Victoria Winter's Parents

[Philippe Cordier]

Now that Victoria Winters has left Collinwood, Collinsport, and the Dark Shadows story, it may be an appropriate time to re-examine the central mystery about her:  Who were her parents, and what was her connection with the Collins family?  Why did Elizabeth Collins Stoddard provide Victoria with a position at Collinwood, and why did she deny there was any particular meaning in her having done so to Roger, Vicki, and everyone else?

I apologize if I've somehow missed any recent threads dealing with this topic, but I haven't seen any direct discussion of this for some time.

I myself have vacillated on the solution to this mystery.  During my first viewing of the series when Sci-Fi began airing DS about four years ago beginning with the Laura the Phoenix storyline, I saw little evidence for Elizabeth being Vicki's mother, as has often been suggested.  Continuing to watch the show, the alternate possibility that Paul Stoddard was Vicki's father resulting from an affair seemed a much more likely and appealing possibility.

I later rethought this position when I saw the early episodes for the first time.  There seemed to be hints that Elizabeth had a guilty conscience with respect to Vicki -- she obviously knew more than she was telling about Vicki's history and had a particular purpose in bringing her to Collinwood.  At about that time, I saw an interview on TV with the adopted daughter of an actress who later discovered that her adoptive mother was actually her real mother, but I don't believe she ever confronted her mother with this information, and her mother (the famous actress) continued the charade.  (I can't remember any more who this actress was, but apparently this was an out-of-wedlock birth perhaps in the 1940s.)  This made me consider that something like that really could happen, that the psychology behind the mother's motives was realistic, though perhaps difficult to understand today.  Society has changed, sometimes for the better, in the past few decades.

Still, did anyone really get any hint when Vicki disappeared into the past that Elizabeth was truly watching her daughter dissolve before her eyes?  Any hints about such a relationship seem to have dropped by the wayside long ago.

In the series' early episodes, there seemed to be an effort to draw attention to the physical similarities between Elizabeth and Victoria.

One complication was the Betty Hanscomb portrait or drawing.  Although some (perhaps it was SheilaMarch) have theorized that this was actually a portrait of Elizabeth ("Betty") being a nickname, I am doubtful of that possibility.  It was established that there was a "B. Hanscomb" employed as a butler at Collinwood 20 - 25 years earlier.  I believe there was mention that he had a daughter, although I'm not 100 percent certain about this; however, it is a logical inference.  Sam Evans described Betty to Vicki as a local girl who had left town about 25 year earlier and died shortly after.

In keeping with the Gothic novel tradition (including Dickens, et al.), as well as common circumstances during the mid 20th century, this was almost certainly an implication that poor Betty had gotten pregnant and left town to have her illegitimate baby.

What interest would Elizabeth have in bringing the illegitimate daughter of a Collins butler to work at Collinwood so many years later?  And why would Elizabeth apparently have provided financial support to Vicki via the Garner law firm over the years?

It seem inconceivable that a young woman of Elizabeth Collins' status could have been pregnant and given birth without anyone knowing at the time -- and then have left the baby in a basket outside an orphanage.  No, it's far more likely that these would have been the actions of a much poorer girl with few connections -- someone like Betty Hanscombe, whose portrait shows her as almost a dead-ringer for Victoria Winters.

Elizabeth, it is to be noted, denied seeing any resemblance between the portrait and Victoria.  It is probable that she has an invested interest in keeping the truth of Vicki's parents from her.

That truth -- which was postulated by "Bob" on the VantageNet forum in July 2001 (I'm guessing this was Bob the Bartender, unless there was another Bob posting at that time whom I don't recall) -- was that Elizabeth was covering for another member of the Collins family:  her father, Jamison Collins.

Bob suggested that Jamison had a dalliance with his butler's daughter, and Elizabeth stepped in to help the girl when she (sometime later, in my opinion) learned what had happened.  Vicki, then, would be Elizabeth (and Roger's) half-sister -- hence Elizabeth's emotional connection and clandestine support.  In those days, few people, especially those of the Collins family's status -- would have been comfortable acknowledging an illegitimate half-sibling.  Yet we know that Elizabeth is a good, caring woman (witness her tender feelings toward David throughout the series, to Amy, etc.).  Her heart goes out to Vicki, but the emotional bond is not as strong as it would be had Vicki been a full sister or her own daughter.

