Discuss - Ep #1198

[Watching Project]

Robservations #1198

FAREWELL, BARNABAS, JULIA, ANGELIQUE, LIZ, & STOKES!

All five of those characters make their final appearance on DS in this ep...

[Janet the Wicked]

Great episode.

Man, I love soap opera fights. Arms flinging in the air, missed punches and phony blows. John Wayne and Randolph Scott duking (pardon the pun), it out, they’re not, but they’re very entertaining.

Trask disappearing in PT time. Too funny. Now that’s what I call payback.

I do not and never will buy that Barnabas was suddenly struck with love for Angelique. No way. Not after everything she’d done to him. But then, he’s pretty darn fickle. Let’s see. How many reincarnations of Josette did he fall in love with? And then came Roxanne. But, really, I can’t imagine Barnabas forgiving Angelique of all her misdeeds and pronouncing his love for her.

The whole stairway to the future thing, the psychedelic colors… Well, it reminded me of The Wizard of Oz. “Now click your heels together three times and repeat after me… There’s no place like Collinwood.”

Leave it to Stokes to check the icebox. I bet he went for the cheese first.
And Julia announcing how comfy her clothes are while adjusting her girdle. Too funny.

Yay! Someone in PT time actually had the intelligence to move that bust out of the window.

[MagnusTrask]

Goodbye, almost all of the major characters of DS.   Don't stay away too long, or you may not find you have a home to go to when you get back...

Angelique doesn't feel the impact of the bullet, but just stands there silently suffering as beautifully and as dramatically as possible.   When I get shot, I'm yelling my head off.

Lamar is stabbed fatally, then has a new universe heaped upon his plate at the same time.   I'm bleeding, I'm dying, uh... where am I?!   This is one of my favorite DS moments.   Also the shortest of all universe interactions.

Julia is unsure as to what expression to register, when seeing Angelique dying.   Why won't Barnabas stay for A's funeral?   He can actually go to funerals, now.  Did Desmond offer the option of not doing so because he'd just sort of gotten used to the fact that Barnabas never went to any?   I'll bet there was no actual burial for A...

1971 RT!   What there is of it.   Nicely done.   Yes, when Elliot spoke of all the food in the fridge, I imagined him having poked around for cheese; better yet, standing there with a big wedge and gnawing on it while speaking.    What if, say, the cupboards were fully stocked with Boo-Berry breakfast cereal?   Would that have been the sign that Gerard etc. were still there?

184(0?)1 PT!   Julia, Flora in blue and green... it's PT alright.    Goodbye Desmond too.

[Lydia]

I do not and never will buy that Barnabas was suddenly struck with love for Angelique. No way. Not after everything she’d done to him. But then, he’s pretty darn fickle. Let’s see. How many reincarnations of Josette did he fall in love with? And then came Roxanne. But, really, I can’t imagine Barnabas forgiving Angelique of all her misdeeds and pronouncing his love for her.

You're being too global.  And so was Barnabas, though in a different way.  Barnabas has seen Angelique lift his curse, and he has seen her risk her life to save Quentin, and he assumes that beneath all of the wicked things that Angelique has done, there beats a heart as true and warm as any man could desire, and that she's just bursting with compassion for her fellow man.  Of course Barnabas loves her!  He believes (extrapolating a little here) that if, like him, she had seen the unhappy people in 1841 parallel time, then she, like him, would wish she could help them.  Of course he's wrong.  Angelique still doesn't care about anybody except Barnabas.  She's willing to save any Tom, Dick, or Harry if it will please Barnabas - but only if it will please Barnabas.  Oh, golly is he ever going to be disappointed the next time he deals with her!  Because of course - in the universe of the uncanceled series - she will be back.  Maybe she'll fool him for a while, but ultimately he'll be disillusioned.  Julia will be there to pick up the pieces, and he'll indulge in a few lamentations to Julia and extol Julia's friendship in a way that will make the hearts of all BJ shippers go pit-a-pat - and then he'll go hell-for-the-leather after the next sweet young thing who catches his eye.

