DS VS Star Trek? Why So Little Respect For DS?

[Lydia]

Magnus, I don't see the bad image of Star Trek that you do.  Granted, I don't pay much attention, but my impression is that if I were to tell people that I was a Star Trek fan, they would be more likely to say “That was a neat show” than if I were to tell people that I was a Dark Shadows fan.

These days if I mention Dark Shadows, people are more likely to turn the conversation to Twilight or True Blood, whereupon I smile politely and (usually) refrain from saying, “Actually, vampires in general don't interest me much.”

[JS]

This is a great topic and very interesting to mull over I must say.

In the 60's I wasn't much of a Star Trek fan but I was a huge DS fan. I think this was mainly because I was always fascinated more by the supernatural than by Science Fiction. The other kids did make fun of me because, "I watched Soap Opera's". But I didn't care what they said. I was also the only Elvis fan in the 5th grade. I was always different. But so what, I liked what I liked and I was just being me and I wasn't going to change for nobody because I was a happy kid.

I'm still the same today 40 years later. I'm still the only one that I know that likes Dark Shadows and Elvis. Today however I will watch the original Star Trek  series if nothing else is on. Mostly because I have a tendency to gravitate toward anything 60's, that was the happiest time of my life.

I'm really happy that I found this web site. At least I know that I'm not the only one in the world that is a DS fan. I think DS fans are special because there aren't as many of us as there are Star trek fans.

[Barnabas'sBride]

I've known several people that were DS fans when the show was airing, they're just not into the fandom now.

I like the original Star Trek, not because it was done in the 60s, but because of the characters. I'm not a Star Trek fan in general - I only like the original series. I'm looking forward to the movie simply because it's got the crew that I love in it.  Next Generation was too cold for me, I thought the characters were lifeless. None of the other Trek series had characters that captured me, either.

I've always been interested in vampires since I started watching Buffy the Vampire Slayer in 1997. Bram Stoker's Dracula, young adult author Christopher Pike's Last Vampire Series, Dark Shadows, and Twilight....have loved them all.

[Zahir]

Methinks there is more than one reason Star Trek enjoys higher prestige than DS.  Many have been mentioned already--the "hopeful future" aspect, the sheer number of episodes, etc.

But another reason that comes to mind is how inherently limited the "world" of DS is.  Whereas in ST fans have speculated about other vessels in Starfleet, about the histories of multiple characters, etc. the fact is that DS for the most part concerns one wealthy family in a tiny town in thinly-populated state.  So therein lies a problem of scale.

I will also point out that DS is frankly more dated than the original series of TREK.

None of these things is enough, but the combination methinks added up to the relative lack-of-respect.

On another note, but one already brought up, I myself don't see how Johnny Depp and others are in any way "disrespecting" the fans.  The script is still being written!  The details of fitting the gigantic logistics of a motion picture have just barely begun, namely working out a hole in people's schedules.  Money must still be raised, and from there the casting and design process has yet to begin.  All this is a process in which we have no realistic part to play whatsoever--so why should a bunch of strangers somehow get regular updates about the earliest of the earliest parts of planning?  Peter Jackson and company eventually did set up lines of communications with LOTR fans all over the world--but not while writing the first draft of the script nor raising the initial financing and not until well into the pre-production phase.  DS isn't even there yet.  It is in development.

And let us face this fact as well--the filmmakers of DS have no moral or legal obligation to keep us abreast of any more details than the rest of the public.  Yeah, it would be nice.  It would very cool if they did.  But what really matters is the final product, that it be a good movie, not that a bunch of amateurs get to tell Depp and others what they think while they do all the real work of making it happen.

Seems to me we could all offer a little respect to the men and women who are trying to make a new DS a reality instead of complaining they didn't keep hundreds or thousands of total strangers "in the loop."

[Nancy]

Excellent post, Zahir. I wish I had said that!

nancy

Seems to me we could all offer a little respect to the men and women who are trying to make a new DS a reality instead of complaining they didn't keep hundreds or thousands of total strangers "in the loop."

[Barnabas'sBride]

It's too early to hear anything about DS. Once a script is completed and they get a date for filming, I expect we'll hear then. Until then, I don't expect to hear anything about it unless someone asks Depp specifically in an interview.

[Mary]

While I agree that Depp and company have no obligation to keep the fans updated on what's going on with the movie when it's still in such early stages, I would think that they would be keeping Jim Pierson updated (since Barbara Steele certainly seems to know what's going on) and I think that since we fans have been so loyal to DS all these years and also keep attending the Fests all these years, I would just think it would be in his best interest for him to keep us updated, even if there's not much going on at the moment.

