DS women as lovemakers.

[stefan]

Ah, but we do see SOME precedences of Barnabas having some affection for Angelique pre 1840---in 1795 he admits to her when he albeit reluctantly agrees to marry her that he "did care (for Angelique) long before he realized he loved Josette." Barnabas actually admits this.  Also, while reluctant to marry Angelique, he did keep his promise and even defied his father to do so, and if you can see in the early marriage scenes before he finds out Angelique is a witch, Barnabas is quite solicitious of his wife and I think was willing to make an honest go of the marriage, though of course Angelique put the kibosh on that by her irrational jealousy of Vicki and her trying to frame her for witchcraft, which gradually leads to the end of her hard won marriage

Just a very small bit. In 1795 I remember Barnabas telling Angelique that their relationship now would be "out of the question" and his answer IS ambiguous. But, it's grasping for points here and there. I really believe Barnabas was simply trying to let Angelique off easy, not hurt her feelings and do the (a little late albeit) gentlemanly thing in easing her frustrations. There were also hints Angelique may have wanted Barnabas purely for the reason that Josette loved him. The 1795 line has Angelique telling Ben that Josette had many "suitors" (not sure about the spelling here) but that Josette only loved Barnabas and that Angelique stole many of her suitors. Also, the playing field wasn't too fair for Josette considering she was kept in the dark for all of the series (except for some hints on the 1897/1795 flashback) re the Angelique/Barnabas mess. I think Josette held up well, Barnabas repeatedly stated to all concerned that he truly loved Josette. But, Angelique simply "did not want it to be so". Barnabas and Angelique were also given more screen time, better writing than Josette/Barnabas (except in the 1897/1795 flashback) and Josette dissappears quickly from the scene. Considering again, Josette held up pretty well and Barnabas/Josette are still my fav couple.

[BuzzH]

Thank goodness the DS writers didn't have Angelique get pregnant. 

True, they did that when they had Bramwell impregnate Catherine, LOL!     Speaking of, I watched the last 4 eps last night and you really can see this STRONG love between Bramwell & Catherine, like when they are locked in the room and he's desperately trying to get her out so their child will survive etc...It's almost painful to watch how they pine for each other, when Catherine throws herself at Morgan's feet and pleads for Bramwell's life etc...I just love that much maligned storyline!  Hey, that rhymes!  

[BuzzH]

Oh, I don't know - it might have been very interesting if a character had been conceived as the demon spawn of Angelique and Barnabas - particularly if they'd put a similar twist on SORAS (Soap Opera Rapid Aging Syndrome) as Angel did by having the baby disappear into a hell dimension, where time was very different from our own, only to emerge a few months later as a young adult. Just think of the amazing storyline possibilties there might have been if Barnabas had had to deal with his own evil son or daughter. Or it could have been even more interesting if the character had been conflicted and there had been a battle to see whether evil or good would have won out, with Angelique on one side and Barnabas on the other. The battle might have raged within the character for years.

Ooh, I like the storyline potential here MB!  Again, sounds like it would make a very interesting fan fic story!  Writers??

[BuzzH]

Barnabas and Angelique were also given more screen time, better writing than Josette/Barnabas (except in the 1897/1795 flashback) and Josette dissappears quickly from the scene. Considering again, Josette held up pretty well and Barnabas/Josette are still my fav couple.

Very true, Jonathan & Lara got some GREAT scenes to play together, particularly love the scene in 1897 in the tower room, their first scene together in that plotline if I recall correctly.  The writing is fantastic and the acting is spot on, quite a surprise actually considering Frid's love of the teleprompter.  But he doesn't falter or fumble once, and doesn't look at or for the teleprompter.  He must have spent ALL NIGHT memorizing that wonderful scene, it shows in his performance!  But again, this goes to this electifying chemistry they had together.  He really can play the hot blooded hetro when he's in a scene w/her, particularly during 1841 PT.

Still, being the romantic I am, I love Barnabas w/Josetete too Stefan, they were just so SWEET together, like the popular high school couple that everyone loves or something.  When he dies, and she practically throws herself over him, I just CRY my eyes out!  

[Barnabas'sBride]

Ah, but we do see SOME precedences of Barnabas having some affection for Angelique pre 1840---in 1795 he admits to her when he albeit reluctantly agrees to marry her that he "did care (for Angelique) long before he realized he loved Josette." Barnabas actually admits this.  Also, while reluctant to marry Angelique, he did keep his promise and even defied his father to do so, and if you can see in the early marriage scenes before he finds out Angelique is a witch, Barnabas is quite solicitious of his wife and I think was willing to make an honest go of the marriage, though of course Angelique put the kibosh on that by her irrational jealousy of Vicki and her trying to frame her for witchcraft, which gradually leads to the end of her hard won marriage.

