DARK SHADOWS FORUMS
General Discussions => Current Talk Archive => Current Talk '24 I => Current Talk '06 I => Topic started by: PennyDreadful on March 08, 2006, 03:35:50 PM
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I just re-watched the early Willie episodes, when Mr. Loomis was the just the worst, most rotten creep around.
Now with most of the early re-casts on the show, such as with Sam Evans and Matthew Morgan, I could really appreciate both actors' takes on their respective characters. Mark Allen and David Mitchell were both good actors and were interesting to watch. The transitions to the new actors, David Ford and Thayer David, were good too because they reinterpreted the characters in their own great ways as well. While I was watching Mitchell and Allen I enjoyed their versions of the characters and their few performances in the show compared favorably to their successors in those roles.
However, with James Hall and John Karlen it's a different story. It's amazing how the character of Willie Loomis just comes to life once Karlen takes over. He infuses the character with these amazing nuances and gives Willie a really disturbed quality which I feel Hall just wasn't pulling off. Hall's Willie was an annoying, mumbling young thug who tripped over his own words, whereas Karlen seemed very dangerous, vicious and off his rocker - yet with this immature quality about him at the same time. Apologies to any possible fans of Mr. Hall's performance, but as I was watching his take on the character, I couldn't help but wish we had been able to see Karlen play the heel version of Willie in those episodes as well.
I always felt John Karlen was a great actor, but when you compare him back to back with the earlier actor, this fact becomes vividly and strikingly apparent.
Good thing the recast happened, as I simply can't imagine Hall as the humbled, terrified servant of Barnabas.
~Penny~
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I agree with the comparison between Hall and Karlen. As different as day and night. I think that one of the reasons that they had let Hall go, was because he was mumbling over he words on camera.
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Yes, I'm sure that was probably part of the reason Terry308, plus KLS has publicly stated that Hall had a drinking problem which was affecting his ability to perform on the show. I wonder if they cast him while Dan Curtis was out of town (since he claims he was out of town when Barnabas was cast). Hall was supposedly a friend of KLS's from acting school, but I can't imagine DC seeing any kind of brilliant acting quality in Hall. I mean, he looked the part I suppose, but he didn't have that loose cannon quality, nor IMO could he have convincingly played the vampire's servant later on.
Another thing I noticed when Karlen took over the role, was that the performances of the OTHER actors doing scenes with him also improved - Dennis Patrick and Mitch Ryan in particular really had some nice scenes with Karlen. This is the mark of good acting, because Karlen was giving the other actors something to work with - something to play off of - whereas Hall clearly wasn't. The scenes with Hall and the other actors (overall) just seemed awkward to me. It's a credit to the great acting skills of Nancy Barrett that she was able to play fear so well around Hall, because while his Willie was an annoying jerk, he wasn't giving Barrett much to work with. He just seemed like some older version of a schoolyard creep. John Karlen would have been so much scarier in those scenes.
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I never saw the original Willie but, hey, John Karlen's Willie Loomis is classic.
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I wonder if they cast him while Dan Curtis was out of town (since he claims he was out of town when Barnabas was cast).
Funny thing about this is, DC would later TAKE CREDIT for hiring Jonathan when it's well known from various star/crew interviews over the years in print, TV and at Fest's that DC was out of town, London I believe, and that according to Bob Costello he sent 3 pics to DC for review. One was of Jon, one was of Bert Convey and another whom I don't recall. DC, according to Costello, sent back Bert's pic. Costello basically said, "Screw that, I like Frid. He's got a mysterious quality about him" and thus he hired Jon. Later, when DC returned, I belive it was actually Jon's first day of taping, DC said to Costello, "Who's that guy?" and Costello played dumb and said, "What do you mean, his is the picture you sent back..." I'm sorry, I'm NO fan of DC, but that is BEYOND wrong to later take credit for something you CLEARLY had NOTHING to do with. Man has NO scruples IMHO. Nancy, anything to add regarding how Jonathan was REALLY hired? ;)
I mean, he looked the part I suppose, but he didn't have that loose cannon quality, nor IMO could he have convincingly played the vampire's servant later on.
Hear, hear! I also can't see Hall playing Carl, Desmond or Kendrick either. Or for that matter PT Will, HODS Willie or Alex Jenkins. ;)
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I agree Karlen was far better in the role of Willie than Hall, but I also did appreciate some very subtle nuances in their depiction of Willie. There was something regarding Hall's approach that was far - I don't know the right word, but here goes - seedier. It just seemed to me that while Karlen did excellent in making the character cold and brutal (as Willie was before Barnabas snacked on him), even more so than Hall, Hall was creepier in his menace, more psychotic. I'm thinking, for example, that if he were the one who had fallen under Barnabas' control, he never would have had an ounce of conscience or compassion for what Maggie was going through during her abduction. He would've enjoyed her torture, taunting her to add to his own pleasure, and certainly never would've come to her defense, especially risking his life for her. Anyway, that may not have been the way the character would've developed if Hall retained the part, but in his take-off on Willie, that's how I would have seen his depiction.