Can Desmond really destroy that staircase?  Once it has extended itself to other time periods, can it ever be completely eradicated?  I think it's like an invasive plant, laying down additional roots in every millisecond of time from the Big Bang to the Restaurant at the End of the Universe.  Whenever Desmond comes back to that staircase, however many times he destroys it, it will still - or rather, again - be there.

Trask disappearing in PT time.

Cool moment, when suddenly Trask is no longer visible to anybody in our time.

And now we, like Trask, are trapped in parallel time, and the series, like Trask, will die there.  Thank heaven for 1841 parallel time.  If the series had ended with 1840, I would have thought, "It was running out of steam.  Maybe it's a good thing it was canceled."  Loving parallel time 1841 as I do, I think, "Many more fantastic storylines could have been done, and would have been done, if only it hadn't been canceled."  It's sad, but I prefer it that way.

Oh, gosh, I love parallel time Flora and parallel time Julia together.  "We must be very clever!"  That's what Roger said to Quentin in episode 964.  It struck me funny then, too.

Strange to think that, with this post, I have written a post about every episode in which Barnabas and Julia (yes, and Stokes and Angelique, but not Elizabeth) appeared.  There's still, always, more to say.

[MagnusTrask]

I think you're right, Lydia, about Barnabas and Angelique.   I think A did change to some extent, though, in some way that would have made things interesting later, if explored, and not just ignored.

My concern with Desmond destroying the staircase is that he might retroactively undo everything B&J did.   I think there's some key point, maybe not this moment when Desmond has his axe out, when if the Stairway were tampered with, all the events we've seen unfold would collapse and un-happen.  I see the Stairway as a much more precarious phenomenon than you do.   It's all about "physical space" and getting all the dimensions exactly right, so if you change the Stairway even a little, it might become just a staircase.

I was thinking that maybe Desmond's act might result in B,J,&E not being able to travel in time any farther forward than the few hours it took Desmond to chop away.

Anyway, really, I'm starting to think that the Stairway was responsible for the "temporal bubble" that this sort-of alternate 1995-1970-1840 existed in, and that once Desmond chopped it up, the bubble popped, and things went back to the way they'd been "before".   So, B&J's actions in the "past" didn't save Liz and Collinwood, but rather Desmond's chopping.

And now we, like Trask, are trapped in parallel time, and the series, like Trask, will die there.

You're right!   Good point!

Unfortunately, a lot of us do feel that sense of tiredness you describe, but because of 1841PT, and if things had ended with 1840RT, at least there would have been a sort of conclusion, with the present's happy ending, and some satisfying concluding episodes with good writing for 1840RT.   I think PT1841 is satisfying for DS fans who are more soap-inclined (or who enjoy those sweeping epic etc. romantic novels) than horror-inclined, and that wouldn't be me.   I like romance worked in amongst the other aspects, like horror, not stared at point-blank... I can tell 1841PT is well done, I noticed that finally last time around, but it's such a different show that the horror music is out of place.

[Lydia]

Magnus, it's not only the Bramwell-Catherine story that I like in 1841 parallel time.  I also like seeing how one thing, the Room, distorts all the relationships between the residents of Collinwood.  In 1897 (which I love) you've got unexpected plot twists flying at you from everywhere.  In PT1841, you've got just one thing poisoning everything.  Or anyway, that's my memory of it.

[MagnusTrask]

I could use as many of these kinds of observations as you have to offer, Lydia, as we go into 1841PT.   They'll help me, and maybe others, to get more out of it.  Thanks.   This one may help explain why I have taken to the storyline less though... it's when lots of plotlines intersect in unpredictable ways that I really get interested.   This one's about Wuthering Heights and the Lottery.   Perhaps I get claustrophobic.   I might perceive and care more about the distortions caused in these characters' lives, if I'd known the characters before any of this happened.   

[Joeytrom]

That sounds like a reasonable answer as to why 1840 doesn't exactly mesh with 1897.

This has just led me to think that 1897 Edith may have actually been married to Quentin I, who died in 1863, and she was Tad's mother (The Thaddeus Collins who fought in the Civil War) in addition to the son who had Edward, Judith, Quentin II, & Carl.