I think he was touched by Angelique's willingness to marry him when he warned quite her clearly that he would always love Josette. At that point, in his eyes, Josette had been lost to him. She was a widow, but she had married his brother. He could see that Angelique loved him and he was grateful to her for "saving" Sarah. He would never have loved her as he did Josette, IMO, but he would've tried to make a life with her. He took marriage seriously. When he finds out who the witch is, any caring or affection he had for Angelique is gone and rightly so. He realizes that Josette never loved Jeremiah and that Angelique was responsible for all of his and his family's troubles and tries to kill her and have the life with Josette she had taken from him. I don't think any other feeling but hatred existed for her inside of him once he found out what she was and what she had done. And it isn't like she didn't fan the flame of hatred in his heart by tormenting Josette off the cliff, going after Victoria and his family in the present time, wanting to place the curse back on him, always trying to trap him into a life with her, etc...

Barnabas also goes to Angelique for help time and time again, so he is drawn to her in some way, and I don't think it is always because she is the last resort, if he totally and irrecocably despised her, he would have done everything he could to avoid her.  I think Barnabas feelings for Angelique wax and wane between loathing and some affection, Angelique's from sincere love to obsessive jealousy and anger.

I believe he sincerely wished to avoid her. In Leviathan, his family was in very grave danger. We've seen at this point that he cares about his family, so it's not unreasonable to me that he would look to Angelique for help because of her powers, but that doesn't mean he doesn't still despise her, IMO. When it comes to saving his family or someone he loves, he's willing to deal with Angelique. We did see that. But that doesn't mean there's any affection there. It just means he'll do what's neccessary to help those at Collinwood.

He certainly comes to Angelique for help during the Leviathans, and is solicitous of her when she leaves Sky, but then almost immediately has to run out to warn Maggie about Nicholas, not a very gallant thing to do...

I think he had a moment of pity for her during the Leviathan storyline after Sky, remembering what she'd told him in 1897. Pity doesn't have to equal affection or caring.

IMO, when he looked back on Martinique, he thought of the dalliance that cost he and his loved ones their lives. Considering the way it haunted him through the centuries in the form of Angelique always going after him either directly or indirectly through his family and friends, I can't imagine it being any other way, and the last minute turn around in 1840 didn't convince me. It honestly just made me want to throw my TV out of the window.  

BuzzH - I don't see Barnabas and Josette's relationship as a high school one. I think it was very real and that they would've been very happy together had they married. Their love for each other is but one of the many reasons I can't see Barnabas ever loving Angelique. I'm very much a Barnabas/Josette fan, and I wish they the writers had done more with the character of Josette.

[BuzzH]

BuzzH - I don't see Barnabas and Josette's relationship as a high school one. I think it was very real and that they would've been very happy together had they married. Their love for each other is but one of the many reasons I can't see Barnabas ever loving Angelique. I'm very much a Barnabas/Josette fan, and I wish they the writers had done more with the character of Josette.

LOL!  I didn't mean to imply that I thought their love for each other was in any way childish, it was definately REAL and strong and I too could see them very happily married w/several children.  What I meant was, they were SWEET together, the kind of couple that would make anyone near them go, "Awwww"    The kind of couple that EVERYONE loves, whether they are the top high school couple, college sweethearts, or a favorite soap couple like Luke & Laura from GH.  

***SPOILER***  (I don't know how to white out this next part)
[spoiler]I'm more than a little pissed that they had her commit suicide when he fails to show up at the Old House because he's waylayed by the Levithans in the woods.

In my opinion they should have had him meet her, then while they are in the woods together, have the Leviathans abduct her to make him do their bidding.  I would have preferred that than having him under their influence.  I think that would have been more interesting to have him basically acting normally, but secretive, even w/Julia, his most trusted friend, when he returned to the presence.  Think of all the wonderful angst for Jonathan to play with Barnabas NOT being able to be honest w/Julia for fear the Leviathans would kill Josette.[/spoiler]

Of course you would have the problem of KLS playing identical characters in the present however, sigh...And again, I think it goes back to that old chemistry lesson, LOL!  While KLS and Jon DID have some chemistry, it was nothing compared to he and Lara, IMHO anyway. 

[Midnite]

(I don't know how to white out this next part)

Just surround the text with these tags:

Code: [Select]

[spoiler][/spoiler]in that order. 

[Gothick]

I think one of the best scenes, bar none, between Barnabas and Angelique is in the 1968 storyline when she comes to the Old House as Cassandra after Nicholas has punished her, terminally, for the failure of the Dream Curse and her unwillingness to be a Team Player in Nicky's domain.

It's such a poignant scene, and I think they were both being honest with one another.  One of the few times that was likely the case.

I can't agree with the idea of Angelique as a one-man woman.  I think she took her relationships with both Quentin and, subsequently, Sky, quite seriously.

Neither man was suited for the role she wished him to play in her life, anymore than Barnabas was.  Her problems began because she persisted in seeing these failures as blows to her own pride and ego, rather than incompatibilities that had at least something to do with the TYPE of man she persisted in choosing.

The end of her story and Barnabas' in 1840 is really upsetting, if I bother to think about it for more than about 5 seconds, because it's such a slap in the face of the richly established histories of the two characters up to that point.  Lela Swift tried to get around this by having the writers present an Angelique who had not yet lived any of the events subsequent to 1795, which was simply absurd, and again, insulting to viewers who had so much invested in the story at that point.

Sorry to natter on.  such a topic...

G.

