DARK SHADOWS FORUMS
Members' Mausoleum => Calendar Events / Announcements Archive => Calendar Events / Announcements '24 I => Calendar Events / Announcements '05 II => Topic started by: proudhug on September 14, 2005, 07:23:08 PM
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Hey guys, my name's Doug and I'm new here, but I've been a DS fan for several years now. I've actually kept lots of notes on many of the details of the show and even began making a detailed timeline of the series. Recently, I've gotten the cool idea to start a Dark Shadows wiki to document all there is to know about Dark Shadows in all of its incarnations. I've only just begun it, but was wondering if there were others out there who'd be interested in helping out with this project. A lot of time and effort is needed to go into it, but every little bit helps, especially if we can establish a moderate sized community. So, what do you guys think?
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Welcome, proudhug!
I have to admit that I don't really know what the word "wiki" means. There are exhaustive collections of material relating to DS--episode guides, cast lists (going down to the people who did the "frug-ons" in the 1966-67 Blue Whale scenes), storyline summaries, set blueprints, original taping and broadcast schedules, etc etc available both in the many publications of the "Pomegranate Press" founded by one of the actresses, AND online via hundreds of websites, Yahoogroups, the "Robservations" series showcased here, the DS FAQ site curated by Mr Juggins, and on and on.
All that said, there's always room for a new DS fan/discussion group. Please do post a link to yours if you decide to start one.
Best wishes,
Gothick
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I have to admit that I don't really know what the word "wiki" means.
It stands for "what I know is" and is a collaborative project in which any visitor can edit the material.
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Actually, according to http://www.wikipedia.org:
The name [Wiki] is based on the Hawaiian term wiki wiki, meaning "quick", "fast" or "informal".
I've never heard the "What I Know Is" definition. Check out the Wikipedia for an example of a Wiki, Gothick. There are also other wikis for TV shows such as Star Trek's http://www.memory-alpha.com. Basically it's a massive encyclopedia which anyone can edit at any time. If you've got time, I highly recommend exploring some wikis and getting a feel for them.
The DS one I've begun really has next to nothing there so far. In order to establish the style and format, I'd like to get as much begun as I can before others jump in to help. Right now, I'm just feeling around to see how many people would be interested in contributing. Who knows, this may even eventually spring forth a whole new DS community and spark more interest and exposure for the show. I have a couple of the PP books, plus several of the original novels and comic books, and I've read most of the major resource sites on the 'net. The goal of the wiki is to cull as much information as possible into one location.
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Actually, according to http://www.wikipedia.org:
The name [Wiki] is based on the Hawaiian term wiki wiki, meaning "quick", "fast" or "informal".
I've never heard the "What I Know Is" definition.
Some online encyclopedias define it as an acronym. There are techies that swear by either origin. Take your picki. [wink2]
Welcome, proudhug!
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Oops, that should be www.memory-alpha.org ... not .com :D
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It sounds like a good idea, but my only thing is...what would you bring that we don't already have? Mr. Juggins' site has the DS FAQ, which is basically the definitive FAQ for the whole series, and Robin Vogel has her very insightful Robservations posted here. Even Luciaphil posts her thoughts on the episodes in her little area on here. Looking at that, the only thing I can honestly think of that isn't there are complete episode transcripts of each episode. What other things were you planning on adding?
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It's not so much about what new stuff is brought to the table (although I know there will be plenty of new stuff since we're all discovering new stuff in the show all the time), but rather a collaborative effort to put together every conceivable piece of Dark Shadows information in one easy-to-navigate location.
Here are some examples of what would be there.
Episodes
You can go on to the site and find all kinds of information about a specific episode you've just watched. There'll be the original dates of taping and broadcast, a synopsis, notes on the timeline, any memorable quotes. There'll be a complete cast listing for the episode, including which episode each character and actor appeared in previous to that one and which one they next appeared in. Same thing for the crew, certain locations or sets, or important props or items. You'll be able to find out where the episode has been released on video or DVD. There'll be a complete list of bloopers people have found in the episode, or just any trivia or important notes of interest.
