NAOMI NOTION

[VAM]

Naomi's suicide could be considered a cowardly way out or an act of sheer despiration. Can the two reasons be separated?
What do you thinK?


VAM, who is trying to show a serious side to her posts. :-/

[Nancy]

Naomi's suicide could be considered a cowardly way out or an act of sheer despiration. Can the two reasons be separated?
What do you thinK?


VAM, who is trying to show a serious side to her posts. :-/

Naomi, by all accounts, has a long standing drinking problem.  Maybe it is alcoholism.  If we accept that premise, we need to apply the mindset of "an addict" and this entails spates (or ongoing) of faulty reasoning, serious self-esteem issues, etc.  Here we have a mother who saw her youngest child die suddenly, and the same for her son. These children represented the warmth in her life.  You could store meat and frozen vegetables anywhere on Joshua.   I believe if you combine those two horrible heartbreaks on top of an already longstanding unhappy, troubled state of mind, you can understand what suicide was the answer at the moment.  Our self-preservation is the strongest instinct we have, and many will argue that to commit suicide you are (at least for the moment) out of your mind.  It might be a passing moment of madness, but suicide is permanent.

Nancy

[Raineypark]

What mother of a dying child abandons the fight before her child is gone?

I can't buy Naomi's suicide while her son still has even the "appearance" of life.  Especially since she has just been given the proof of Joshua's profound love for her.

That alone should have lifted her up, enabled her to remain at Joshua's side and fight for her son's life, or his death, whichever they could manage.  

THEN, I could imagine, the magnitude of her combined losses might have completely overwhelmed her ....but not before.

Once again, expediency won out over craft when the writers were handed this assignment.
Rainey

[Nancy]

What mother of a dying child abandons the fight before her child is gone?

I can't buy Naomi's suicide while her son still has even the "appearance" of life.  Especially since she has just been given the proof of Joshua's profound love for her.

That alone should have lifted her up, enabled her to remain at Joshua's side and fight for her son's life, or his death, whichever they could manage.  

THEN, I could imagine, the magnitude of her combined losses might have completely overwhelmed her ....but not before.

Once again, expediency won out over craft when the writers were handed this assignment.
Rainey

If I were Barnabas' mother (which I'm glad I'm not, by the way) and I saw him suffer and die, only to discover his coffin and see him standing and seemingly breathing some time later, I would suspect there was something seriously wrong with that arrangement from the get-go.  Why would he not have shown up before all that if he really were alive? And why would he need a coffin around? Too poor to buy a regular bed?

Given all the weird crap that has happened to that family, I do not blame her if she immediately thought there was something painfully abnormal about Barnabas being up and walking.  I don't think she is in her mind anyway with all that she has endured on top of a substance problem.

Nancy

[Raineypark]

Nancy, your comments about the "unnatural" circumstances of Barnabas' living death reminded me of somthing I haven't thought about in a long time.

I've read many of Stephen King's novels and enjoyed most of the ones I've read.  But the one novel I found too profoundly disturbing was "Pet Cemetery"....for very personal reasons.

One of my cousins died when he was a teenager, and I remember thinking, as I read that story, "If someone had come to my Aunt, in the midst of that unimaginable grief, and whispered to her 'I can bring him back', I can imagine her agreeing to ANYTHING, doing ANYTHING, no matter how insane it seemed.....if she believed it could be done."

I guess it's THAT reaction I'm thinking of, when I say I don't believe a Mother would give up while there was still even just the 'appearance' of life.  

Rainey

[Birdie]

I don't know I think Naomi just had all she could take.  I finding Barnabas and learning that he could have done all those horrible things just might have been her last straw.  Never mind that her husband didn't confide in her about their son.  Everyone had good points, her problem with alcohol most likely added to this desperation.  
Raineypack said she could not see a mother giving up hope.  Sad to say but I can.  This comes from personal experience.  When my daughter was sick there was a time when I prayed if her life was going to be so awful that God take her or make her better.  Thank goodness she got better and is now l8 years old and in college.  
Now my sister in law has that same problem.  Our nephew has been in a coma for over a year.  The quality of life is just not there.  The chances of this changes are so very slim now.  That if he gets sick they just might let him go.  They spend everyday with him all day.  He was hurt at his college either by a hit or run or attacked.

Sorry I am rambling on and on.

Birdie

[Raineypark]

You're not rambling Birdie....and if you are, then so am I.

I understand that there comes a time when letting go makes more sense than hanging on.  My Mother had Alzheimer's Disease for 11 years before she died, and was completely unresponsive for the last 4. That's a VERY long time saying goodbye.

I can imagine quite easily a time when a parent would be willing to let a child go......but I have a hard time imagining a parent being more willing to go ahead, and leave the child behind.

My heart goes out to your nephew and his parents.

VAM.....you wanted serious.........
Rainey

[Nancy]

Nancy, your comments about the "unnatural" circumstances of Barnabas' living death reminded me of somthing I haven't thought about in a long time.

I've read many of Stephen King's novels and enjoyed most of the ones I've read.  But the one novel I found too profoundly disturbing was "Pet Cemetery"....for very personal reasons.

One of my cousins died when he was a teenager, and I remember thinking, as I read that story, "If someone had come to my Aunt, in the midst of that unimaginable grief, and whispered to her 'I can bring him back', I can imagine her agreeing to ANYTHING, doing ANYTHING, no matter how insane it seemed.....if she believed it could be done."

