Author Topic: "Filthy" DS Topic  (Read 3050 times)

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Offline Gerard

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Re: "Filthy" DS Topic
« Reply #15 on: March 16, 2017, 01:09:47 AM »
Just imagine, maybe in a parallel time/universe, they had actually cast JC as Elizabeth and BD as Julia.  Think of what it would've been like on the set.

Gerard

Offline Gothick

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Re: "Filthy" DS Topic
« Reply #16 on: March 17, 2017, 09:41:23 PM »
I enjoyed Crawford in her films, but she would have been disastrous casting as Liz.  In the original film MOMMIE DEAREST in which Legendary Faye Dunaway portrayed the no-holds-barred diva, they re-staged the time Joan decided to substitute for daughter Christina when the latter was hospitalized while appearing on a soap opera at some point in the mid to late 1960s.  It's a hilarious sequence.

Subsequently, an audio tape of Joan doing one of these scenes was uploaded to Youtube:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MG-DkuB1V28

I've known a number of people who criticized Joan Bennett's acting on DS.  I thought Joan B was superb.  She had the grit and the professionalism to carry off a scene even when she was unable to get the script down.  And when she was on... she was ON.  Joan C could also be excellent but not all actors can do the kind of act-on-your-feet work required in something like DS.

G.

Offline Gerard

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Re: "Filthy" DS Topic
« Reply #17 on: March 18, 2017, 01:02:53 AM »
I imagine, Gothic, if the "urban legend" is true that they considered Crawford for the role of Liz, her problems with - um, how shall we say? paraphrasing Elton John here - "vodka and Pepsi's" kept her from getting the part.  When she stood in for her daughter Christina in Secret Storm, they say she did fantastic in rehearsal - spot on.  But when the cameras rolled, that's when it all fell apart.  People on the set reportedly said that she got "nervous" when it was time for a take and that's when she had her vodka's-and Pepsi's-minus-the-Pepsi's" (like one of my favorite lines from Gilligan's Island when Lovey asked Thurston:  "Have you been eating brandy and peaches again without the peaches?"). 

I could clearly see Crawford doing the part of Liz.  She was classy, still a star despite Hollywood's sexist ageism, and in the public eye, especially after she altered her characterizations to become a "screen-scream-queen" after Whatever Happened to Baby Jane and all the William Castle films.  There could not have been a more perfect fit.  If that urban legend is true, what a loss.  Poor Crawford wouldn't be able to deal with the rigor of day-after-day, week-after-week TV series work without her cooler filled with vodka.  And when she had the cooler, she couldn't do it.  If she blew it in movies because she was schnockered, they could always do a re-take or come back and do it the next day.  It couldn't be done on live-to-tape TV.  Secret Storm, sadly, proved that. 

Gerard

Offline michael c

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Re: "Filthy" DS Topic
« Reply #18 on: March 18, 2017, 11:09:35 AM »
a friend of mine calls these actresses during this period, perhaps uncharitably, the "hatchet hags"...

as their "leading ladies" days wound down in the 1960s and 70s they were able to find work in the "horror" and "disaster" genres (as well as soap operas). perhaps launched with WHTBJ they played a series of ghoulish sendups of themselves and although a bit tarnished their names and presence lent cache to these often schlocky or "B" productions.
sleep 'til noon and your punishment shall be the dregs of the coffeepot.