Gerard
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Now you have me wondering!
I have already written, several times here, that I believe the character of Willie Loomis was meant to be the symbol of redemption in Dark Shadows. Now you have me wondering if that was meant to be the case all along....or if it might never have developed if James Hall had kept the part.
Perhaps James Hall was replaced not because he couldn't play the role of "Willie, before".....but rather it was determined that he wouldn't be able to play the role of "Willie, after".
Or perhaps John Karlen had more influence in the developement of Willie than ever was expected when he took the role.
Has anyone ever asked him about that? Perhaps, if I get the chance, I might ask him that at the next fest... :D
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One thing I have noticed from attending DS Festivals for over 20 years is how everyone (except perhaps Mr. Davis) reveres John Karlen as an actor- even Jonathan Frid. It goes without saying that he is definitely an "actor's actor"- one who gives all to his costars and helps them achieve great performances. Lara and Kathryn simply adore John, and the only reason that Alexandra Moltke showed up at the Museum of TV & Radio tribute a few years back is because she did it at his request. I don't think there's any other actor in the DS family who is more beloved than our gregarious John, and let me tell you, when he joins Grayson, Joan, Thayer, Michael, Don and the others "up there" (and may that day not happen for years to come!), many a DS fan and costar will shed a lot of tears.
Let's face the simple fact that John is a vastly talented actor and Mr. Hall could've never played such a range of characters (Willie/Carl/Will Loomis/Desmond/Kendrick/Alex) the way John did during those four years he was on DS. Can't wait to see him again in August- he rocks!
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I remember going to a Bluegrass concert several years ago. The opening act came out, and I noticed they had some raw talent but played their set as if they were struggling within their limitations. The second act came on, they were about half developed talent and half the desire to want to be playing the music. The headlining act was Bill Monroe. Now admittedly, he was a veteran of 50 years by that time. But, when he played it was pure talent, an effortless performance that was perfect on each song. It was then I understood what it meant to have natural talent as compared to just the desire to perform. I use this as an analogy to John Hall and John (I always want to say Johnny now that I've been to several fests) Karlen. John Hall probably wanted to be a good actor, but he was not as blessed with the natural talent of John Karlen. This is why I agree, and Diane has said this numerous times, that John Hall was replaced because he couldn't really make the transitions in his performance that were going to be necessary for the Willie Loomis character. To put it another way, we have a guy who has about the range of Barney Rubble with a guy who has close to a James Dean range. I don't want to pick on James Hall too hard, but consider John Karlen went on to win an Emmy while James Hall went on to things like SWAT as "Sentry."
Likewise, I doubt we'd be talking about Dark Shadows today if Bert Convey had been cast as Barnabas. What probably would have happened is that as originally planned, the character would have been staked by Dr. Julian Hoffman after a few weeks and the show would have been a footnote in tv history, probably being canceled in its second year. Frid's casting, like John Karlen's was the necessary change and "lucky accident" that led to Dark Shadows being able to sustain and become the show we still love 40 years later.
Michael
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Is there anyone else on this forum who had the great good fortune to see John Karlen perform on stage during the DS years? I did. I was only 14 years old, and it was my very first live play, but even I knew I was watching something wonderful. His co-stars were Maureen O'Hara and Jack Gilbert, two masters of the New York stage. But John was in no way over-shadowed by his elders in that performance.
I've said this before: if he had remained in New York, I believe he would have had the same sort of brilliant career that Jerry Orbach had, both on stage and on TV.
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One thing I have noticed from attending DS Festivals for over 20 years is how everyone (except perhaps Mr. Davis) reveres John Karlen as an actor- even Jonathan Frid.
Yes, it does seem as if Roger Davis thinks of dear Johnny in a derisive way. I base this not on gossip, but something RD did, onstage at the 1994 LA Fest when he was doing a Q&A w/both John and Dennis Patrick. They showed a clip of Willie right after he's been munched on by Barnabas and Jason catches up w/him at a diner. Willie is nervous and keeps putting sugar in his coffee until Jason stops him and tells him to get ahold of himself yada-yada. When the clip ended, RD was being a smartass and saying that John was a consumate actor and his putting all that sugar in his coffee was the proof. He was being really rude and obnoxious. Johnny responded by physically turning his back on him--actually stood up and turned his chair the other way, and Dennis sarcastically said, "Roger, why don't you go back to your tee-shirts!" The audience roared w/laughter. But I remember thinking, what the hell is RD's problem etc...
Anyway, that said, Johnny is my favorite DS star, tied w/Marie Wallace, because they seem to truly enjoy meeting with and spending time w/all of us all weekend.