This hypothesis also fits with what we later learn about Paul Stoddard, namely that Carolyn was his first-born child, whom he made a bargain over with "Mr. Best" (Death, personified).

This theory accounts for Vicki's resemblance to Elizabeth and also, very interestingly, makes her a Collins.

I believe Bob's theory resolves the mystery most satisfactorily and satisfyingly.  I give Bob the credit for supplying the outlines of this theory, which I have further fleshed out.  I would be interested in knowing if this was Bob's original idea or if he was drawing on someone else's previous suggestions.

I have identified four potential objections to this theory, none of which present insurmountable obstacles, in my opinion:

1.  Shadows on the Wall, the "story bible" for the series, states that Paul Stoddard is Victoria Winter's father, if memory serves correct.  I do find this an attractive possibility, but we should remember that a number of substantive changes and departures were made from this story bible as the series unfolded.  (For example, Roger was to be wicked and fall off Widow's hill very early on.)

2.  Joan Bennett's personal belief/testimony.  Miss Bennett apparently stated at a DS festival that she believed Elizabeth was Victoria's mother.  If Bennett acted under this assumption in giving an added layer of emotional depth to her performance (and I believe she did, at least early on), that still doesn't mean that she was in-the-know herself as to the solution to the mystery, just that this was a personal choice she made as an actor.

3.  Sam Evan's statement that he had painted Betty Hanscomb's portrait 25 years earlier, and that Betty had died a year or so later.  The problem this raises is that this would mean that Betty died at least a couple of years before Victoria was born.  It's possible that Sam was mistaken, and gave "25 years ago" as a rough estimate as to when the portrait was done.  I think there is a more likely and interesting possibility, though.  I think he was deliberately concealing the actual date and time frame from Vicki.  Sam most likely wished to "protect" Vicki from learning too much -- from concluding, as he obviously suspected, that Betty Hanscomb was Victoria's mother and that the Collins family was somehow involved.  Thirty-odd years ago, illegitimate births were still hushed up, especially in small towns, considered shameful by many, and Sam would hardly have felt it was his place to reveal his suspicions to Vicki.  So he throws her off the trail by padding the time frame by a year or two.

Significantly, Elizabeth does not tell Vicki, when confronted with the Betty Hansomb/portrait evidence that Betty had died three or four years before Vicki was born (she would know Vicki's age, of course).  Had this been the case, though, Elizabeth would almost certainly have said so.  Though she denied a resemblance between Betty's likeness and Vicki, she hadn't apparently felt comfortable with lying about factual matters that Vicki might someday check into, such as the date of Betty's death.

She would, however, wish to discourage Vicki from making any connection between Betty Hanscomb and the Collins family, and hence deny the physical resemblance.

4.  Finally, Dreams of the Dark.  This novel was sanctioned by DCP and reveals Elizabeth to have been Vicki's mother.  Although I have a great deal of positive things to say about this book, I have to say I will take issue with it on this one point.  The clues suggested in a 30-year-old daily drama were obviously complicated and not likely to be fresh in the minds of readers in 1999 or so, nor would many of today's readers be expected to be concerned with the minutiae of the matter.  It's obviously more emotionally powerful to have a simplified solution at the end of Dreams of the Dark that fits with many of the hints and suspicions some viewers would vaguely have remembered.  But remember that the actual solution isn't likely to have been the most obvious one -- the writers at the time most likely had a "twist" in mind, but sadly the entire mystery was completely dropped before this was revealed.

Although the scene in DOD where this was revealed was extremely well-executed, one aspect of it did not ring true for me -- and that was Elizabeth's apparent habitual occult ritual of protection for Vicki.  There is never any indication in the series that Elizabeth would have employed the occult, especially before the appearance of Barnabas on the scene.  Even then, Elizabeth voiced strong objections and even fear about the initial seances.  What we do see with respect to Elizabeth throughout the entire series is that she refers to prayer at times of distress.  It is more likely that Elizabeth's beliefs and practices fell within the conventional confines of a matron of a family steeped in tradition, and that if she had wished for the protection of Victoria from the time of her birth onward, she would have relied on the means most familiar to her with which she was comfortable -- prayer, not the practice of occult rituals.