[BuzzH]

Just surround the text with these tags:

Code: [Select]

[spoiler][/spoiler]in that order. 

Cool, thanks Midnite

[Connie]

I can't agree with the idea of Angelique as a one-man woman.  I think she took her relationships with both Quentin and, subsequently, Sky, quite seriously.

I don't think she took her "relationship" with Quentin seriously.  She used him.
I think she did take her marriage to Sky seriously though.  (why, I don't know - doesn't seem like her type)

[MagnusTrask]

I think they had A go for Q in 1897 just to repeat 1795 with BC and A, and to repeat something that worked.    I think they probably meant it to be sincere on A's part at the time, but changed their minds when they saw it wasn't going anywhere, once it had served its other purpose, in setting off Beth's jealousy so she could finish off/not finish off Q.

I think Julia did keep coming down hard on BC every time there was any hint of there being victims.   Of his, I mean.   Of his vampirism.    She didn't turn him in to the police or anything...  [spoiler](Wait she did... not not yet!)[/spoiler]  but for his own good as well as for others, she kept a sharp semi-judgemental eye on him.    Of course A created the evil in him, but still, who else would ever understand it but her?     BC wrought a lot of havoc, and he also had a certain amount of free will, it turned out.    They're alike.

What might be getting in the way of understanding the possibility of this relationship, and how it ended, is that A and BC just have to be radically, fundamentally different people than any of us on this board could possibly ever be.      We're talking about how romance and attraction and hatred work in the context of our fairly comfortable, unchallenged lives (unless any of us are outlaws or warlocks or anything).  We're talking about how we would feel or react.  But their situations have little or nothing in common with ours.    (The stretches of time involved change everything, just by themselves.)  One reason we watch shows like this one is to experience experiences we have no access to, and part of that is to stretch our imaginations, and try to see how people this different and who are taking so much more of a bizarre, extreme, surreal battering from life think, feel, and react.

Even with Julia around, BC is alone, more so than most people could ever imagine.    And if BC can come around to forgiving himself, I think, after all that's happened, he could finally forgive Angelique.      Life takes those strange twists and turns.

[Amy Jennings Fan]

Early Maggie

[Nancy]

Then of course there's Julia, I think in his own way he loved her too, but not as much as the other two, which is probably why he never returned her feelings for him.  I was just watching boxset 10 last night and they are getting ready to do the experiment and when Maggie goes missing, Julia offers to be the life force, but he refuses, and not just because he doesn't trust Jeff to run the experiment.  He's worried Julia might die during it.  That's got to qualify as SOMETHING like love, right?  

You're so right, IMO, and state the case wonderfully.  The tendency is to dismiss any love that is not romantic love as somehow being the booby prize in terms of relationships.  You can love a friend (even one of whatever sex you are attracted to), in my case a guy, to the point where you would do just about anything for, including give your life if it came to that.  You love that person.  That kind of love can't be dismissed as being unimportant.  While Julia might have wanted Barnabas in a romantic way, they still had a bond of friendship many would envy.  She didn't get what she wanted but I by no means feel sorry for her.

Nancy

[Nancy]

[Barnabas'Bride perfectly stated my feelings for what occurred at the end of 1840.  I question that he could get over Angelique's brand of punishment so easily.

Yes, that whole scene was a little hard to buy from what I remember.  Can we really expect Barnabas to say:

"Angelique, I have loved you all along and was too blind to realize it.  I know you put this curse upon me, were responsible for killing my sister, putting a spell on my financee so that she would marry my uncle, casting various spells that created a terrible chain reaction that eventually killed my aunt and eventually my mother but I don't believe in  hanging on to petty things . . ."


Nancy

[stefan]

Neither man was suited for the role she wished him to play in her life, anymore than Barnabas was.  Her problems began because she persisted in seeing these failures as blows to her own pride and ego, rather than incompatibilities that had at least something to do with the TYPE of man she persisted in choosing.

I'm not sure any man could have suited for the role Angelique whished them to play in her life. I honestly don't believe, as she was originally written, that Angelique was capable of love. Her power forever corrupted her. Let's face it, she was a borderline psychopath, capable of cold blooded murder to achieve her aims. Targeting Sarah as a means of revenge forever tainted her in my eyes. She was also a liar and the most dangerous of liars as she appeared to believed her own lies and that she was capable of being a normal woman with a normal life. Let's say, after a series of lies and deceits, finegeling Barnabas into marrying her, that Barnabas, in his most gentlemanly fashion, tried to make it work. How much time would it take for him to discover that Angelique was indeed a witch who took great pleasure in placing curses to get her own way, that, starting from day one, Angelique had already lied to him over and over. How would Barnabas feel that to protect her cover Angelique by witchcarft and spells tried to get Vickie burned as a wtich, to kill her outright. A terrified girl who never did a thing to her. Man, this woman was a murderess plain and simply. How would it be possible for Barnabas to love her? How could anyone love her? I noticed that by 1897 Angelique took on an almost waxy marble look. Incapable, because of her own power and how it separated her from ordinary humans. Only a fellow witch or warlock might have understood. That's why it was so refreshing to see Angelique and Nicholas Blair interact, nice to see them connect so easily.