Author Topic: Voice of Judah vs. Judah Zachary  (Read 2013 times)

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Offline Philippe Cordier

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Voice of Judah vs. Judah Zachary
« on: October 29, 2003, 08:20:59 PM »
I'm confused over the episode where Angelique has the flashback to the 1692 courtroom when she testifies against Judah Zachary.

I know it was explained during the last run that the voice of Judah Zachary was actually that of Keene Curtis.  The closing credits for the episode read:

Voice of Judah
Keene Curtis

Judah Zachary
Michael McGuire


I have a number of questions.  First, why did Keene Curtis do the voice of Judah rather than the actor who is playing him (Michael McGuire)?  That seems an unusual situation, to say the least.  Granted, Curtis' voice was fantastic, and maybe McGuire has a high-pitched whine or something ... but if that's the case, why would he have been cast in the part to begin with?

Second, was Keene's voice dubbed?  Was the hooded Judah Zachary Michael McGuire in that scene, or was it actually Keene Curtis.  Watching the tape a couple of times, it certainly LOOKS like the voice/words are coming directly out of the hooded actor's mouth ... i.e., it didn't look dubbed or like a voice over, with the actor only mouthing the words.

Could the hooded actor have been Keene Curtis, and then when there was a cutaway, was he then substituted with McGuire in the cut where Judah Zachary removes the hood?  THAT actor didn't look like McGuire to me, though -- was it Keene Curtis?

What about the other voiceovers, such as when Gerard is hearing Judah Zachary's voice?  It sounds to me like James Storm is doing JZ's voice in those sequences, which could be the case if they're trying to make it so that Judah's thoughts and personality are beginning to meld with Gerard's.

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Offline Midnite

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Re:Voice of Judah vs. Judah Zachary
« Reply #1 on: October 30, 2003, 01:25:41 AM »
I have a number of questions.  First, why did Keene Curtis do the voice of Judah rather than the actor who is playing him (Michael McGuire)?  That seems an unusual situation, to say the least.  Granted, Curtis' voice was fantastic, and maybe McGuire has a high-pitched whine or something ... but if that's the case, why would he have been cast in the part to begin with?

I don't know the answer to those questions, but I've heard Michael McGuire's voice and my guess is that someone decided his voice wasn't satisfactory for portraying a powerful warlock, but then again what DOES a powerful warlock sound like?

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Second, was Keene's voice dubbed?  Was the hooded Judah Zachary Michael McGuire in that scene, or was it actually Keene Curtis.

No, it wasn't dubbed...

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Could the hooded actor have been Keene Curtis, and then when there was a cutaway, was he then substituted with McGuire in the cut where Judah Zachary removes the hood?

Yes, that's how it played out.

Rewatching that scene refreshed my memory; very recently, in another topic, I had said that Keene Curtis was Judah's voice, but that wasn't completely correct because he also appeared as him, albeit with most of his face obscured by the hood.

Quote
What about the other voiceovers, such as when Gerard is hearing Judah Zachary's voice?

I haven't watched those scenes in a long time, so perhaps someone else could answer this question.

Offline Bob_the_Bartender

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Re:Voice of Judah vs. Judah Zachary
« Reply #2 on: October 30, 2003, 02:45:11 AM »
I don't know the answer to those questions, but I've heard Michael McGuire's voice and my guess is that someone decided his voice wasn't satisfactory for portraying a powerful warlock, but then again what DOES a powerful warlock sound like?


Dear IronBitch,

You know, that's a heck of a question:  What does a powerful warlock sound like?

Well, here a couple of suggestions on what that imposing guy (or gal) might sound like:

1.  The late Jim Morrison of The Doors.

I'm reminded of Jim's stentorian-like prose on the song "The Soft Parade":  "When I was back there in seminary school, a person put forth the proposition that you can petition the Lord with prayer...petition the Lord with prayer.  YOU CANNOT PETITION THE LORD WITH PRAYER!!!"  (Okay Jim!  Tell us what you really think.)

2.  Arnold Stang.

Yes, who can forget Arnold's powerful dialogue to his gas station colleague/grease monkey in "It's A Mad, Mad, Mad, Mad World," when, the crazed truck driver, Jonathan Winters, was about to pound the two of them to certain death?  "We're going to have to kill that crazy man, Arnie!"  (Mr. Arnold Stang, so much more than just a handsome face!)

3. Mercedes McCambridge.

The guttural-sounding Ms. McCambridge was absolutey perfect as the voice of "Captain Howdy," the devil's emissary who possessed little Megan in the hit film, "The Exorcist."  Who can forget Ms. McCambridge's line: "The sow is mine!"  (I still get nightmares thinking  about it.)