[Philippe Cordier]

Now that Victoria Winters has left Collinwood, Collinsport, and the Dark Shadows story, it may be an appropriate time to re-examine the central mystery about her:  Who were her parents, and what was her connection with the Collins family?  Why did Elizabeth Collins Stoddard provide Victoria with a position at Collinwood, and why did she deny there was any particular meaning in her having done so to Roger, Vicki, and everyone else?

I apologize if I've somehow missed any recent threads dealing with this topic, but I haven't seen any direct discussion of this for some time.

I myself have vacillated on the solution to this mystery.  During my first viewing of the series when Sci-Fi began airing DS about four years ago beginning with the Laura the Phoenix storyline, I saw little evidence for Elizabeth being Vicki's mother, as has often been suggested.  Continuing to watch the show, the alternate possibility that Paul Stoddard was Vicki's father resulting from an affair seemed a much more likely and appealing possibility.

I later rethought this position when I saw the early episodes for the first time.  There seemed to be hints that Elizabeth had a guilty conscience with respect to Vicki -- she obviously knew more than she was telling about Vicki's history and had a particular purpose in bringing her to Collinwood.  At about that time, I saw an interview on TV with the adopted daughter of an actress who later discovered that her adoptive mother was actually her real mother, but I don't believe she ever confronted her mother with this information, and her mother (the famous actress) continued the charade.  (I can't remember any more who this actress was, but apparently this was an out-of-wedlock birth perhaps in the 1940s.)  This made me consider that something like that really could happen, that the psychology behind the mother's motives was realistic, though perhaps difficult to understand today.  Society has changed, sometimes for the better, in the past few decades.

Still, did anyone really get any hint when Vicki disappeared into the past that Elizabeth was truly watching her daughter dissolve before her eyes?  Any hints about such a relationship seem to have dropped by the wayside long ago.

In the series' early episodes, there seemed to be an effort to draw attention to the physical similarities between Elizabeth and Victoria.

One complication was the Betty Hanscomb portrait or drawing.  Although some (perhaps it was SheilaMarch) have theorized that this was actually a portrait of Elizabeth ("Betty") being a nickname, I am doubtful of that possibility.  It was established that there was a "B. Hanscomb" employed as a butler at Collinwood 20 - 25 years earlier.  I believe there was mention that he had a daughter, although I'm not 100 percent certain about this; however, it is a logical inference.  Sam Evans described Betty to Vicki as a local girl who had left town about 25 year earlier and died shortly after.

In keeping with the Gothic novel tradition (including Dickens, et al.), as well as common circumstances during the mid 20th century, this was almost certainly an implication that poor Betty had gotten pregnant and left town to have her illegitimate baby.

What interest would Elizabeth have in bringing the illegitimate daughter of a Collins butler to work at Collinwood so many years later?  And why would Elizabeth apparently have provided financial support to Vicki via the Garner law firm over the years?

It seem inconceivable that a young woman of Elizabeth Collins' status could have been pregnant and given birth without anyone knowing at the time -- and then have left the baby in a basket outside an orphanage.  No, it's far more likely that these would have been the actions of a much poorer girl with few connections -- someone like Betty Hanscombe, whose portrait shows her as almost a dead-ringer for Victoria Winters.

Elizabeth, it is to be noted, denied seeing any resemblance between the portrait and Victoria.  It is probable that she has an invested interest in keeping the truth of Vicki's parents from her.

That truth -- which was postulated by "Bob" on the VantageNet forum in July 2001 (I'm guessing this was Bob the Bartender, unless there was another Bob posting at that time whom I don't recall) -- was that Elizabeth was covering for another member of the Collins family:  her father, Jamison Collins.

Bob suggested that Jamison had a dalliance with his butler's daughter, and Elizabeth stepped in to help the girl when she (sometime later, in my opinion) learned what had happened.  Vicki, then, would be Elizabeth (and Roger's) half-sister -- hence Elizabeth's emotional connection and clandestine support.  In those days, few people, especially those of the Collins family's status -- would have been comfortable acknowledging an illegitimate half-sibling.  Yet we know that Elizabeth is a good, caring woman (witness her tender feelings toward David throughout the series, to Amy, etc.).  Her heart goes out to Vicki, but the emotional bond is not as strong as it would be had Vicki been a full sister or her own daughter.