Anyway, really, I'm starting to think that the Stairway was responsible for the "temporal bubble" that this sort-of alternate 1995-1970-1840 existed in, and that once Desmond chopped it up, the bubble popped, and things went back to the way they'd been "before".   So, B&J's actions in the "past" didn't save Liz and Collinwood, but rather Desmond's chopping.

[Mysterious Benefactor]

Barnabas has seen Angelique lift his curse, and he has seen her risk her life to save Quentin, and he assumes that beneath all of the wicked things that Angelique has done, there beats a heart as true and warm as any man could desire, and that she's just bursting with compassion for her fellow man.  Of course Barnabas loves her!  He believes (extrapolating a little here) that if, like him, she had seen the unhappy people in 1841 parallel time, then she, like him, would wish she could help them.  Of course he's wrong.  Angelique still doesn't care about anybody except Barnabas.  She's willing to save any Tom, Dick, or Harry if it will please Barnabas - but only if it will please Barnabas.  Oh, golly is he ever going to be disappointed the next time he deals with her!  Because of course - in the universe of the uncanceled series - she will be back.  Maybe she'll fool him for a while, but ultimately he'll be disillusioned.  Julia will be there to pick up the pieces, and he'll indulge in a few lamentations to Julia and extol Julia's friendship in a way that will make the hearts of all BJ shippers go pit-a-pat - and then he'll go hell-for-the-leather after the next sweet young thing who catches his eye.

I think you're right, Lydia, about Barnabas and Angelique.

I do too. And even though we've discussed it many time before, it can never be stressed too often that the twist of Barnabas realizing and then declaring his love for Angelique is tried and true soap plotting. At some point on every soap enemies of the opposite sex always come to have the epiphany moment when they realize their hate for each other was really love. And though the courses of their relationships play out differently for each couple, 9 times out of 10 the relationships never work out in the end - and I'd bet Barn and Ang would have faced that same result.

I think A did change to some extent, though, in some way that would have made things interesting later

It could have been fascinating to see. But alas...

And now we, like Trask, are trapped in parallel time, and the series, like Trask, will die there.

You're right!   Good point!

Actually, Lydia never meant anything like that, as is clear from what she goes on to say.  

And as Lydia goes on to say:

Thank heaven for 1841 parallel time.  If the series had ended with 1840, I would have thought, "It was running out of steam.  Maybe it's a good thing it was canceled."  Loving parallel time 1841 as I do, I think, "Many more fantastic storylines could have been done, and would have been done, if only it hadn't been canceled."

Exactly.

Unfortunately, a lot of us do feel that sense of tiredness you describe, but because of 1841PT, and if things had ended with 1840RT, at least there would have been a sort of conclusion, with the present's happy ending, and some satisfying concluding episodes with good writing for 1840RT.   I think PT1841 is satisfying for DS fans who are more soap-inclined (or who enjoy those sweeping epic etc. romantic novels) than horror-inclined, and that wouldn't be me.   I like romance worked in amongst the other aspects, like horror, not stared at point-blank... I can tell 1841PT is well done, I noticed that finally last time around, but it's such a different show that the horror music is out of place.

I don't think so at all. 1841PT's soap elements might appear more blatant to some, but it has no more soap elements than most DS storylines. In fact, I'd go so far as to say that every single DS storyline relies heavily on classic soap elements - and chief among them is always love in all its forms and betrayal of love. Plus 1841PT has plenty of its own supernatural elements to it - certainly more than the whole intro to Barnabas/Liz blackmail period did. What might tend to make 1841PT seem more soapy is the fact that for the first time in a long time the supernatural elements aren't going off in 100 different directions at once and are instead focused and interwoven really well.

I also like seeing how one thing, the Room, distorts all the relationships between the residents of Collinwood.

Yes, the mystery of THE ROOM is great fun to see unfold and its backstory is extremely well plotted.

[MagnusTrask]

And now we, like Trask, are trapped in parallel time, and the series, like Trask, will die there.

You're right!   Good point!

Actually, Lydia never meant anything like that, as is clear from what she goes on to say.  

Like what?  That's a quote.   It was just a nice observation about Lamar and the viewers being in comparable positions though; I wasn't reading anything further into it.