Bob the Bartender

Offline Philippe Cordier

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Re:Voice of Judah vs. Judah Zachary
« Reply #3 on: October 30, 2003, 03:25:49 AM »
Thank you for the clarifications, IronBitch.  I don't think this is explained in any of the Pomegranate Press books, nor has it been explained elsewhere.  The matter is usually left very murky ...

As an aside, I think Michael McGuire is kind of odd looking.  Maybe that's a good thing for a warlock.  But I wonder if Keene Curtis would have been a more attractive, charismatic warlock ... I'm not sure what Mr. Curtis looked like, to tell the truth, but he certainly had a compelling voice.

I can't remember if we see/hear much more of Judah Zachary from this point on ... guess I'll have to wait and find out!


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Offline Mysterious Benefactor

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Re:Voice of Judah vs. Judah Zachary
« Reply #4 on: October 30, 2003, 03:46:34 AM »
First, why did Keene Curtis do the voice of Judah rather than the actor who is playing him (Michael McGuire)?  That seems an unusual situation, to say the least.

Why did they use Timothy Gordon as Jeremiah's ghost and Addison Powell as the ghost's voice? Seemingly only the DS PTB know the answers to these questions...

Offline petofi

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Re:Voice of Judah vs. Judah Zachary
« Reply #5 on: November 04, 2003, 03:48:34 PM »
Hi!
Michael McGuire is still a working actor who, I believe, has worked both coasts in episodic tv for decades.  You may remember him as Diane Chambers' boyfriend in the first episode of Cheers.  He has also appeared in numerous Law and Order type shows, usually portraying lawyers.  He sometimes wears a toupee, but mostly goes au naturel. He seems thinner now. His voice has a higher pitch to it, and a bit of a nasal twang. I usually detect a bit of New York dialect, as well, and perhaps that was a bit thicker 30-odd years ago, making it inappropriate for Judah?

petofi

Offline CyrusL

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Re:Voice of Judah vs. Judah Zachary
« Reply #6 on: November 10, 2003, 07:09:07 PM »
On Oct 29, Vlad asked
Quote
Could the hooded actor have been Keene Curtis, and then when there was a cutaway, was he then substituted with McGuire in the cut where Judah Zachary removes the hood?  THAT actor didn't look like McGuire to me, though -- was it Keene Curtis?
I have viewed that episode several times and have always been under the belief that the masked figure is indeed played by Keene Curtis while the unmasked Judah, aka the Judah in the box, is Michael McGuire. Aside from the fact that their is dual billing for the character in that episode, the other main clue is the shape of the actor's head. The late Keene Curtis was perhaps best known as Broadway's Daddy Warbucks in "Annie" as well as also appearing quite a few times on "Cheers" as John Allen Hill. His head has a more oval shape from the round, rather (all puns intended  ;) ) Phil Collins shape of Michael McGuire. The mask is pretty tight on Judah in the courtroom scene, and if you look at pictures of Curtis, his head shape really matches up to the speaking Judah. He's also thinner tha Maitland.
   As to why they set it up that way, it's lost to history.  ::) I doubt Dan Curtis ( no known relation) would probably remember. Most likely, it allowed them to record Keene's voice when he was available, and not to have to pay Michael McGuire for the days the wax head was used. Likewise, I would have to also concurr that for whatever reason, McGuire's voice did "sound right" for the character.  :o. It all probably fall in line with the fact DS's budget allowed them to pay non-speaking actors less, hence all the silent ghosts, and that an actor who's voice only was being used also got a voice pay which was less than a full performance. Also, you will note by the time the 1840 story was being filmed, they apparently could edit videotape much more easily. There are many more cuts, even though there are still bloopers.
   But I'd bet a mint copy of Gold Key # 3 that that is Keene Curtis under the mask in the courtroom when speaking.
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Offline Philippe Cordier

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Re:Voice of Judah vs. Judah Zachary
« Reply #7 on: November 10, 2003, 09:32:15 PM »
Thanks for the valuable information, guys.

 :)

I have viewed that episode several times and have always been under the belief that the masked figure is indeed played by Keene Curtis while the unmasked Judah, aka the Judah in the box, is Michael McGuire. Aside from the fact that their is dual billing for the character in that episode, the other main clue is the shape of the actor's head.

...

His [Keene Curtis's] head has a more oval shape from the round, rather (all puns intended  ;) ) Phil Collins shape of Michael McGuire. The mask is pretty tight on Judah in the courtroom scene, and if you look at pictures of Curtis, his head shape really matches up to the speaking Judah.

That's what I call dedicated research -- or maybe I should say analysis!
 :D

Quote
He's also thinner tha Maitland.

