DS women as lovemakers.

[MagnusTrask]

What was the name of the mighty sword that Aristeide flashed around?  I remember he named his.  I also remember, it was curvey and he threatened people with it.

That was Bill Clinton, I think.

[Connie]

        
 

[Miranda]

Another thought just occured to me, in those bedroom scenes where they're kissing passionately, when he breaks away from her at last, he seems almost ashamed that he was kissing her.  I think he even apoligizes to her, but it's been awhile since I've watched 1795.  Anyone remember this?

I think when he pulls away he is ashamed of his reaction to Angelique, he even admits to her "I admit you are difficult to resist, I lost control of myself for a moment," so I think that does show that he was afraid/ashamed of the feelings Angelique brought out in him.....but the ironic part is that once all the hatred he felt for her was gone it had masked a lasting attraction that blossomed into love.

[BuzzH]

but the ironic part is that once all the hatred he felt for her was gone it had masked a lasting attraction that blossomed into love.

I have no problem w/the ending of 1840 where he admits to Angelique as she's dying that he DOES love her-there's such a thin line between love & hate that this is easy to believe, but for him to say that she was the ONLY one he loved, that I don't buy.  I think he loved both Angelique and Josette, equally but in different ways, and I think that's where the main conflict in his life always was.

Then of course there's Julia, I think in his own way he loved her too, but not as much as the other two, which is probably why he never returned her feelings for him.  I was just watching boxset 10 last night and they are getting ready to do the experiment and when Maggie goes missing, Julia offers to be the life force, but he refuses, and not just because he doesn't trust Jeff to run the experiment.  He's worried Julia might die during it.  That's got to qualify as SOMETHING like love, right?  

Not sure just how much he truly loved Vicki, was it love, or jealousy that Burke, then Jeff, got her?  Was she just the "unobtainable girl"?  The challenge he couldn't win?  Don't know...As for Roxanne, well, more than anything I think he was trying to convince himself he DIDN'T love Angelique in 1840 and Roxanne was his escape perhaps?

Just rambling now...LOL!  

[Barnabas'sBride]

I can buy into him still being attracted to Angelique in 1795 after their fling, but there's no way I can buy into his supposed "love" for her at the end of the series, after all that she's done to him and his family and loved ones.  I personally don't think he ever loved Angelique, he was just attracted to her and he paid for it. I believe he truly loved Josette, and I think he grew to love Victoria, especially when he let her go to be with Peter because he knew that was what she wanted. I think he came to love Julia, though in a different way, and valued their friendship. Those things help make it impossible for me to swallow him declaring his love for Angelique in 1840. It doesn't work for me and I see it as a writing blunder.

Julia99 - Julia as a virgin? I admit I've never thought about that, but looking over the course of the series, I can see how one could possibly come to that conclusion. I think it's safe to say that she likely dedicated her life to her career before becoming involved with Barnabas, so a relationship with someone is probably something that she never experienced.

[Midnite]

Another thought just occured to me, in those bedroom scenes where they're kissing passionately, when he breaks away from her at last, he seems almost ashamed that he was kissing her.  I think he even apoligizes to her, but it's been awhile since I've watched 1795.  Anyone remember this?

I think when he pulls away he is ashamed of his reaction to Angelique, he even admits to her "I admit you are difficult to resist, I lost control of myself for a moment," so I think that does show that he was afraid/ashamed of the feelings Angelique brought out in him.....

Hi, Miranda.  It's nice to see you.

He did apologize to Angelique and seemed ashamed that he got carried away (he turned his back to her... and actually, he walked so far into the corner when he turned away that it looks like he was giving himself a "time out," lol  ).

but the ironic part is that once all the hatred he felt for her was gone it had masked a lasting attraction that blossomed into love.

Masked a lasting attraction?  If he hadn't felt lust for Angelique, he would never have behaved as he did in Martinique and in the scene in the servants' quarters that BuzzH described.  I seriously question that he held onto any of that physical attraction when it's what set off the chain of events that led to her punishing him through the centuries.

Barnabas'Bride perfectly stated my feelings for what occurred at the end of 1840.  I question that he could get over Angelique's brand of punishment so easily.

[MagnusTrask]

no cold showers then, so a "time out" had to do.....

I think BC going for Angelique at the end had little to do with Martinique.    I don't think that short fling would create anything lasting.    I think it's all the grappling, and shared battles and nightmares over centuries, some on opposite sides, some together.    She's the only one who could understand the depraved side of him, as well as the better side.    Julia comes down on him the moment he even thinks about going out for blood.     Julia's right, but he needs comprehension not moral direction... he's got enough guilt already.

Angelique up until late 1840 understood only the negative part of him.  When she also came to understand the positive, that made her the most complete companion and confidant he'd ever had.    They were alike.    Plus, he probably remembered a few good moves that worked on Martinique, that he could pull out of mothballs.

[Barnabas'sBride]

I don't see Julia coming down on him for needing blood, at least not anymore than he comes down on himself various times in the show. She's horrified when he's turned back into a vampire, she's concerned for those he might hurt....but she's also concerned for him and horrified because she knows how horrified/miserable he is under the curse. In the end, she would stay beside him for the rest of her life if he was a vampire or not. She was willing to accept him as he was. She showed that time and time again. Julia comprehended Barnabas better than Angelique did, IMO.

Angelique should definitely understand the negative part of him. She created it. That's why I can't accept Barnabas coming to love her. She's responsible for that part of him - the part of him that he spends almost the entire series loathing. And, out of nowhere, he suddenly "loves" her? It just makes no sense to me. He has worked with her when forced to, but he never shows any signs through out the series that he feels anything close to love for her. And that makes sense to me, given all that she did to him and many, many other people he loved.

