Quote from: MaineGirl on May 09, 2007, 12:56:34 AM

What you're describing sounds like an outhouse to me.

I'll certainly grant that it may sound like it - but it's not. And getting any deeper into this topic is also way OT for the forum and especially for this particular board. So, as I said, Google is an excellent resource in explaining what it is that I'm talking about - and I know this because I used it to do my own research before I made my initial post last night. Anyone who might be interested in knowing more info should probably do the same. 

Also, keep in mind that, as with many things on DS, we're not necessarily limited to the way things actually were in colonial America. If it existed somewhere in the world at the time, if it was in any way feasible, and if enough money could have made it possible to exist in a Collins household, then the Collinses *could* have had it even if no one else around them did. That's simply one of the great advantages of being a Collins (and particularly being a Collins running a shipping business). 

How on earth is talking about the possibility of there being an outhouse in the Old House off topic? It came up in the captions, to start with. Why are outhouses off topic for this board, when the characters you are working with surely used them on a daily basis? Besides, you were the one who, while saying that everyone who *didn't* think that there was a toilet in the OH from day one in 1767 was "guilty" (of being wrong, one presumes), brought up all those dates when toilets were invented and developed. So I was just following your lead in quoting historical facts, but am now wondering why it feels very much like no one is allowed to disagree with you.

As for Google as an excellent resource, sure, it's a great place to start on this kind of research, however, I based my findings on an even more excellent and factual resource, that is, what I read in published non-fiction history books. I've been reading those for years, so I feel pretty confident that my conclusions about the existance or non-existance of a toilet in the OH are accurate.

Yeah, okay, in a perfect, romantic Dark Shadows world, they could have had an indoor toilet. I just prefer to be more realistic about it.

Regards,

MaineGirl

I know some fans love to make fun that the Old House had an outhouse. However, I can't go one more second without pointing out that (and this isn't directed at any one fan in particular because several have been guilty  ):

• The flush toilet was invented in 1596 by John Harrington
• First valve-type flush toilet was introduced in 1738 by a man named J.F. Brondel (J.F. Bronde)
• Alexander Cummings invented the Strap, a sliding valve between the bowl and the trap in 1775.
• Samuel Prosser applied for and received a patent for a plunger toilet in 1777.
• Joseph Bramah altered the design in  1778 so that it had a valve at the bottom of the bowl that worked on a hinge, a predecessor to the modern ballcock.

And something tells me the Collinses were rich enough to have had the latest toilets installed in the Old House when it was constructed in 1767 - and the facilities were probably upgraded with each new innovation (Revolutionary War be damned!).    The idea of Joshua Collins - or any members of that generation of the family, for that matter - actually using an outhouse is patently absurd! I suspect they would rather have been dead. 

Actually...in 1795, outhouses were so common that no one thought anything about them. Outhouses in 1795 were not backwards. They were an advancement over going into the woods and squatting or using a tree. Joshua, Barnabas, Naomi, Sarah, Josette, they all used the outhouse. Or the chamber pot. Or the woods, if the need arose.

In fact, in big cities, there was such a lack of plumbing and ways of carrying away waste that people dumped night soil from bed pans into their cellars and basements and even into the street. Outhouses *might* be cleaned out by a nightsoil man from time to time, if you had the money, but mostly the sewage lingered there to rot. London in 1795, certainly much more advanced than a backwater village such as Collinsport of the same year, had no drainage for sewage. In fact no sewage system existed (except to take away rainwater), hence the epidemics of the 1850s that generated (finally) an interest in creating a sewer system, instead of just using the River Thames. Indoor plumbing was too new, even in the early 1800’s, to be readily accepted, and certainly was not accepted until there was the infrastructure to support it. That infrastructure in London wasn't created until the late 1850's, and as I recall, NYC developed theirs some time after that. So even as they had toilet designs with valves and bowls and hinges, there was no way to hook the toilets up to anything to make them useful. Especially not in Maine.