Maitland ... Freudian slip?   ;D


Quote
Most likely, it allowed them to record Keene's voice when he was available, and not to have to pay Michael McGuire for the days the wax head was used. Likewise, I would have to also concurr that for whatever reason, McGuire's voice did "sound right" for the character.  :o. It all probably fall in line with the fact DS's budget allowed them to pay non-speaking actors less, hence all the silent ghosts, and that an actor who's voice only was being used also got a voice pay which was less than a full performance. Also, you will note by the time the 1840 story was being filmed, they apparently could edit videotape much more easily. There are many more cuts, even though there are still bloopers.

This sounds plausible.  Thanks for helping make sense out of this puzzling (to me) situation.

 ^-^
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Offline Philippe Cordier

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Re:Voice of Judah vs. Judah Zachary
« Reply #8 on: November 10, 2003, 10:30:21 PM »
Likewise, I would have to also concurr that for whatever reason, McGuire's voice did "sound right" for the character.  :o.

On second thought, I'm confused by this.  I'm anticipating that you made a slip here and meant to say that Keene Curtis's voice was right for Judah Zachary, not McGuire's.

"Collinwood is not a healthy place to be." -- Collinsport sheriff, 1995

Offline Mark Rainey

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Re:Voice of Judah vs. Judah Zachary
« Reply #9 on: November 11, 2003, 03:12:34 AM »
Quote
I have viewed that episode several times and have always been under the belief that the masked figure is indeed played by Keene Curtis while the unmasked Judah, aka the Judah in the box, is Michael McGuire. Aside from the fact that their is dual billing for the character in that episode, the other main clue is the shape of the actor's head.

Yes, I'm pretty sure that was Keene Curtis in the mask. It's his voice and there's no indication whatsoever of any dubbing going on. That was back in the days when he was still searching desperately for a tavern to buy and he was in a pretty foul humor.

--Mark[/b][/color]

Offline Mysterious Benefactor

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Re:Dreams of the Dark Sig
« Reply #10 on: November 11, 2003, 04:09:45 AM »
Whoa, Mark - that new animated sig is enough to give anyone nightmares! But then, that's probably why you like it.  [wink2]

Offline Mark Rainey

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Re:Dreams of the Dark Sig
« Reply #11 on: November 11, 2003, 03:06:34 PM »
Quote
Whoa, Mark - that new animated sig is enough to give anyone nightmares! But then, that's probably why you like it.

Heh... The quick, almost subliminal cuts of the demonic face in THE EXORCIST are far more frightening to me than any of Regan's most grotesque makeup. So I figured, why not have a little fun with it? ;)

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Offline CyrusL

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Re:Voice of Judah vs. Judah Zachary
« Reply #12 on: November 11, 2003, 10:26:20 PM »
In an earlier post, I said
Quote
He's also thinner tha Maitland.
Oops. I got Michael McGuire and Michael Maitland 's surname mixed up. I went back to correct it and missed.

Likewise,
Quote
Likewise, I would have to also concurr that for whatever reason, McGuire's voice did "sound right" for the character.  .
Let me correct myself,"...did not "sound right'"...
 :-[

Okay, is there a spell check feature for these posts, ? lol!!    :P

   I have a quick comparison. In one of my favorite Hammer films, "Dracula Has Risen from the Grave," the priest played by Ewan Hooper, who somewhat resembles Michael McGuire, was dubbed. The director, Freddie Francis could not remember why, but that he was somewhat upset at the premiere. I have also heard several of the actors in the early James Bond films, such as Gert Frobe and Adolpho Celi, were dubbed as their English wasn't too good.

CyrusL aka Michael


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Offline Midnite

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Re:Voice of Judah vs. Judah Zachary
« Reply #13 on: November 11, 2003, 10:50:51 PM »
Michael McGuire ... also appeared in numerous Law and Order type shows, usually portraying lawyers.

It's interesting that you said this, petofi, because I have been able to picture him in my mind arguing against Ben Stone on Law & Order (I'm an L&O junkie), but according to the IMDb he was not on that show so I assumed I had succumbed to the faulty memory sydrome.  Then today I saw the episode, and I KNOW that was MM, so I looked it up in tvtome and found that the role is attributed to Michael MAGUIRE.  And sure enough, the IMDb says the same thing, but they've both credited the wrong guy.  So I guess that's why a friend of mine refers to the latter as the Incorrect Movie Database. ::)

Anyway, it's a pity that you all missed MB's montage for the DS ep in question-- it had both a picture of Curtis under the hood and McGuire as Judah with the hood off.

Offline Midnite

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Re:Voice of Judah vs. Judah Zachary
« Reply #14 on: November 11, 2003, 10:55:07 PM »
Okay, is there a spell check feature for these posts, ? lol!!    :P

Not yet, CyrusL, but there will be when we convert to the new version.  I don't think it would've helped you in this case, though. [wink2]

BTW, do you suppose Angelique could've benefitted from a spell checker? ::)