This hypothesis also fits with what we later learn about Paul Stoddard, namely that Carolyn was his first-born child, whom he made a bargain over with "Mr. Best" (Death, personified).

This theory accounts for Vicki's resemblance to Elizabeth and also, very interestingly, makes her a Collins.

I believe Bob's theory resolves the mystery most satisfactorily and satisfyingly.  I give Bob the credit for supplying the outlines of this theory, which I have further fleshed out.  I would be interested in knowing if this was Bob's original idea or if he was drawing on someone else's previous suggestions.

I have identified four potential objections to this theory, none of which present insurmountable obstacles, in my opinion:

1.  Shadows on the Wall, the "story bible" for the series, states that Paul Stoddard is Victoria Winter's father, if memory serves correct.  I do find this an attractive possibility, but we should remember that a number of substantive changes and departures were made from this story bible as the series unfolded.  (For example, Roger was to be wicked and fall off Widow's hill very early on.)

2.  Joan Bennett's personal belief/testimony.  Miss Bennett apparently stated at a DS festival that she believed Elizabeth was Victoria's mother.  If Bennett acted under this assumption in giving an added layer of emotional depth to her performance (and I believe she did, at least early on), that still doesn't mean that she was in-the-know herself as to the solution to the mystery, just that this was a personal choice she made as an actor.

3.  Sam Evan's statement that he had painted Betty Hanscomb's portrait 25 years earlier, and that Betty had died a year or so later.  The problem this raises is that this would mean that Betty died at least a couple of years before Victoria was born.  It's possible that Sam was mistaken, and gave "25 years ago" as a rough estimate as to when the portrait was done.  I think there is a more likely and interesting possibility, though.  I think he was deliberately concealing the actual date and time frame from Vicki.  Sam most likely wished to "protect" Vicki from learning too much -- from concluding, as he obviously suspected, that Betty Hanscomb was Victoria's mother and that the Collins family was somehow involved.  Thirty-odd years ago, illegitimate births were still hushed up, especially in small towns, considered shameful by many, and Sam would hardly have felt it was his place to reveal his suspicions to Vicki.  So he throws her off the trail by padding the time frame by a year or two.

Significantly, Elizabeth does not tell Vicki, when confronted with the Betty Hansomb/portrait evidence that Betty had died three or four years before Vicki was born (she would know Vicki's age, of course).  Had this been the case, though, Elizabeth would almost certainly have said so.  Though she denied a resemblance between Betty's likeness and Vicki, she hadn't apparently felt comfortable with lying about factual matters that Vicki might someday check into, such as the date of Betty's death.

She would, however, wish to discourage Vicki from making any connection between Betty Hanscomb and the Collins family, and hence deny the physical resemblance.

4.  Finally, Dreams of the Dark.  This novel was sanctioned by DCP and reveals Elizabeth to have been Vicki's mother.  Although I have a great deal of positive things to say about this book, I have to say I will take issue with it on this one point.  The clues suggested in a 30-year-old daily drama were obviously complicated and not likely to be fresh in the minds of readers in 1999 or so, nor would many of today's readers be expected to be concerned with the minutiae of the matter.  It's obviously more emotionally powerful to have a simplified solution at the end of Dreams of the Dark that fits with many of the hints and suspicions some viewers would vaguely have remembered.  But remember that the actual solution isn't likely to have been the most obvious one -- the writers at the time most likely had a "twist" in mind, but sadly the entire mystery was completely dropped before this was revealed.

Although the scene in DOD where this was revealed was extremely well-executed, one aspect of it did not ring true for me -- and that was Elizabeth's apparent habitual occult ritual of protection for Vicki.  There is never any indication in the series that Elizabeth would have employed the occult, especially before the appearance of Barnabas on the scene.  Even then, Elizabeth voiced strong objections and even fear about the initial seances.  What we do see with respect to Elizabeth throughout the entire series is that she refers to prayer at times of distress.  It is more likely that Elizabeth's beliefs and practices fell within the conventional confines of a matron of a family steeped in tradition, and that if she had wished for the protection of Victoria from the time of her birth onward, she would have relied on the means most familiar to her with which she was comfortable -- prayer, not the practice of occult rituals.

[kuanyin]

You bring up some really good stuff, I had never heard the Jamison as daddy theory. Could it be, hmmm.....