Movies, Novels and Comics
A similar format will be available for each and every movie, novel and comic book that's ever been published, including notes on how things differ from other sources.
Characters
Say you want to know everything there is to know about your favorite character, or a character you don't remember much about. There will be an article for every character to have appeared on Dark Shadows, major or minor. The article will detail every bit of known facts (including contraditions... where would DS be without a myriad of contraditions) about the person, complete with episode sources. There will also be a complete list of appearances (episodes, novels, comics, etc.) for that character and which actor(s) played him/her/it.
Actors/Crew
The actors and the crew will each have thier own page with a list of the characters they've played, in addition to as much biographical information as is known about them. There will also be links to official or fan pages, etc.
Locations & Other Items
Same as with characters, locations such as the Collinsport Inn or the Eagle Hill Cemetery will have a seperate article detailing all known information and important events that have occurred there and when.
Video and DVD
Each video and DVD release will have its own page, explaining when it was released and what content it provides.
Reference Books
KLS and Pomegranate Press have released tons of reference books for DS and its spinoffs. Each one will have its own page, explaining the content, availability, etc.
Timeline
There will be a page for each year. Under the year, it will document every important fact that occurred within the show, either on-screen or mentioned in passing. Also, real life things will be listed there, seperatly, for example, airings of shows, convention dates, actors' birth or death dates.
Plus much, much more... literally whatever anyone can imagine people would want to read about. This will cover all things Dark Shadows, including all three TV incarnations and all of the spin-off material. Keep in mind though that this is meant to encyclopedic, meaning that there won't be reviews or opinions on things. Speculations on things should only be mentioned as asides (and labeled as a specualtion) and only appear if we all feel it's important.
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This sounds like a great, if daunting, project! Cool idea!
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Yes, it is very daunting. It takes a LONG time to get off the ground, but once a community of editors is established and most of the core structure is laid out, it becomes quite fun to add little things here and there.
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I am personally not at all enamoured of the idea that I would write something for this, then have some other individual go in and "edit" it with a lot of mistakes and bad writing. (You have to be aware that those of us who have been here for awhile have seen a lot of misiinformation about this series aired--some of it was in the DS entry in Wikipedia the last time I looked.)
So, this is not for me, but I hope you and your friends enjoy it. And, obviously, hope to see you posting more on this board.
Long live Dark Shadows!
G.
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It would seem to me that the very first person needed in this enterprise is an attorney with expertise in Copyright issues. Surely groups who create this sort of project run into that problem right from the start....no? ???
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Well, the beauty of wikis, and the whole reason they work, is that all previous versions of each article are saved, so if a page is vandalized or altered into something wrong or messy, it's a simple matter of changing it back. Also, each article has its own discussion page so people can question the validity of a piece of information before (or after) posting it, or make suggestions before jumping right into anything big.
I'm not trying to convince you to do something you don't want to do, of course, and I'm sorry you don't want to be involved. Of course you might change your mind in the future, I suppose. This is a project I've planned to do for a while now and gosh darn it if it takes me 20 years to do it all myself, it'll be done! ;) But since the whole purpose of a wiki is to pool resourses, so to speak, of course I had to ask around the DS community for help.
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It would seem to me that the very first person needed in this enterprise is an attorney with expertise in Copyright issues. Surely groups who create this sort of project run into that problem right from the start....no? ???
How so? Unless you're making transcripts or selling the information in some form, I don't see how any of it could be illegal. There exist many wikis of this type and to the best of my knowledge there has never been any problem. There are pages you can look up on wikipedia about uploading copyrighted text or images... neither of which we'd be doing.
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Unless you're making transcripts or selling the information in some form, I don't see how any of it could be illegal.
I'm afraid this isn't true. In the US, any work with even a minimum amount of originality is automatically copyrighted, and the right to distribute or reproduce it belongs exclusively to the copyright holder. Opinions expressed on these boards, for example, are protected by copyright law. Helping oneself to any work that's protected by copyright, even if its not for profit, is an infringement of the copyright owner's rights.