[madscntst]

I agree with Zahir and others who remind us that while a script is being written, there's not much to tell, and those involved aren't ever going to give us a play-by-play any time a draft of a script is looked at and maybe considered and argued, and gone back to the drawing board.  I'm sure there is a lot of stuff going on behind the scenes, and maybe a lot of them will reach dead ends and we won't even know they happened.  It's only when things start falling into place that there is even much of anything worth reporting, anyway.  Knowing the writer and the director is a good start!

I agree that it would be nice to hear from Jim Pierson once in awhile if possible.  But again, if the only thing to tell is vague reports of a script being written and revised, it's not going to tell us much and might barely be worth mentioning anyway.  Johnny is unlikely to be interviewed anytime soon, because he has no movies coming out until next spring/summer (Public Enemies in July, and maybe some film festival showings of Terry Gilliam's Parnassus movie).  He rarely gives interviews in between movies  .  As for him "pushing the project back", I still don't see that as being the case, since they have to wait for a script before they can even think of filming.  The only projects he has set in stone right now are Alice In Wonderland (filming now) and Rango (animated-voice work to start in January).  All the other projects we've heard about are in the same gray area DS is, and have no set start date. Even for Pirates 4, which Jerry Bruckheimer has said will come out in 2011, I suspect that is just hand-waving optimism on his part.

As for Star Trek vs. DS, I loved both of them when I was a kid.  I don't think it's impossible to respect both, though this has been a fantastic discussion as to why one might be favored by some folks.  I haven't been a rabid trekkie, but I watched at least some of all the series and some of the films.  I look forward to the upcoming one mainly because I want to see Zachary Quinto (Sylar/Gabriel from Heroes) as Spock.

Nowadays, I've met a ton of people who say they "used to run home from school" to watch DS.  The difference is, they didn't really keep up the fandom, but nobody I've met has put me down for still being a fan.  It's hard to say whether folks like this would see the film, but I certainly hope that a film could be made to appeal to a wide audience!

[jimbo]

I think some cousins may have misinterpreted my last post. I am not expecting a play by play of the movie's progress. But not to hear anything is very disconcerting. I have not heard of any formal announcement that TB has been named the movie's director nor is there any official announcement that Depp will play Barnabas. Not sure why that information has not been officially released in the past two years by the DS producers. I truly believe the script is complete ( I don't know how another poster here could claim for a fact that the script was still being written). I don't know if it has been approved or perhaps the producers have ordered another script which may be a reason for the movie being allegedly pushed back. But of course we can only speculate due to the lack of information given to us. JP is not going to say anything without first receiving permission from Depp's people and that is unfortunate and in my opinion disrespectful. When Depp purchased the rights to DS to do the movie, he undertook  the responsibility of protecting the legacy of the franchise which I believe is equal to that of the Star Trek franchise. During the new Star Trek movie's development process, the producers were anxious to share the exciting developments which was very respectful of the franchise ie... writer, director, Kirk or no Kirk, date when filming would begin etc....The Star Trek producers realized the fans passion for information on it's progress. Now if there is nothing  happening with the DS movie, well then that is very unfortunate. It would just be nice to know if this movie is going to happen and for JP to be allowed to tell us information that may be good or bad. For example, if the DS movie is actually being pushed back to a 2010 shoot, why is that information being kept under wraps? Do Depp's people have a legal obligation to tell us this information the answer is no. Do they have a moral obligation to communicate this fact to us fans, I say yes they do. There is nothing negative about a movie being pushed back so why not just keep us posted. Again I am not asking for the minutes of the DS producers meetings but big picture details could be released to us fans. I understood that when I last posted that I would not be in the majority opinion. But that is ok after all this is a discussion board and there normally is no right or wrong position. If we all agreed on everything this would be a very boring discussion board. I am also grateful to the board's moderators for keeping this board conducive to have cousins post messages that may not be popular with the other posters. I have read all the criticisms to my post and they are all intellectually based without a hint of a personal attack. Now if this was another dicussion board the name calling would have been very entertaining to say the least. jk

[David]

WOW!
I started quite a long thread!

My original post was more inspired by DS in the past: look at how wildly popular it was in the 60s~~HODS saved MGM from collapse.
Yet the plug was pulled on the show abruptly~~no attempt was made to save it~~no attempt was made to end 1840 with any kind of logic~~no concern about tying up loose ends.
No respect for long term viewers.