[BuzzH]

And, out of nowhere, he suddenly "loves" her? It just makes no sense to me.

I think the writers were simply trying to appease those fans that wanted these two together.  I've said it before and I'll say it again, Jonathan & Lara had the best onscreen "couple" chemistry on DS IMHO, & I think this is why so many fans wanted B & A together.  I also feel they were setting all of us up to accept the Bramwell/Catherine storyline/romance.  Let's remember that it was him seeing Bramwell & Catherine together in PT that caused him to think he loved Angelique.  Seeing his PT son w/a woman who was Angelique's clone, and seeing his strong love for her etc...got him thinking that he loved Angelique the way Bramwell loved Catherine.

[Barnabas'sBride]

I can see your point about 1841 PT and it could be true. But Bramwell and Catherine were not Barnabas and Angelique and they had nothing to do with Barnabas and Angelique. If that's what the writers had in mind, it didn't work, at least for me. If Bramwell and Catherine were placed together so they could have JF and LP in a romance, then Barnabas realizing he "loves" Angelique is utterly uneccessary to me. Throughout the show they had established Barnabas's hatred for her, how he longs to be free of her as well as his curse. To throw it all away and disregard the established character of Barnabas to set up a new story that is completely separate from the current one is just plain rediculous in my eyes.

I think JF and LP worked well as adversaries and that's where the "chemistry" comes from. I think it's easier to identify "chemistry" between two people who hate each other and/or are constantly in conflict with each other, because conflict and/or hatred is interesting to watch and it seems that it often gets labeled as "chemistry". The two actors worked well together, but I think they worked well with many other people in the cast too. That doesn't mean Barnabas should suddenly love Angelique at the end of the series when nothing has been previously established on the show to make it even slightly believable. IMHO.

[Miranda]

Ah, but we do see SOME precedences of Barnabas having some affection for Angelique pre 1840---in 1795 he admits to her when he albeit reluctantly agrees to marry her that he "did care (for Angelique) long before he realized he loved Josette." Barnabas actually admits this.  Also, while reluctant to marry Angelique, he did keep his promise and even defied his father to do so, and if you can see in the early marriage scenes before he finds out Angelique is a witch, Barnabas is quite solicitious of his wife and I think was willing to make an honest go of the marriage, though of course Angelique put the kibosh on that by her irrational jealousy of Vicki and her trying to frame her for witchcraft, which gradually leads to the end of her hard won marriage.

Barnabas also goes to Angelique for help time and time again, so he is drawn to her in some way, and I don't think it is always because she is the last resort, if he totally and irrecocably despised her, he would have done everything he could to avoid her.  I think Barnabas feelings for Angelique wax and wane between loathing and some affection, Angelique's from sincere love to obsessive jealousy and anger.

He certainly comes to Angelique for help during the Leviathans, and is solicitous of her when she leaves Sky, but then almost immediately has to run out to warn Maggie about Nicholas, not a very gallant thing to do...

I don't maintain that Barnabas always loved Angelique, but rather that he GREW to love her in 1840 once she reclaimed her humanity, as perhaps he again saw the beautiful young girl that he had first been attracted to and by his own admission cared for on some level when he met her on Martinique..

[Fletcher]

Sounds like some of you are suggesting there was a little "Steve/Rachel/Alice" in "Barnabas/Angelique/Josette", and that may very well be true.  A man attracted to two women on opposite ends of the spectrum -- torn between his love for one woman and his lust for the other.

[Miss_Winthrop]

Not sure just how much he truly loved Vicki, was it love, or jealousy that Burke, then Jeff, got her?  Was she just the "unobtainable girl"?  The challenge he couldn't win?  Don't know...As for Roxanne, well, more than anything I think he was trying to convince himself he DIDN'T love Angelique in 1840 and Roxanne was his escape perhaps?

In Dallas, JR's wife Sue Ellen observes that to JR, the 'chase' is the attraction and once he gets the woman he wants, he gets bored and so he's off to find a new conquest.  So the 'chase' is the thing I think very much with Quentin. Also Barnabas to a degree, at least as far as Vicki is concerned.

[Midnite]

Sounds like some of you are suggesting there was a little "Steve/Rachel/Alice" in "Barnabas/Angelique/Josette", and that may very well be true.  A man attracted to two women on opposite ends of the spectrum -- torn between his love for one woman and his lust for the other.

Ah, Another World.  Great comparison, though the "good" Alice was the blonde and Rachel, the one with a darker soul, was brunette.  Thank goodness the DS writers didn't have Angelique get pregnant. 

[Mysterious Benefactor]

Ah, Another World.  Great comparison, though the "good" Alice was the blonde and Rachel, the one with a darker soul, was brunette.

As I've mentioned before, I love how DS turned that very prevalent soap convention of the time on its head by having the blondes be the evil ones (i.e. the Angeliques and Lauras) and the brunettes the innocent ones (i.e. Vicki, Rachel, Daphne).

Thank goodness the DS writers didn't have Angelique get pregnant.

Oh, I don't know - it might have been very interesting if a character had been conceived as the demon spawn of Angelique and Barnabas - particularly if they'd put a similar twist on SORAS (Soap Opera Rapid Aging Syndrome) as Angel did by having the baby disappear into a hell dimension, where time was very different from our own, only to emerge a few months later as a young adult. Just think of the amazing storyline possibilties there might have been if Barnabas had had to deal with his own evil son or daughter. Or it could have been even more interesting if the character had been conflicted and there had been a battle to see whether evil or good would have won out, with Angelique on one side and Barnabas on the other. The battle might have raged within the character for years.