I have always thought it was Lizzie. As you said, strongly implicated in the beginning. And I disagree that she would not be able to hide it. Who would make that so difficult? She had no parents alive at the time, presumably. (Kind of bites the Jamison theory, do we KNOW when her parents died? I thought it longer ago than Vicky's age.) As heiress, she could pretty well do what she pleased. If she said she was going to Europe on an extended tour, it would have been accepted. And that was not an unlikely choice for a young woman in Lizzie's class and finances. We know Roger was away at school. We don't know of any long term staff other than Matthew Morgan, and he would not have questioned her going away for a while. I would not for a moment think that she hid away and gave birth at Collinwood.

It seems unlikely that Lizzie would have gotten p.g. by the butler, though that would explain the resemblance in the portrait AS WELL as Lizzie's intense reaction of denial. If the 25 years were fudged just a little, I suppose it COULD also explain the abrupt departure of butler and his older daughter. From a social and conventional viewpoint I think this is unlikely. But not impossible, she WOULD have been a very young woman living in the same house with this man without any real chaperone figure, at least not one with any authority.

Regardless of who played the role of sperm donor, Lizzie's love child would still be a Collins.

[Philippe Cordier]

You bring up some really good stuff, I had never heard the Jamison as daddy theory. Could it be, hmmm.....

I have always thought it was Lizzie. As you said, strongly implicated in the beginning. And I disagree that she would not be able to hide it. Who would make that so difficult? She had no parents alive at the time, presumably. (Kind of bites the Jamison theory, do we KNOW when her parents died? I thought it longer ago than Vicky's age.)

Assuming that Vicki was conceived/born approximately in 1947, Jamison Collins most certainly COULD have been alive.  Say he was about 10 years old (I'm simplifying for the sake of doing quick math in my head) in 1897, he would have only have been about 60 years old in 1947, making him a perfectly suitable candidate for being Victoria's father.

Does anyone know if it's ever stated when Jamison Collins died?  I know Elizabeth and or Roger do speak of him early on in the series, so he is mentioned ...

As heiress, she could pretty well do what she pleased. If she said she was going to Europe on an extended tour, it would have been accepted. And that was not an unlikely choice for a young woman in Lizzie's class and finances. We know Roger was away at school. We don't know of any long term staff other than Matthew Morgan, and he would not have questioned her going away for a while. I would not for a moment think that she hid away and gave birth at Collinwood.

My memory is rather hazy on this, but wouldn't Elizabeth already have been married to Paul Stoddard at this time, or very likely going with him and engaged if not already married?

[Josette]

I think Vicki is supposed to be a couple of years older than Carolyn, so it seems quite possible that Liz could have married Paul after giving birth.  Jason hinted something to Vicki once about knowing about her.  We (and she) couldn't tell if he really did or was just trying to be mean to her.  It's possible that Paul and/or Jason knew something.

[Dr. Eric Lang]

Ah, my favorite subject. I believe we have discussed this before.

About Betty Hanscomb and the alleged butler:

It seemed fairly clear that there was NO butler named "Hanscomb." After seeing the entry for B. Hanscomb in the payroll ledger, Victoria makes a secret trip to Bangor to meet with Elizabeth's lawyer, Richard Garner, whose masthead appears on the ledger. Although Garner tells Vicki he recalls that there was once a butler named "Hanscomb" -- and this is the crucial point -- he then phones Elizabeth after Vicki leaves and tips her off that Vicki was snooping around, but not to worry because he "took care of it." Garner quite obviously knew the same secret Elizabeth did and helped her keep it under wraps. This means the "butler" story was a cover, and points to the fact that "B. Hanscomb" in the ledger was indeed Betty Hanscomb in the portrait - who was on the Collins payroll for some reason - and Elizabeth does not want Victoria to know about it.

After the warning from Garner, Elizabeth reiterates his story when Carolyn blabs to her that Vicki went chasing off after Garner for information on the ledger entry. However, no one can confirm that such a butler ever existed. Roger was "away at school" at the time, and Sam Evans did not associate closely enough with the family to know their servants.

I tend to agree that Sam, who was drunk at the time, had a blurred memory of what happened to Betty Hanscomb, but upon examining his exchange with Victoria he seems to be honest with her. Further evidence of this is when he offers to give her the portrait as a gift and a sign of friendship, while showing no signs of secrecy or hesitation.