Consider the fact that they didn’t even have water pumps in 1795 in Maine. They were still using wells for water in that part of the country until at least the 1820's. New York City might have had a few pumps in 1795, but they were few and far between and made of wood. The pipes that supported the few pumps that did exist were made of wood as well, and had the tendency to rot and burst. No such water pumps have been documented in the any part of Maine, and not north of Frenchman Bay, where Collinsport is said to be located in 1795. So, if upstate Maine didn’t have the plumbing for a pump, they certainly wouldn’t have had the plumbing for an indoor toilet.

As much as some might want the Collins family to have an indoor toilet, all the technology in the world would not make up for the fact that the availability of enough water pressure, pipes, and a plumber to install such a thing in 1795 in what was not yet the state of Maine was somewhat lacking. Indoor plumbing was invented, but not used until much later, and then only in big cities. Just because something was invented, doesn’t mean it was adopted for common use.

Check out the non-fiction research book A Midwife's Tale: The Life of Martha Ballard, Based on Her Diary, 1785-1812 by Laurel Thatcher Ulrich, which is available on amazon.com. This book carefully researches the day to day life of the real people of Maine, both the rich and the poor. No mention of indoor plumbing is made, though there are plenty of references to dumping nightsoil from chamberpots onto the garden for fertilizer.

Yours in Research,

MaineGirl

This is a toughie. I would like to have had Willie NOT go into Windcliffe. For you see, he is such an interesting character...when he came back from Windcliffe he was far more soft. Before he had a street toughness about him. After, not so much. He was still sweet, but he was so messed up and fragile, I feared for him more than I had before. And Barn, while less physically abusive (it seemed to me) was far more psychologically abusive. Oh wait...this answer is about Willie not Barn!

Of course, I would like to have Willie not open that dratted coffin! But then we wouldn't even really have a story, would we.  

MaineGirl

Quote from: MaineGirl on November 14, 2006, 05:32:59 PM

You know...if I didn't know any better CallieWL, I would say that what you are suggesting here is that, um, that Adam, well that Adam...I mean...which jewels are you talking about, exactly?

I prefer to let the reader imagine whatever jewels he or she might want to imagine!

Well, thank goodness for that. Because, well, for a moment there, I had a strange feeling that you were trying to induce us ALL to have filthy, gutter-worthy thoughts!  And about Barnabas, too! I mean, having filthy thoughts about the Barnster is so...so, well, it's SO irreverent!!!

MaineGirl

Adam was pleased when Barnabas' family jewels turned out to be a lot prettier than he was expecting.

You know...if I didn't know any better CallieWL, I would say that what you are suggesting here is that, um, that Adam, well that Adam...I mean...which jewels are you talking about, exactly?

MaineGirl

And don't forget that Karlen was on two soaps, no less, back in the day. According to imdb he was on Another World in 1964 and Love is a Many Splendored Thing in 1967.

Maine Girl

Quote from: Raineypark on April 05, 2006, 03:58:53 PM

I may relish every moment John Karlen ever spent on screen in this show....but if I had to sit through dialogue about the taxes being due on the old house, and the monkshood needing watering, and when the hell Barnabas was going to spring for indoor plumbing, I'd run screaming from the TV.

Very true, and who's to say they didn't EVENTUALLY tell Stokes things, OFF camera?!   

Although, BuzzH, I think that I may have mis-answered to your original post - where you are asking for direct quotes that are totally DS-based, and could never be understood in any other context. I think that's marvelous insight you have there...those kinds of statements are like the ones someone makes when someone they know is about to embark on a dangerous journey. I mean, how many among us have said, "If you die, I'll KILL you!" What a loving, logical thing to say. 

MaineGirl

Quote from: BuzzH on February 09, 2006, 08:26:46 PM

it upset several cast members and they walked out even. ... friends who were said the cast members that walked out were furious about it being shown.

Well, two cast members walked out:  Marie Wallace and KLS.  KLS has said that John Karlen did too, but did anyone see him walk out?  I didn't notice him leaving his seat.

Mr. Karlen left almost as soon as the documentary began, perhaps even before. He left because he had a horrible headache (he said), and couldn't sit it out any longer. I always get the feeling that he typically doesn't enjoy the media presentations that come after the banquet (he'd rather be talking and interacting with real live people), but that night, he really looked like he wasn't feeling good. So yes, KLS is right in that Mr. Karlen left, but he didn't leave because of the documentary, he left in spite of it, so to speak.

Maine Girl