Thoughts about Jeb Hawkes/Victoria Winters/Peter Bradford

[Philippe Cordier]

Not sure I want to become embroiled in a controversy (and I'm going out of town so I won't be able to get too embroiled), but I never watched DS looking for happy endings.

While I was shocked at Vicki's fate, I wouldn't presume to dictate what I think should happen on a TV show or in a novel I read.  Life is full of tragedies, and I thought this segment reflected that.

[Mysterious Benefactor]

We can solve that - Vicki can be alive, but she can never be with Peter. Frankly, that works even better for me. Happiness for fans of Vicki, tragedy for Vicki herself.    Any potential controversy easily averted. 

[dom]

Throw in resolving her parentage and I'll even buy one.

[quentincollins]

Throw in resolving her parentage and I'll even buy one.

For a partial answer to that ( even though Vicky herself isn't in it ) check out the Return to Colliwood cd play

[arashi]

Currently rewatching boxset 18, and a thought struck me.

[spoiler]Barnabas was kidnapped by the Leviathans in 1796. This could be just immediately after Jeb is killed by Peter Bradford (if I am remembering the story correctly). Their leader's physical body was dead and they sensed Barnabas' moving about in the time stream, so they took advantage of both his abilities and the moment.[/spoiler]

Not in ANY WAY trying to justify this plot development, but it suddenly seemed to make a little more sense to me.

[quentincollins]

That does make sense , except during that time Vicky would still be locked in jail . I suppose that since events are playing out differently when Barnabas and Kitty went back to 1796 Vicky could have been liberated somehow . I hope that someday an official audio or book straightens out this mess !

[MagnusTrask]

Until Peter shows up with the noose, I thought Jeb was "born" recently.   We were supposed to I guess.    Are they saying Jeb, looking like adult Jeb with the same name, goes through all this, periodically through history, accellerated growth and trying to take over the world, only for something to go wrong?   Maybe... what we saw was only the second time?   I suppose he got gaoled for his similar Leviathan activities, so not his fault, and they let him try again?  Why then does the world seem so new to him in 1969?

Same as with Eve I suppose, rebirth is a hard process and much gets lost.    Sort of what happened with Julia when she hit 1840.    Crossing these barriers take bits of you away.

This must have been Jeb's second try, only.    If he betrayed them this time, he has an inclination for it, and wouldn't be given repeated shots at The Plan.

It disturbs me that even with Jeb, they seem to have been trying to make him genuinely "reformed" and virtuous, just because he suddenly turns over a new leaf.   It makes me wonder after seeing Barnabas's not-so-gradual or understandable process of reformation, in 1968.    I wonder if the writers were harboring any murderers in their basements, or something, or had "pasts".  Before, I always thought it was cool that they questioned the rightness of having the law "redeem" people, but over the years there are just too many examples on DS of reprehensible people waking up one day whistling and redeemed.

Arashi... I think they must have had that in mind, what you said.  It was just poorly explained.  By them, not you.

[Mysterious Benefactor]

It disturbs me that even with Jeb, they seem to have been trying to make him genuinely "reformed" and virtuous, just because he suddenly turns over a new leaf.

Don't even get me started on THAT again! 

I wonder if the writers were harboring any murderers in their basements, or something, or had "pasts".

Interesting theory. 

over the years there are just too many examples on DS of reprehensible people waking up one day whistling and redeemed.

And if/when it happens that quickly, it simply does not work. There's suspending disbelief - and then there's out and out insane plot twists that the audience would be insane themselves to swallow. 

[IluvBarnabas]

Not sure I want to become embroiled in a controversy (and I'm going out of town so I won't be able to get too embroiled), but I never watched DS looking for happy endings.

While I was shocked at Vicki's fate, I wouldn't presume to dictate what I think should happen on a TV show or in a novel I read.  Life is full of tragedies, and I thought this segment reflected that.

I have nothing against unhappy and tragic endings, but I think those are better suited for more realistic stories. DS definitely doesn't fall under the catergory of realism.

And as for dictating what one thinks should happen in a TV show or a novel.....well, isn't that what a forum is for? To offer an opinion on what one likes or didn't like about a TV show or movie or what one wishes had happened on there or didn't happen on there? It's not like we can change the outcome of the show (however much one may wish it). I for one have no qualms about expressing my dismay over a certain plot twist.

I still say the writers (or maybe more so DC) were stupid to change Vicki's fate from a happy one to a sad and undeserved one. Again I say leave the unhappy endings for more realistic fare like any of the Law and Order and CSI shows.

[arashi]

It disturbs me that even with Jeb, they seem to have been trying to make him genuinely "reformed" and virtuous, just because he suddenly turns over a new leaf.   It makes me wonder after seeing Barnabas's not-so-gradual or understandable process of reformation, in 1968.    I wonder if the writers were harboring any murderers in their basements, or something, or had "pasts".  Before, I always thought it was cool that they questioned the rightness of having the law "redeem" people, but over the years there are just too many examples on DS of reprehensible people waking up one day whistling and redeemed.

That was a hard plot point to come across and I still don't buy it. We're suddenly supposed to like Jeb just because he decided not to be the Thing anymore? After murdering Paul Stoddard, Sheriff Davenport, and Inspector Guthrie (was that his name?) and framing Philip Todd for the murders, trying to kill both Maggie and Quentin, trying to get nearly everyone under the sun to murder Julia, and turning Barnabas back into a vampire again which threatens the existence of everyone around him... it's so nice of everyone to kind of forget all that for the sake of his love for Carolyn /sarcasm.

Yeah the Shadow was incredibly hokey, but I loved that scene where he walks into the carriage house and Angelique is sitting at the table waiting for him. 

[Mysterious Benefactor]

That was a hard plot point to come across and I still don't buy it. We're suddenly supposed to like Jeb just because he decided not to be the Thing anymore? After murdering Paul Stoddard, Sheriff Davenport, and Inspector Guthrie (was that his name?) and framing Philip Todd for the murders, trying to kill both Maggie and Quentin, trying to get nearly everyone under the sun to murder Julia, and turning Barnabas back into a vampire again which threatens the existence of everyone around him... it's so nice of everyone to kind of forget all that for the sake of his love for Carolyn /sarcasm.

Thank you, arashi! I couldn't have said it better myself. A good part of the DS audience could easily accept that certain characters could have been believably transformed from evildoers to at least something resembling something otherwise with very little suspension of disbelief because a stable foundation for it was developed, usually over a period of time long enough for it to take (what passes on DS for  ) logical root and shape - BUT no amount of suspension of disbelief could ever reform Jeb as quickly as the audience is expected to swallow his supposed turn.

[MagnusTrask]

You know, after all this stuiff about Jeb, looking back, I'm starting to feel a soft spot for Blair, because after all, love redeems all, and Blair had a soft spot for Maggie, or a hard one, or whatever.   (I'm writing their marriage vows.)     Poor old misunderstood Nickie, always meaning well, and the Devil leads all sorts of good people astray.     Look, there he is on TV, holding Maggie's hand... oh I can't help it!!!     Nicholas Blair, what a loveable galloot!!     Put 'er there, Nick!     You can stay in the guest room!   Heck, take my room!