find it very hard to imagine Roger having any sort of sex with anyone else because he's way too in love with himself. ;) I'm actually more than willing to believe that David was a product of immaculate conception. :D Either that or in vitro fertilization came to Collinsport and was successful there far earlier than it was in the rest of the world. [wink2]

Where was Julia Hoffman, when Roger needed her. She could have done it at Wyndcliff. The immaculate conception. >:D She did a lot of new things.
Title: Re: Did they or didn't they? (Was Re: Episode #0496)
Post by: Mysterious Benefactor on February 26, 2007, 08:18:58 PM: Quote from: quentincollins on February 19, 2007, 02:26:01 PM
I agree that PT Roger was all out gay . Check out hose ascots lol !

We should probably be careful about reading something into the way characters are dressed that may not really be there. For example, ascots have mostly been used in films and TV shows to give a male character an air of sophistication. And, well, even Quentin is seen wearing them (as he is here in Ep #958):

(http://www.dsboards.com/images/ascot.jpg)
And I doubt many would think that even though he is, Quentin is anything but DS' most notorious womanizer. [wink2]
Title: Re: Did they or didn't they? (Was Re: Episode #0496)
Post by: Gothick on February 26, 2007, 10:27:32 PM: Ah, but Roger Collins wore HIS ascots "with a difference"!

I'm fascinated by the notion of (RT) Roger Collins as a closet homosexual. It would actually explain a lot about the character. In some ways he is very much in the vein of stereotypical "killer queens" in the more lurid 1950s paperback--the sort that came along in between Gore Vidal's "The city and the pillar" (1948) and John Rechy's "City of Night" (1963) (James Barr's "Quatrefoil" published in 1950, evokes the "twilight world" of closeted gay men of that time with a vivid clarity). I am thinking now particularly of the original concept of Roger as seen in the first year of the series. With Jason's appearance on the scene, Roger segues more into the snooty rural country club squire type--the kind who would characterize the rough trade his niece was dating as a "cheap, insufferable pig!" (lol) I always wondered whether Roger got written out of the Summer of 1970 storyline simply because the writers had run out of things for him to do. I would guess that the real reason is that Louis Edmonds was doing theatre and needed a break.

The gay man who desires the glamorous woman of wiles appears most obviously in Laura, but in All about Eve the character of Addison is the same, and I still find his scene where he claims "Eve Evil, little Miss Evil" for his very own unutterably delicious. In my younger days I found this scene just plain confusing because, like Eve herself, I couldn't imagine what Addison was actually planning to DO with her. Presumably, become a trophy wife who would put paid to those persistent rumors regarding his true nature.

Fascinating speculations in this thread...

G.
Title: Re: Did they or didn't they? (Was Re: Episode #0496)
Post by: michael c on February 27, 2007, 02:20:04 AM: the characters louis edmonds played in the historical time periods(joshua,edward)didn't give me that gay vibe.they just struck me as pompous blowhards.

the more i think about "parallel-time" roger the gayer he gets.i recall a scene where roger is talking to angelique's portrait about how they had laughed and made fun of all the guests after a party she had hosted.way gay. ::)
i wonder if this was something subversive on the writers' part.they couldn't ever write this into the storyline in 1970 but it could be coyly suggested.

that's really the way i read that character.
Title: Re: Did they or didn't they? (Was Re: Episode #0496)
Post by: Mysterious Benefactor on February 27, 2007, 04:35:09 AM: Quote from: Gothick on February 26, 2007, 10:27:32 PM
Ah, but Roger Collins wore HIS ascots "with a difference"!

Just to qualify, I'm not saying PTRoger couldn't be gay - I'm simply saying we probably shouldn't read something into a character purely based on the way they're dressed. Mode of dress is certainly used to define characters (there are some very insightful remarks from costume designer Rosalie Samplin Wallace in the '91 series' concordance regarding why she chose to dress certain characters the way she did), but it's but one way a show tries to convey the personalities of its characters. Though in PTRoger's case, there's plenty of other evidence that might support that theory. ;)