I don't think there's any other actor in the DS family who is more beloved than our gregarious John, and let me tell you, when he joins Grayson, Joan, Thayer, Michael, Don and the others "up there" (and may that day not happen for years to come!), many a DS fan and costar will shed a lot of tears.
Absolutely! I totally agree w/this. Let's hope Johnny is w/us for many more years to come. The fact that he lost 70 pounds last year gives me hope that he will be. ;)
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Likewise, I doubt we'd be talking about Dark Shadows today if Bert Convey had been cast as Barnabas. Frid's casting, like John Karlen's, was the necessary change and "lucky accident" that led to Dark Shadows being able to sustain and become the show we still love 40 years later.
Again, I agree wholeheartedly. Bert Convey was a good looking sort mind you, but I think of him as the host of Tattle-Tales and other great 70's game shows. This in no way implies that the man couldn't act. Indeed, he could have been classically trained for all I know. But I think Bob Costello hit the nail on the head when he said he found Jonathan "mysterious", he IS mysterious. And that IMHO, is a necessary ingrediant to playing Barnabas. And like my comments on a thread about Grayson as Julia, I think this is where Ben Cross failed as Barnabas. He wasn't mysterious. He was FRIGHTENING, no doubt. But lacked that underlying secretiveness that Frid played to the hilt. I also think, as I've also said before, Jonathan did a LOT of acting w/his eyes. I don't really recall Cross doing the same. And I can't imagine Bert Convey would have either. The only other actor I could see as Barnabas if Frid hadn't accepted the role, would be an actor named Richard Lynch. He played the title-roled vampire in Vampire in 1979 and like Frid, had a mysterious, dangerous, smoldering aura in his characterization as Anton Voytek.
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What I loved about Willie was that there were so many facets to hes personality. He would cower in the face of Barnabas' authority, but as soon as Barney's back was turned he would delight in taunting Adam, yet he could be a nervous, love-struck schoolboy when he was around Maggie, and still he probably wouldn't think twice about shooting somebody (like Joe Haskell) if he felt they were threatening him. And if you see John onscreen for 30 seconds, you can immediately see all these facets at the same time. I think that's what's called really good acting.
I was just watching an episode the other night where Adam was beating up Willie, and he gets away and goes running up the stairs - on all fours! That's just so...Willie. It made me laugh. He must have had a truly fantastic time playing that role.
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In an interview about his role as Willie, Karlen described the experience as "a FEAST of emotions" :)
The look in his eyes and the tones of his voice as he reminisced were like those of someone recalling some the best times of his life...
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BERT CONVY???!!!!!!
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I've said it before and I'll say it again, John Karlen made Willie a far more complex character and did more with him than I think James Hall could have done.
And yes John had some excellent scenes with Dennis Patrick and Mitchell Ryan. Hall, to me at least, didn't seem to click very well with the other actors.
Can you imagine, for instance, Hall being paired with Nancy Barrett? I certainly can't!
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Likewise, I doubt we'd be talking about Dark Shadows today if Bert Convey had been cast as Barnabas. What probably would have happened is that as originally planned, the character would have been staked by Dr. Julian Hoffman after a few weeks and the show would have been a footnote in tv history, probably being canceled in its second year. Frid's casting, like John Karlen's was the necessary change and "lucky accident" that led to Dark Shadows being able to sustain and become the show we still love 40 years later.
And from what I've heard about Frid and Karlen, they both landed the parts in very similar ways; both got a call from their agents while planning to go to CA for work. Interesting "coincidences".... nah, it was meant to BE.
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In an interview about his role as Willie, Karlen described the experience as "a FEAST of emotions" :)
The look in his eyes and the tones of his voice as he reminisced were like those of someone recalling some the best times of his life...
I spoke with the Old Man last month. I wanted to tell him how brilliant I thought his ressurection of Willie is on the new CD's - the radie plays. I mean I was really floored that he was able to play Willie so perfectly after all these years. I asked him if he'd been watching some of his episodes to help him remember how he played the character and he said that he hadn't. I persisted and told him that I was amazed that he played Willie so well. He exclaimed, "My darling, I AM Willie!"
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I spoke with the Old Man last month. I wanted to tell him how brilliant I thought his ressurection of Willie is on the new CD's - the radie plays. I mean I was really floored that he was able to play Willie so perfectly after all these years. I asked him if he'd been watching some of his episodes to help him remember how he played the character and he said that he hadn't. I persisted and told him that I was amazed that he played Willie so well. He exclaimed, "My darling, I AM Willie!"
I agree. He perfectly re-captured the essence of Willie. The Willie in these dramas is very much in keeping with the television incarnation of the character, yet Karlen manages to make him even more neurotic. Bearing witness to the dark side of Collinsport for so many years has taken its toll on poor Willie.
- Penny