DS - Could It Have Continued To Today?

[Miss_Winthrop]

Awhile back I had dowloaded an audio of Joan Bennett answering an interviewer's question that yes indeed she was Victoria's mother. If it's true than it would seem that for Liz, the scandal of announcing to the family that she was indeed Vicki's mother was more than she could bear. It was very bad socially back in those days to have a baby out of wedlock.    It does seem strange that out of the blue, a request for Vicki to come up to Collinwood and be a tutor is made. Someone's not talking at the Foundling Home in addition to Collinwood!

[Nelson Collins]

Awhile back I had dowloaded an audio of Joan Bennett answering an interviewer's question that yes indeed she was Victoria's mother. If it's true than it would seem that for Liz, the scandal of announcing to the family that she was indeed Vicki's mother was more than she could bear. It was very bad socially back in those days to have a baby out of wedlock.    It does seem strange that out of the blue, a request for Vicki to come up to Collinwood and be a tutor is made. Someone's not talking at the Foundling Home in addition to Collinwood!

Hmmm, that makes sense. If she was a blood relative of the Collinses, then she would be part and parcel of the curse that was placed on the family, given with all the wierd things she experienced, eh?

[Philippe Cordier]

Awhile back I had dowloaded an audio of Joan Bennett answering an interviewer's question that yes indeed she was Victoria's mother. If it's true than it would seem that for Liz, the scandal of announcing to the family that she was indeed Vicki's mother was more than she could bear. It was very bad socially back in those days to have a baby out of wedlock.    It does seem strange that out of the blue, a request for Vicki to come up to Collinwood and be a tutor is made. Someone's not talking at the Foundling Home in addition to Collinwood!

Hmmm, that makes sense. If she was a blood relative of the Collinses, then she would be part and parcel of the curse that was placed on the family, given with all the wierd things she experienced, eh?

I won't get into details here since this topic has been discussed so extensively in the past (and some would say yours truly has discussed it to death and in minutiae), but I would submit that the matter is not definitively settled, despite Joan Bennett's comments, and, I believe, never will be unless working notes by the writers involved ever come to light.  Suffice to say that other scenarios have been worked out that attempt to take into account other evidence and clues suggested by some of the DS writers, such as Francis Swann.  Discussions on the Victoria Winters mystery can no doubt be found in the archives.  Interestingly, she could be a Collins even if Elizabeth were not her mother.

 

[Nelson Collins]

Very true, Vlad.  IIRC, Tom and Chris Jennings are blood Collinses through the Quentin branch of the family, aren't they?

I still think that Victoria, if she is not Elizabeth's daughter, could have been Roger's by the Hanscom girl.  Were there ever any indications that Roger knew who Vicki was?   I understand he questioned Liz bringing Vicki on, but were there any hints that the knew there was more to her than meets the eye (part from his paranoia about Burke that is)?

[Philippe Cordier]

Very true, Vlad.  IIRC, Tom and Chris Jennings are blood Collinses through the Quentin branch of the family, aren't they?

I think that's the case, but I'm not too knowledgeable about that part of the family tree!

I still think that Victoria, if she is not Elizabeth's daughter, could have been Roger's by the Hanscom girl.  Were there ever any indications that Roger knew who Vicki was?   I understand he questioned Liz bringing Vicki on, but were there any hints that the knew there was more to her than meets the eye (part from his paranoia about Burke that is)?

I probably should have noted that a majority of DS fans probably support the Elizabeth as Victoria's mother idea, and, more importantly, the official position of Dan Curtis Productions today is that Elizabeth was Vicki's mother (i.e., this was the direction Mark Rainey and Elizabeth Massey received in writing their official DS novel, and I believe this was the position of the recent updated play presented at one of the recent festivals).  However, not everyone agrees that this was always the intent, and the issue was never resolved on the series itself.  VictoriaWinters and I, building on another viewers theory on the old VantageNet board, came up with what we thought was a plausible and intriguing scenario.  I admit it was a bit complicated to the extent that I don't recall the specifics now (it was discussed in a thread that may have been called "Victoria Winter's Parentage" maybe a year ago), and Betty Hanscombe was Elizabeth's half-sister (I think), and she was Victoria's mother.  Our theory did not involve Roger Collins, however.  Others have their own independent theories, but I felt ours took into account more of the evidence.

[Mysterious Benefactor]

the official position of Dan Curtis Productions today is that Elizabeth was Vicki's mother (i.e., this was the direction Mark Rainey and Elizabeth Massey received in writing their official DS novel, and I believe this was the position of the recent updated play presented at one of the recent festivals).  However, not everyone agrees that this was always the intent

Well, no, it wasn't the intent in the Shadows on the Wall bible - but that was written before production of the series actually began. However, it's not quite true that it wasn't the intent once DS went into production. As I've previously posted:

...
Joan Bennett had commented that she was told almost from the very outset that Liz was Vicki's mother and that's how she always played their relationship, and ... DS producer Robert Costello has commented that, after they hired Alexandra Moltke and saw her resemblance to Bennett, they decided to deviate from Art Wallace's bible and make Liz Vicki's mother.

and the issue was never resolved on the series itself.

But as I've also said, the great thing about fandom is that it's possible to debate and deconstruct all the unresolved questions on DS. And we should never refrain from engaging in debate simply because it seems as if a lingering question was resolved in a way other than during the course of the show (like Bennett and Costello's comments). Unless there's an explicit and definitive answer to a question in the actual episodes, then an issue is and always will be up for debate. 

[Gothick]

A lot of the scenes, especially in 1966, only make emotional sense if Liz is really Vicki's Mother.  For one thing, from the beginning, Vicki gets away with stuff that NOBODY else at Collinwood, not even David, can manage to do.