I guess it's THAT reaction I'm thinking of, when I say I don't believe a Mother would give up while there was still even just the 'appearance' of life.  

Rainey

Yes, I can understand that reaction in that context.  However, remember in the case of Naomi, the talk of curses, witchcraft and the obvious fact something is seriously wrong in that family creates a different context in finding/seeing Barnabas long after he has supposedly been dead.   You could also make an argument that Naomi might have not trusted her instincts and wondered if she had not totally flipped out.  She may not have been conscious enough to articulate such feelings.  Even though Naomi did not believe in witchcraft, she understood that things were not as they appeared in that household.    Could the site of a live Barnabas be yet another cruel joke or a haunting?  I say all this and I did not see the eps today, so I am only going by memory.

Nancy

[Nancy]

I don't know I think Naomi just had all she could take.  I finding Barnabas and learning that he could have done all those horrible things just might have been her last straw.  Never mind that her husband didn't confide in her about their son.  Everyone had good points, her problem with alcohol most likely added to this desperation.  
Raineypack said she could not see a mother giving up hope.  Sad to say but I can.  This comes from personal experience.  When my daughter was sick there was a time when I prayed if her life was going to be so awful that God take her or make her better.  Thank goodness she got better and is now l8 years old and in college.  
Now my sister in law has that same problem.  Our nephew has been in a coma for over a year.  The quality of life is just not there.  The chances of this changes are so very slim now.  That if he gets sick they just might let him go.  They spend everyday with him all day.  He was hurt at his college either by a hit or run or attacked.

Sorry I am rambling on and on.

Birdie

Birdie, I am glad your daughter recovered, but very sorry to hear the situation your nephew is in.

Nancy

[Cassandra]

I think at this point, Naomi honestly felt she was "at the end of her rope," therefore hitting that point of rock bottom. Naomi has had to deal with one heartbreak after another. With her especially loving & emotional nature, this surely must have taken it's toll on her. I think at this point she felt like she hit the bottom and sadly, not being of rational mind, felt there was no other way out.  I think she might not had done it if she had only spoken to Barnabas FIRST. It was way too late by the time she finally got to hear his side of the story. I think it was Lt. Forbes putting all those awful ideas into her head about Barnabas. Maybe seeing and speaking to him in person first, she might have changed her mind about killing herself. This way she would have seen him for herself and perhaps, just speaking to him, would have made all the difference in the matter.

[Raineypark]

I agree, Cassandra, that seeing and speaking with Barnabas beforehand, would HAVE to have made a difference in Naomi.

But the part of today's episodes that stands out for me is the incredible realization she comes to.....that Joshua DOES love her....that he attempted to shield her from these awful truths NOT because he thought she was a useless drunk, but because he truly LOVED her and wanted to spare her the pain!!

If she was rational and perceptive enough to realize this, in the midst of all that was going on around her, I find it hard to agree that she was just "too far gone" to act with purpose and strength of will.  She DOES act with determination....it's just the act she chooses that I find unreasonable.

Rainey

[Nancy]

I agree, Cassandra, that seeing and speaking with Barnabas beforehand, would HAVE to have made a difference in Naomi.

But the part of today's episodes that stands out for me is the incredible realization she comes to.....that Joshua DOES love her....that he attempted to shield her from these awful truths NOT because he thought she was a useless drunk, but because he truly LOVED her and wanted to spare her the pain!!

If she was rational and perceptive enough to realize this, in the midst of all that was going on around her, I find it hard to agree that she was just "too far gone" to act with purpose and strength of will.  She DOES act with determination....it's just the act she chooses that I find unreasonable.

Rainey

Rainey, just because she may have realized what Joshua was trying to do for her, it doesn't just up and erase all thall the times she was ignored, put down and how her overall view of her world is or the depth of her emotional arrest dulled by what we have to think is years of alcohol.  I don't think Joshua was always uncaring; I'm sure he had his moments, in private, that he was.  But he normally was not for whatever reason.   As Luciaphil said, Joshua did have feelings and he clearly cared about his family. An occasional act of kindness does not undo all the times the needed kindness and understanding was not present when it was needed.

Nancy

[Raineypark]

Nancy, I would absolutely agree with your position on this.....no argument from me that one act of kindness could possibly make up for the way Joshua has obviously behaved for many years.

Except for one thing.....

In my opinion, the scene, as it was played in today's episode,  was MEANT to be a denoument, a revelation, for Naomi.  If it WASN'T intended to be played that way, then Joan Bennet sure as hell took it into her own hands to MAKE it appear that way.  

It comes across that she IS forgiving him....probably because she knows she's going to leave him.  THAT's the part I have so much trouble with:

He loves her.  He admits it.  She realises it.  She forgives him.  Now....they have a son in terrible danger....what does she do?   She abandons him.

On top of the fact that I cannot fathom that behavior from a mother, I simply think the thing is badly written.  If they wanted us to accept that she was utterly despairing, they should have never had that intimate and revealing moment between Joshua and Naomi take place.  After that scene, her suicide just rings false.  IMHO.

Rainey

[Raineypark]

MB?.....Midnite?.....be sure to let me know when I've exhausted my allowable posts on a single thread......I MUST be getting close here!

Rainey

[Birdie]

Raineypack, don't worry you do have some valid points.  I feel bad that I put my personal things out there.  Guess I am just in a mood.  I do understand what you are saying.  

Birdie