Offline Gerard

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Re: "Filthy" DS Topic
« Reply #19 on: March 18, 2017, 07:00:52 PM »
It's fortunate that Hollywood now treats its senior actresses with a bit more dignity, style and appreciation.  They aren't "cast" off when they hit 50 (for the most part).  That had been an issue in Glitter City, even back in the early 1950's among writers, producers, etc., with industry self-critical anti-ageist, anti-sexist classics like Sunset Boulevard and All About Eve.  Unfortunately, Hollywood while criticizing itself did not do anything about it.  By the '60's, grande dames like Crawford and Davis had to resort to being "hatchet hags" (I love that term!) to keep their careers alive and pay the bills.  Even though most of their horror-schlock films were less than B-grade level, they took their roles seriously showing their professionalism.  Davis seemed to do better with higher-quality (if, in some cases, only slightly) films such as WHTBJ, Hush...Hush, Sweet Charlotte (with another "grande dame" Olivia de Havilland taking over for Crawford's part after Crawford was fired) and the Hammer classic The Nanny.  And there was also Dead Ringer.  She also, ironically, was directed by Dan Curtis in Burnt Offerings.  While taking roles in horror-schlock, she still managed to remain in mainstream movies (and TV mini-series productions) that were straight-forward drama, including The Whales of August

Poor Crawford never was able to achieve the same.  Virtually everything she made, whether on film or on TV, was horror-schlock until the day she died.  Not to say some weren't good - her work in Eyes in the pilot of Rod Serling's Night Gallery directed by a young, unknown guy named Steven Spielberg was truly brilliant and critically acclaimed.  But even in the worst-of-worst, she always did her best and rose above the schlocky material.  In her last film, the simply awful Trog, her performance stood out.  While the critics justifiably pounded the movie, they were kind to Crawford's performance, saying it was the only good thing about it.

By the '70's, using the "senior" actresses in roles switched from horror to disaster.  Shelly Winters received an Oscar nomination for The Poseidon Adventure.  De Havilland appeared in Airport 77 and the really dreadful The Swarm.  Gloria Swanson played herself in Airport 75.  And Jennifer Jones returned to the screen after many years of absence and was praised for her part in the uber-classic The Towering Inferno where she was teamed up the equal Hollywood legend Fred Astaire.  She's the only great classical actress, an Oscar winner, who fell to her death 1,000 feet from a glass elevator. 

Today, many senior actresses, in their 60's on up, can still find dignified work, from Faye Dunaway to Helen Mirren.  They can be in films, portraying women their age, that are huge commercial and critical successes.  People flock to theaters and Oscars are handed out.  They no longer have to play psycho-biddies running around with axes or sweet, old ladies being crushed and drowned under tsunamis.  Hollywood has come a long way from learning its lesson that it treats older women like garbage as portrayed in Sunset Boulevard.

Joe:  "Norma, there's nothing wrong with a woman who's 50."  Sunset Boulevard

Gerard

 

Offline michael c

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Re: "Filthy" DS Topic
« Reply #20 on: March 18, 2017, 08:09:42 PM »
today of course was also have the increasingly important category of "prestige television" for actresses over 50 to soften their landing and often find some of their best work. Lang in particular has had an incredibly successful second act in genre. 'Feud' certainly typifies that.
sleep 'til noon and your punishment shall be the dregs of the coffeepot.

Offline Uncle Roger

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Re: "Filthy" DS Topic
« Reply #21 on: March 18, 2017, 08:29:42 PM »
If Joan Crawford had been cast on DS in any capacity, I can just imagine how prominently Pepsi product placement would sneak its way into publicity pictures and maybe even into the program itself.
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Offline Gerard

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Re: "Filthy" DS Topic
« Reply #22 on: March 18, 2017, 09:21:46 PM »
Lang in particular has had an incredibly successful second act in genre. 'Feud' certainly typifies that.

And to think Lange got her "start" in the horrible '76 remake of King Kong.  One would think it would've sunk her career.  But she gave her all and put in a top-notch performance in a simply dreadful film.  Because of her intensity to perform her highly talented craft, she survived and thrived.  It's like how BD and JC had to do the same thing in the "twilight" of their careers but reversed.