The 2 hour 91 DS movie drew 35 million viewers, yet the show was doomed after one night of low ratings due to Gulf War coverage.
Thousands & thousand of fans protested & were ignored.

Look at how the WB treated the 04 pilot.

And WHY OH WHY, when I was a kid, did being a male wathing DS guaranteed that you'd be subjected to anti-gay
epitaphs?
At least it was like that in Brooklyn.

David

[Luciaphile]

Here are my guesses....
1. Easier for new viewers to see Star Trek. I had heard of DS long before I saw it. Trek has been on and airing on some station or another (and not merely cable) for most of my life. And I remember watching reruns of Trek way before the movies were even conceived of.
2. Easier for new viewers to "get" Star Trek. You can watch one episode and have a sense of who the characters are and what the show is about.
3. Stigma of the soap opera format. Trek was a prime time show.
4. Higher production values on Trek. I'm not a Shatner fan and I am aware that Trek is by no means a perfect show, but in terms of lack of bloopers, production values, all around continuity, it beats DS hands down. As charming as some of us find DS' imperfections, average viewer is going to think more highly of Trek.
5. Relatively decent SF pedigree in terms of story and writing.

If you are talking fandoms, I'm not sure what you mean, because people have been making fun of Trekkies for a VERY long time.

FYI, I personally prefer TNG, DS9, and Voyager to the original Trek, but I don't think I'd consider myself all that rabid a fan...

[Mary]

And WHY OH WHY, when I was a kid, did being a male wathing DS guaranteed that you'd be subjected to anti-gay
epitaphs?

I'm sorry you had to go through that, David.  When I was a kid, it was a neighbor boy who got me started watching DS.  (When we were around 6, I'm thinking.)  DS was very popular here (in Ohio) with boys.  When HODS finally got to our local theater, in like 1972(!), I remember on the weekend that it played here, on Sunday morning in my 5th and 6th grade Sunday School class all the boys had gone to see it and were enthusiastically talking about how great it was, and I was sitting there silently, totally jealous that they had gotten to go see it, because my mom wouldn't let me see it because she said it was "too bloody" (gggrrrrrrrrr!!!).  She even said it was "for boys" -- gggggggrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrr!!!!!!!!!!!!  But none of the other girls in my Sunday School class had any interest in it whatsoever -- aaaaaaaarrrrrrrrrrrgggggghhhh!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!  (LOL!)

[MagnusTrask]

And WHY OH WHY, when I was a kid, did being a male wathing DS guaranteed that you'd be subjected to anti-gay
epitaphs?

There's a certain kind of jerk who looks for any pretext sometimes.  I'm not going to pretend to understand why guys like that act that way though.   Maybe they prove something to their jerk social group by finding targets to attack.  I have a feeling I'm going to spend the rest of my life trying to figure it all out.   With me, it was primarily not liking sports and not being good at them.   I got the anti-gay epithets day in and day out for a certain long period because of that (and lack of a tough presence I guess), and I'm not gay, so, well, they couldn't even get that right.

I'm huge on Star Trek by the way, and science-fiction.  Original Trek especially, then DS9.

[jimbo]

And WHY OH WHY, when I was a kid, did being a male wathing DS guaranteed that you'd be subjected to anti-gay
epitaphs?
At least it was like that in Brooklyn.

I am sorry David that you had to endure that kind of treatment. I also grew up in Brooklyn as a kid, Bensonhurst to be exact. Yes the home of Ralph Kramden although his stated residence address was not physically in Bensonhurst but that is for another discussion. My cousins both female turned me on to DS when they visited my grandparents who lived in my 2 family home at the time the show was on the air. My recollection was that mostly everybody in school watched DS. I do recall seeing many students boys and girls in our DS pack running home to catch DS and saying to people like "get out of our way". Perhaps attending a Catholic School prevented us from seeing what was going on to people in public schools. I think back then the culture differences between private and public schools were greater than it is today. But I personally never heard as a kid that DS was for girls etc... even after school. However, I do recall that people in Brooklyn would call bad names in the context you mentioned for other reasons. Brooklyn was a very tough place to be raised in those times for sure. I think it made us Brooklynites stronger people in every aspect.

[michael c]

i'm not sure how much "respect" star trek fans actually get...being branded a "trekkie" sort of qualifies one for the geekdom hall of fame in many peoples eyes.

except for the "cult" nature of their fanbases for the life of me i'll never understand why these two programs are always lumped together.
one is gothic melodrama and the other pure science fiction.i don't really see the connection.

i can't stand star trek.