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Haha, I'm not even sure what we're talking about anymore. What does any of this have to do with copyrights? Nothing's being infringed upon, and even if it was, the U.S. has its "fair use" rule. If things were that strict, this site wouldn't exist, and neither would Mr. Juggins' or 95% of the websites in existence.
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Haha, I'm not even sure what we're talking about anymore. What does any of this have to do with copyrights?
Do you mean what do wikis have to do with copyright? Please forgive me for having taken the thread further off topic in my previous post, but I interpreted your "How so?" as a question.
Nothing's being infringed upon,
No one said anyone was guilty of infringement. You said there won't be any uploading of copyrighted text and images, and I find that highly commendable. You also made a comment that unless a person is making transcripts or selling the information, you don't see how there can be a violation, and I disagreed with that statement. Copyright claims HAVE been made involving DS by license holders, actors, fans, and website owners when transcripts were not involved and even when there was no profit.
and even if it was, the U.S. has its "fair use" rule.
Plot and content summaries, for example, may qualify under the fair use exception, but what I was saying is that these summaries should be original material and not copied.
If things were that strict, this site wouldn't exist, and neither would Mr. Juggins' or 95% of the websites in existence.
I think you may have missed my point. Whether or not copyright is enforced, strictly or otherwise, is at the discretion of the copyright holder. Just because Dan Curtis Productions, MPI, SciFi, Pomegranate Press and others may overlook some situations doesn't mean they can't, or won't, enforce others. If MysteriousB, dom and I were less vigilant about what is posted here, we may have been contacted over this issue by one or perhaps all of them. We have, however, enforced copyright on behalf of our posters.
The creators of the DS FAQ that you mentioned don't own the characters, storylines, title, and other aspects of DS, but they do hold a copyright on their compilation.
The task you're undertaking seems daunting, proudhug. I wish you all the best. :D
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Sorry, we got sort of off topic and I just got confused about what we were even talking about anymore. I don't pretend to know much about your copyright system, or mine (Canadian), so even if I felt there was a purpose at this point, I wouldn't be "equipped" to uphold any worthy discussion about it. But it seems we misunderstood each other anyway, I think. You thought I was suggesting copying summaries from other sites? Of course everything on the wiki should be original material, with the obvious exception of dialogue quotes and character names/situations and stuff, and possible screengrabs or book cover images. And of course if anyone lent their own copyrighted material to the site, that'd be cool.
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You thought I was suggesting copying summaries from other sites?
Um, no. :) I responded to your first 2 sentences in Reply #13.
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This sounds like a great, if daunting, project!
The task you're undertaking seems daunting, proudhug.
Apparently not as daunting as convincing people of the project's viability! ;)
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It sounds to me as if a "wiki" is a combination between a chatgroup or e-list (like the yahoogroups) AND a blog--perhaps like an affinity group on LiveJournal. From what you're saying, Proudhug, it's as much a social thing, a sharing of fannish enthusiasm, as it is an attempt to create a metatextual artifact focused around a specific topic (Dark Shadows).
I would think that the people who would be into this would be people who do other "wiki" projects. I'm obviously completely unfamiliar with those.
If you want to post links to other projects to give me a better idea of what you have in mind, that might help!
Good luck!
G.
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On the contrary, chatting and blogging are generally fobidden on wikis. Discussions are only encouraged when it pertains to the betterment of the site and it's specific articles. The idea is solely to collaboratively create an encyclopedic reference sourse for a specific topic.
Wikis are designed to be simple to use, in order enable the maximum number of participants. I posted a couple of links above, but once again here are some excellent examples of wikis using the MediaWiki software:
* http://www.wikipedia.org - A massive encyclopedia of every topic. You've probably stumbled upon this at some point even if you didn't know it.
* http://www.memory-alpha.org - A Star Trek wiki, probably the largest fan-based wiki online.
* http://starwars.wikicities.com/wiki/Main_Page - A Star Wars wiki similar to the one above.