I believe that Vicki was the illegitimate child of Paul Stoddard and local girl Betty Hanscomb. She may have been employed at Collinwood or might have simply received a monthly pay-off to keep quiet about it (explaining the payroll ledger). After the money ran out, Betty had to take Victoria to the orphanage.

Vicki's anonymous donations began arriving around the same time Paul Stoddard "disappeared." I think Elizabeth felt guilty (she thought she'd murdered him) which prompted her to start sending the money to his daughter for her upkeep.

No other scenario works without re-writing or ignoring established facts in the early series. I like the idea of Betty and Elizabeth being one and the same person, but it's not possible that Roger, Carolyn and others wouldn't have seen pictures of Elizabeth at that age, and recognized Betty's portrait as being Elizabeth.

I'm not overly impressed that Dan Curtis "intended" for Victoria to be Elizabeth's daughter despite the story line bible which stated she was Paul Stoddard's daughter. Dan Curtis "intended" for a lot of things to happen that never did, or were drastically changed, so the point is moot. Who knows what he would have decided to do had Victoria remained on the show - Curtis could have changed his mind a thousand times by then, and Vicki might have turned out to be one of Charles Delaware Tate's creations, or a Leviathan or something. Speculation is wide open where Curtis is concerned.

But the most important point to consider is that there was almost certainly no butler named "Hanscomb" and that story was a rather obvious cover-up judging by the episode where Victoria meets with Richard Garner.

[VAM]

I know this is kinda far off but has anyone considered the possibility of Sam Evans having a part in the scheme of things? Interesting idea of Maggie and Vicki being half-sisters...This would not allow for a  good reason why Vicki was brought to Collinwood. Oh well...

[Maria_Merriweather]

The actress you mentioned who had an out-of-wedlock birth was Loretta Young.  Her daughter, Judy Lewis wrote a book about this called Open Secret. Back in the 1930's when this ocurred it would have ruined her career to have an out-of-wedlock child openly.

The portrait of Betty Hanscomb bears a resemblance to both Vicky and Elizabeth (especially because the  woman in the  portrait has her hair up just like Elizabeth did early in the series). However, I believe Vicky was the illegitimate child of Paul Stoddard and Betty Hanscomb as was outlined in the  original storyline "bible".

[Miles]

No other scenario works without re-writing or ignoring established facts in the early series.

Haha, I believe every story from this point on uses at least a little of both.

But honestly, the Paul Stoddard one works the best when it comes to putting ALL the pieces together; I'm not sure there are any real problems with it.  Others work too, of course, but probably not as well.  I'd have liked to see a storyline where they simultaneously give several explanations for Vicki's birth- that would've been an interesting way to end it.

I thought it was foolish to throw a flesh and blood (well, it was a picture) woman out there who looked exactly like Vicki, this really closed off a lot of options.  Whereas other tips/clues could have been glossed over or de-explained when finally resolving the mystery, there was really going to be no way of getting around the fact that B. Hanscombe was an actual sketch of AM if they ever decided to deal with the issue.

But... for the sake of happy endings (sorta), Elizabeth Collins Stoddard is Victoria's mother, and her father ... isnt important.

[kuanyin]

I had forgotten that minute, but very crucial bit about the butler being part of the coverup. Ohhhhkay.

Do we know how accurate the story line bible is? Isn't there quite a bit of contradiction within it? I don't just mean to be contentious, and goodness knows soap operas are not known for being logical. BUT, I just can't see Lizzie obviously caring so much for Vicky if she were Paul Stoddard's bastard offspring. She may have felt an obligation for the poor child, but I think it would have been a check written once in a while at the very most. And that would be more than most would do.

I would think Lizzie would feel more warm and fuzzy toward Vicky if she were the result of her maid's dalliance with Sam Evans! (I don't really think that either though, as I think Maggie and Vicky are too close in age and there is no reason to think he wasn't faithful). I don't think Lizzie HAS to think someone is a Collins to care for them, she is quite fond of Amy, for instance. Though, let's face it, being a Collins in that family ALWAYS means instant acceptance and even more affection.

If the butler is ruled non-existential, then I will continue of think of the portrait as a red herring.

Oh, and yes, I would think Jamison COULD have been alive unless he was ancient when Lizzie and Roger were conceived. I just have had the impression that he had been dead for quite a while.