As for the horror and soap elements in 1841PT, when I watch it and wonder what it lacks for me, I do notice a lot more relationship discussion going on for long stretches without a horror element, and in those scenes I notice how inappropriate the viola/cello music seems.   I can't speak for other soap operas, not being a fan of them, but the tone does change.   Just trying to find words for my impressions.   You could tell me to compare to the earliest ewpisodes in 1966 which I like very much, that have little or no horror element.  That's true too.   I don't really have an explanation.

[Mysterious Benefactor]

Actually, Lydia never meant anything like that, as is clear from what she goes on to say.  

Like what?  That's a quote.   It was just a nice observation about Lamar and the viewers being in comparable positions though; I wasn't reading anything further into it.

My point was that to take that particular remark away from the context of what Lydia goes on to say can easily imply that the point she was making was that with the switch to 1841PT the audience as well as the show itself is trapped in a bad storyline and thus it dies there. But within the full context of what she says it's clear that isn't what she was saying because after making that remark she goes on to say how much she loves 1841PT. However, I can now see from your explanation that that wasn't the implication you were trying to make by taking her remark away from its context.  

As for the horror and soap elements in 1841PT, when I watch it and wonder what it lacks for me, I do notice a lot more relationship discussion going on for long stretches without a horror element, and in those scenes I notice how inappropriate the viola/cello music seems.

I can't really say as I've ever found any of the music to be inappropriate. Perhaps when one of those scenes comes up for you, you can comment on it at that time?

One thing I have noticed, especially since watching the pre-Barn eps, is that music that I'd come to associate with certain types of scenes in the later storylines wasn't always used that way, particularly in the pre-Barn days, For instance, there's one piece that I always associated with the Leviathans and I was quite surprised when I found out it had actually been introduced on the show in the pre-Barn period and was originally used to underscore very different types of scenes than I was most used to seeing it used for. So I suppose that caused me to reexamine what that particular piece was supposed to convey and why DS' music supervisors had believed it worked well for each of the types of scenes they'd used it for...

[DarkLady]

Late to the party, I know, but I like the point about the Stairway through Time spreading its tentacles (or spores) throughout various storylines--or it would have if the series had continued.

This has just led me to think that 1897 Edith may have actually been married to Quentin I, who died in 1863, and she was Tad's mother (The Thaddeus Collins who fought in the Civil War) in addition to the son who had Edward, Judith, Quentin II, & Carl.

Do we know that Q1 died in 1863? I don't think I ever did, but I bow to your superior knowledge.

I have never really bought the whole Barn-really-loves-Angelique last-minute twist and consider it a sort of deus-ex-machina device to wind the RT 1840 story before we get to the goodies of 1840 PT, one of my faves.

I've always thought it was a nice little touch that Barnabas never finds out what happened to Trask after he vanished into PT.

Good point about The Room. I like the way they give us the background just a little at a time--very nicely done.

I suppose those who care about love’s young dream can imagine that with nothing standing in their way now, Jeremy Grimes and Carrie Stokes can finally get together. Barnabas and Julia surely gave them some friendly advice before leaving 1840!

Joan Bennett and Grayson Hall have the distinction of being the only cast members to appear in three time periods in a single episode: 1840RT, 1971RT, and 1840PT.

[MagnusTrask]

That sounds like a reasonable answer as to why 1840 doesn't exactly mesh with 1897.

This has just led me to think that 1897 Edith may have actually been married to Quentin I, who died in 1863, and she was Tad's mother (The Thaddeus Collins who fought in the Civil War) in addition to the son who had Edward, Judith, Quentin II, & Carl.

Thanks, but I think it's only the start of an explanation.   I think we'd have to connect the Stairway and PT room, since it all started when they left PT1970.

I'm pretty sure that Grandmamamama talked about having been married to Gabriel, whom she believed the family had treated badly.

[DarkLady]

PT Flora and Julia are as impeccably dressed and coiffed after their grim chore as they were before. They must have attentive (and very discreet) ladies' maids! 

[Watching Project]

FAREWELL, JERRY LACY!

Jerry Lacy makes his final appearance on DS in this ep...