I also think that Liz's traumatised emotional reaction to Vicki's ultimate fate can only be explained if the reality is that Vicki was her firstborn.

G.

[Raineypark]

What ever was intended at any point of the production, in my opinion there can be no doubt regarding Joan Bennet's portrayal.  Liz's interactions with Vicki are that perfect combination of joy and anguish that exemplify most mother-daughter relationships.....intensified by the fact that only Liz knows it.

[Miss_Winthrop]

The thing that bothers me about it is that Liz left her in a cardboard box on a door step. What did she do, ring the doorbell and run? Another thing to think about is that about the time that Vicki was 2 yrs old the money started arriving at the Foudling Home. The timing for that was about the same time that the whole Paul Stoddard thing blew up. Paul was planning on sneaking out with the family jewels as it were. Since Liz prevented it, maybe she had a change of heart and the guilt truly set in so she decides to send money for her older daughter at the same time she saves her younger daughter's inheritance. We only know from Vicki that she was left on the doorstep in a cardboard box.  Maybe the circumstances of her arrival at the FH were very different than what she had been told. I believe in those days, parental rights were far superior to those of children and there might have been a gag order at the FH to not divulge information.  Nowadays children's rights to know who their parents are is much stronger.

[michael c]

just my two-cents,but i thought vicki was the daughter of betty hanscome and perhaps paul stoddard.i just can't imagine liz sending her own child away to be raised in a orphanage.by sending for vicki perhaps she was trying to "do right" by her missing husband.btw,at the fest last year i bought a copy of the photo that the portait of b.hanscome was copied from.the dealer told me it was a publicity still of alexandra c.1966.

[Raineypark]

I can't see a young woman in Liz Collins' predicament giving birth in secret and then driving to the foundling hospital herself.  She was the daughter of an important family.  She would have been attended by a physician who took the baby away at once, and older women of the family would have been aware of the birth and protected Liz from the prying of other family members.  They probably refused to tell her anything about where the baby was and she determined to find out for herself, and then began sending money, probably not realising that a large lump sum had accompanied the child in the first place. Not that the child would have learned any of this while she was growing up there.  Eventually Liz would have been the only surviving family member who knew what had happened and she decided to take the secret to her grave for fear of loosing the love and respect of both daughters.

End of fairy tale!!  

[Dr. Eric Lang]

I'd like to chime in on the original intent of this thread, but first comment on the "Hanscomb the Butler" myth (as it would most likely seem to be).

It was never established that there really was a butler named Hanscomb, and in fact it's unlikely there was not. When Victoria discovered an old payroll ledger in the East Wing with the name "B. Hanscomb" entered into it, she took it to Elizabeth's lawyer, Richard Garner, to see if perhaps "B. Hanscomb" was the same Betty Hanscomb who appeared in Sam's portrait. Richard told her that the Collins family once had a butler named Hanscomb, but after Vicki left Richard quickly placed a call to Elizabeth to warn her that Vicki had been snooping around, but not to worry because "He took care of it."

Now, if there was really a butler named Hanscomb then Richard simply told Vicki the truth and took care of nothing. Therefore he must have made up the story as a cover. Elizabeth, thus tipped off, warned Roger to back up her story if Vicki mentioned Betty Hanscomb. Roger did not remember there ever being a butler named Hanscomb, nor did Sam Evans.

Anyway, in regards to this topic thread and could DS have continued to today, I'd have to say that in order for it to have done so it probably would have needed to be less of a success than it was. The show crossed over from soap to fad and that spelled its death. Fads burn out quickly. They would have needed to keep the show more traditional, even with supernatural elements, and figure out a way for it to work no matter who left the show since Jonathan Frid/Barnabas was the main draw and would no doubt have left at some time. In hindsight they might have been better off if Barnabas had been killed off after his initial 13 weeks as originally planned instead of installing him as the permanent superhero, thus relying solely on his presence for continued success and survival. DS might not have become the fad it did, but could have continued to build on its early success and prove itself with reliable, continued quality of writing and acting.

[michael c]

just two more cents...when d.s.began vicki was about 20 years old and liz was in her mid-to-late 50's.so liz would not have been some confused "girl" who couldn't handle the situation at the time vicki was born.she would have been well into her 30's and probably found a better way to deal with it than send the baby to a foundling home.

[Miss_Winthrop]

Dr. Lang: I had totally forgotten about that call from Garner to Liz after Vicki left his office.  So I'm understanding what you're saying is that while Richard didn't tell a lie to Vicki he basically didn't give her all the information and Liz's secret was safe? So doesn't that right there really prove the Collins family connection? Liz really wanted Vicki's investigation stopped at that point. She led her right into a dead end. At what point would Liz have revealed herself? I hate not ever knowing the answer to that one!

[Dr. Eric Lang]

So I'm understanding what you're saying is that while Richard didn't tell a lie to Vicki he basically didn't give her all the information and Liz's secret was safe?

No, I'm saying her told her a lie. She asked him who B. Hanscomb was and he replied B. Hanscomb was a butler who worked for the Collins family. He then turned around and proudly reported to Liz that he "took care of" Vicki's snooping. But if there was really a butler named Hanscomb, what exactly did he "take care of" if he told her the truth? Regardless of whether or not he had other information he witheld, he would have given Vicki a new lead, and therefore not in a position to tell Elizabeth he had "taken care of it." The only possible conclusion is that there was no butler named Hanscomb, and B. Hanscomb in the payroll ledger was in fact Betty Hanscomb, being paid by the Collins family for something we don't know about and never will.

All further speculation is just that - speculation. However, it seems pretty obvious the story about there being a butler named Hanscomb was a fabrication.