Gerard

Offline Gerard

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Re: "Filthy" DS Topic
« Reply #23 on: March 18, 2017, 09:24:21 PM »
If Joan Crawford had been cast on DS in any capacity, I can just imagine how prominently Pepsi product placement would sneak its way into publicity pictures and maybe even into the program itself.
LOL, Uncle Roger!  Imagine, Roger would have to say as he held his sniffer:  "I'm having a brandy-and-Pepsi."  At the Blue Whale, customers would order a vodka-and-Pepsi. 

Gerard

Offline Uncle Roger

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Re: "Filthy" DS Topic
« Reply #24 on: March 18, 2017, 09:54:35 PM »
And David could beat Laverne DeFazio to the punch by drinking milk and Pepsi!😮😝😮
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Offline Gothick

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Re: "Filthy" DS Topic
« Reply #25 on: March 19, 2017, 05:37:11 AM »
The 1953 classic Queen Bee gives an idea of what JC would have been like as Liz.  A very different kind of matriarch but one full of imperious grandeur and in full possession of her personal authority over her beleaguered family.  I would say that Joan C's performance in that film illustrates just why she would not have been good casting for Liz.  Casting is not so much about ability as it is about nuance, personality and something imponderable we call "fit" for lack of any more articulate way of expressing it.

A major difference between our Joan and Joan C is that our Joan did have a background in theater and occasionally went on what she called "buck and truss" tours (I would guess in the 1950s and early 1960s when work had dried up due to the negative impact of the Walter Wanger scandal on her career).  She came from a theatrical family with a solid history in the craft.  I would say that that was what gave Joan the wherewithal to sail through her scenes with such quietly grounded focus even when her lines weren't perfect on DS.  As I've shared before, Nancy Barrett did tell me once how terrified Joan would look at moments when they were standing next to one another in the middle of a scene and Joan had suddenly dried.  But somehow, the camera never caught that.  I always felt that Joan, like Jonathan, made her difficulty with lines work in how she expressed the character of Liz.  The words not always being exact became, somehow, an expression of the iron will of an indomitable woman.  And we loved her for that.

G.

Offline Gerard

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Re: "Filthy" DS Topic
« Reply #26 on: March 19, 2017, 06:40:52 PM »
It is interesting, Gothic, that the one film Christina Crawford hates that her mother appeared in was Queen Bee, according to her autobiography Mommie Dearest.  She wrote that she was mortified while watching it on the big screen because the character portrayed by her mother was exactly the way she was in real life at home.

And you're right about Joan Bennett being probably the perfect fit for Elizabeth based upon her own career on stage and screen and the fact that she came from a family long established in the acting craft.  She stated in an interview (was it on The Dick Cavette Show?) that she was fortunate in being a "short-study," meaning she could learn and remember lines quickly, something required for filming five shows a week, one after another.  One could see on DS, if she blanked out, she knew how to incorporate it and improv if necessary, such as when she couldn't initially remember the name of the Brazilian city Belem.  And if a set blooper happened because some "stagery" went whoops! she just dealt with it such as, during the climactic scene of Carolyn screaming out "Mrs. Maguire!  Mrs. Maguire!" and Liz fled up the stairs, the door at the top got stuck.  She just pulled and pounded on it.  It was like the whole thing was almost scripted.  Many other actresses might've been unable to deal with these situations, and I think Crawford would've been the worst when "stuff happens."  Especially if she had a "Pepsi" just before going on the camera.

Gerard

Offline Mysterious Benefactor

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Re: "Filthy" DS Topic
« Reply #27 on: April 11, 2017, 01:42:54 AM »
a friend of mine calls these actresses during this period, perhaps uncharitably, the "hatchet hags"...

Apparently the whole genre of films like Whatever Happened to Baby Jane is called "Hagsploitation". Honestly, until I came across this article -

Feud’ is about the birth of the ‘Hagsploitation’ film: The 5 that came next

- I'd never heard of the term...

Offline Uncle Roger

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Re: "Filthy" DS Topic
« Reply #28 on: April 11, 2017, 01:51:53 AM »
I had always heard the genre referred to as Psycho Biddies.
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