The Salem Branch - Your thoughts

Here Lies Midnite
She Got Letters

LOL!  Got my chuckle for the day! 

After following the discussion on the board, I had to finish the Salem Branch last night.  Wow.  That's all I have to say.  Well, maybe that's not all.

The prologue and the first half of the book are quite good.  If you ignore all of the flowery language and skim-read it for the important parts, the plot is engaging and the mystery of Antoinette is a good one.  I was convinced she was Angelique a la Cassandra.

The book begins to really break down when [spoiler]Barnabas and Toni make wild mushroom love in the hippie camp (or was it acid).[/spoiler] Just typing that sentence on the board is ridiculous.  The Miranda back-story was very interesting and I went the whole first half picturing and assuming the Miranda of the original DS storyline (in other words Lara Parker/Angelique).  To then have the original storyline completely contradicted was just too much for me.  I am not into continuity and I don't care if the audios or books are official, I just like them or don't like them.  However, this was too much for me.  A dark haired, half Native American Miranda?

I don't think she knew how to end the book so she took this wild leap of [spoiler]Julia is a vampire.[/spoiler]  My "favorite" part is where Julia explains to Barnabas the plot of the book to make sure that we the readers understand it.  I hate it when authors have characters summarize the plot at the end as if we're all too stupid to get it.

Oh well, I guess a degree isn't everything 

The book begins to really break down when [spoiler]Barnabas and Toni make wild mushroom love in the hippie camp (or was it acid).[/spoiler]

Wa.....it a minute!  There's SEX in this book??!!  Maybe I will buy it, LOL!   

Oh well, I guess a degree isn't everything

No, it isn't. This is just my personal opinion, but I don't put much stock in degrees in creative writing. There are a lot of things one can teach -- discipline, some technique, a lot of what not to do -- but storytelling is so much more than the ability to put words together to create images. Style and voice are not things that are usually taught; they come from within, and some people are more naturally adept at it than others. Voracious reading of literature; writing every damn day whether you feel like it or not; going through rigorous editorial screening; reading literature; performing your work in front of an audience; having a natural eye for detail, local color, personalities, manners of speaking; maybe reading some more... These are what go into being a professional writer. Some folks are fortunate to start out early with a natural voice; others develop it over a long period of time. While I never frown on furthering one's education in an academic institution, there's no teacher like experience. Learning to edit is as important as being able to write. Not every word is golden. Sometimes you have to toss out a lot of dross to get to the bits that work.

All IMHO opinion, of course. Having been in the business for a while.

Nothing in the creative writing class I took told me anything.    A class won't supply you with priorities or something to say.     I don't start learning until I have a deep motivation (which I didn't).    Then I have to clear the decks and question everything.      The only way to pick your own teachers would be to learn from literature itself i'd think.   i'm not sure if any of that meant anything.

I think they all tell you there are basic necessary 'elements' like 'conflict'.    Then you see countless stories with manufactured overblown conflict that has no real purpose other than to be a 'necessary element'.

I want to write but I'm the latest bloomer I've ever heard of, and the slowest.     I've learned to care about doing writing more than "becoming a writer".    Self-editing may take humilty which sometimes has to be knocked into you by nasty life experiences.     I've had that.    It's hard to shift gears from struggling with a bit of writing, then realizing it's bad or wrong and letting it go.

No, it isn't. This is just my personal opinion, but I don't put much stock in degrees in creative writing. There are a lot of things one can teach -- discipline, some technique, a lot of what not to do -- but storytelling is so much more than the ability to put words together to create images. Style and voice are not things that are usually taught; they come from within, and some people are more naturally adept at it than others.

You are SO on the mark, Mark, I couldn't agree more!  I was an English major, which quite frankly is a useless degree UNLESS you want to teach (which one of my nephews who ALSO holds a BA in English is going to do), and I took several 'writing' courses and didn't learn a damn thing in any of them, except to do whatever the hell I want when I write!  

It's so funny to have teachers telling you "don't do this, this or this when you write and NEVER do THAT!"  In just about everything I write, whether if it's my short ficition stories or my novel, I broke all the rules, and I don't think it mattered one bit.  Ppl who are inclined to write can write, and those that aren't TEACH!  Writing comes from inside a person, it can't be learned. 

Ppl who are inclined to write can write, and those that aren't TEACH!  Writing comes from inside a person, it can't be learned.

Thanks. I'll tell my students that this afternoon and then I'll quit my job. 

Writing is what I want to go to college for, so this is an interesting subject of conversation..... If I don't go back to school for writing I doubt I'll ever go because it's the only thing that really interests me enough to bother.

I took a creative writing course in high school and it was my favorite class. The teacher never told us specifically what to write about. We had a lot of creative freedom.

I think a person can be both a teacher and a writer - in fact, that's pretty much what I see myself doing.

Please don't misunderstand my point -- I would never discourage anyone from taking creative writing courses or getting a degree. Higher education is a wonderful thing. My point, though, is that a degree -- or a number of courses -- does not a writer make. Particularly for people who are naturally inclined to writing, or have that great desire, creative writing courses can be great. I had a few in high school and college, and they were my favorite because they were very liberating for my imagination. But as with any course, a creative writing class is only as good as 1) what the instructor brings to the table and 2) what you, as the student, bring to the table.

One of the failings that I tend to see when interacting with people who've gone through such courses was touched on earlier -- that is, throw conflict into everything. When I was editing Deathrealm, I could often pick out the manuscripts from people who'd been taking creative writing courses because there was always a bunch of needless antagonism between characters (not necessarily between protagonist/antagonist) -- as if that's an automatic tension-producer. I've got news for you. Most of the time, it just annoys the reader.

Conflict isn't something to throw willy-nilly into the mix. It's got to be well thought-out, and it has to make sense within the context of the story. All too often, in the hands of novices, the conflict is about as meaningful as Michael Palin paying John Cleese to have a five-minute argument.

Oh, yes it is.

All too often, in the hands of novices, the conflict is about as meaningful as Michael Palin paying John Cleese to have a five-minute argument.

Oh, yes it is.

That's great!    Nice to get confirmation on an opinion I'd just been saying within my own head up until now, too.   But a lot of those novices go on to become paid Hollywood writers apparently.     It's got to be possible to teach many valuable things about writing, but public schools can kill off one's desire to learn anything.    

Please don't misunderstand my point -- I would never discourage anyone from taking creative writing courses or getting a degree. Higher education is a wonderful thing. My point, though, is that a degree -- or a number of courses -- does not a writer make.

This too was my point, sorry if I wasn't clear, or if anyone was offended by the remark about teaching.  I think teachers are wonderful, SELFLESS ppl who chose to educate the masses rather than make millions doing something more ego-centric w/their lives.  They are also GROSSLY underpaid IMHO!  It makes me sick actually when I hear actors and sports figures bitching about how many millions they'll get a year when teachers, nurses, police officers and firefighters do the REAL work and have no money to show for it.  But I digress...

Although I don't feel I really LEARNED about writing from any of my writing classes nor did I learn TO write because of them, I thoroughly enjoyed them all because, well, I was able to WRITE!  Homework was never more fun.    So, to Barnabas'Bride, definately GO TO COLLEGE and major in English if you want, and since you want to teach as well as write, that's the right major for you!  But just be aware that you won't really learn HOW to write, that's something I feel ppl can either do or not naturally.  But you can certainly brush up on any skills you already have.   

Just as there are bad writers, there are bad teachers.  You can love doing either thing but not be very good at it in spite of your best efforts.  A college degree of any kind means you have mastered an understanding of what your craft involves and how it can be done.  That's it.  Good writing is a gift as good teaching is a gift.  I have taught creative writing for several years and been told I am a good teacher.  I have sit in on other creative writing classes taught by teachers who are not very good at their craft.  They want to be, but aren't.  Teaching is very much an artistic craft, in my opinion.  That ability to transcend text and technique to inspire, motivate and harness the creative spirit of students so they can bring their talent to the page is very much a gift.

Not everyone who teaches has that gift to teach.

Nancy

Here Lies Midnite
She Got Letters

LOL!  Got my chuckle for the day! 

Buzz, you beat me to it...I, too, LOL--okay--ROFLMAO--about Midnight's epitaph!

Here Lies Midnite
She Got Letters

LOL!  Got my chuckle for the day! 

Buzz, you beat me to it...I, too, LOL--okay--ROFLMAO--about Midnight's epitaph!

And Midnight: I'm still laughing.  Thanks for making my night!!

I don't understand why one is exclusive of the other at all.  Stephen King comes to mind as he was not only an English but a successful writer some of us might have heard of.    Joe Salvatore (Craig's boyfriend) is a writer, actor and a teacher at NYU; I have also made my living at times (and still to a degree) writing and teaching.  Both writing and teaching are important to me.  Joe's website takes on this old adage in the opening part of his website (http://www.joesalvatore.com as most of those involved in working in a craft want to share their knowledge and experience with those wanting to get involved.  Who wants to learn from a teacher who has no idea of how life really works when one wants to be an actor, writer, whatever?

Nancy

Ppl who are inclined to write can write, and those that aren't TEACH!  Writing comes from inside a person, it can't be learned.