* http://doom.wikicities.com/wiki/Entryway - A wiki pertaining to all things related to the Doom series of video games.
Being a big fan of Dark Shadows, I naturally felt the format would lend itself nicely to our favorite soap opera as well. Until recently, I too had been unfamilar/uninterested in the concept, but upon further investigation, I've found the format fascinating and the syntax extremely simple.
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Thanks for those links. I did check out Memory Alpha and read the entry on Nurse Chapel. Great stuff!
G.
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Well, I've gotten stuff for the wiki done up to the 5th episode of the original series. That doesn't sound like much, but it really is a lot of tedious work, especially at the beginning. I'm going through the episodes in order, adding all information as it's revealed, so even though I'm fully aware of much of what is changed later on, I'm not bothering to add anything until I get to the actual episode it's revealed. This way, all of the information will be properly sourced. Of course, anyone is welcome to pick it up at another point in the series and start going from there. There's a "Community Portal" section of the site with some examples of places people could start submitting information. Anyway, here's the link:
http://darkshadows.wikicities.com.
Let me know what you guys think, and if or how you can contribute. The wiki editor is extremely easy to figure out and if anyone has any questions, there are several information sources that explain things if I can't do it for you. And like I said, even if no one else is able to work on this with me, it's still something I'll continue to stumble through, because I think it'lll be an awesome resource site when it's "done."
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This is great proudhug, I'll look at it in depth as soon as I get a chance. It really looks like lots of work. If I can contribe anything I sure will.
Misa
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Very cool, proudhug! My only question is, what do you plan to do in consideration of how the backstories changed as the show progressed? Could get confusing. I would be willing to help in some way - it's a wonderful idea!
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For the sake of completeness, all contradictory information will be noted somewhere in encyclopedia.
I can see two types of instances. The first is where something changed and (usually) the latter is considered "canon". An example would be Josette's death being in the 18th century rather than the 19th century. In this case, the more accepted time period (18th Century) gets precedence in any articles obviously, since this is what we actually saw. This contradiction could be noted either in the actual text or as a footnote. So, a note like "The Collins family album mistakenly lists Josette's life from 1810-1834." could appear in the article proper, or be placed as an italics footnote: "In episode 52, Josette's birth and death years were given as 1810 and 1834 respectively. This was alterered when blah blah blah."
The second type of instance would be where neither piece of information has any more credence over the other. This may be because both were mentioned only one time in the same manor and can't be reconciled, but don't contradict any other accepted facts. In this case, it's probably best to list both pieces of information in a neutral way and let the reader pick which they prefer to believe.
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Hi,
I was wondering why you think the episodes take place in 1967?
Misa
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I answered this question in my TALK page on the site, but I might as well put it here, too.
When I get around to filling in the timeline information that I have for each year, this will become clear. A couple years ago, I began creating a very detailed timeline of events of the show... a massive headache at times, as you can imagine (though the early episodes actually do hold up pretty well). I've currently only gotten up to about episode 180 so far (the file's about 1Mb in size right now already), but it's pretty evident that the timeline in the show (and most soap operas) doesn't sync up with the rate at which time progressed in "real life." For example, the first seventy episodes of Dark Shadows take place merely over one week in the lives of the Collinsport residents! That's an average of two weeks of our time per one day in Collinsport. Naturally over time, things don't quite line up. The first time the year is actually mentioned on the show is during a 1967 episode. Backdating, you will learn that Victoria and Burke's train actually arrived in Collinsport in 1967! Fortunately, this is consistent with David's age being given as nine in both '66 and '67 epsides, as well as Liz's time on the hill being eighteen years.
I hope that clears things up. Placing the "contemporary" episodes in the year they aired doesn't make the timeline work.
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Oh! Thanks for the explaination it makes sense now.
Misa
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Out of curiosity, who here is Mysticpen?
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Out of curiosity, who here is Mysticpen?
I'll be damned if I can figure how one member of wikicites can send a personal message to another "wikicitizen," but since Mysticpen is contributing to your DS wiki perhaps you can leave a message for him there?
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Each person (just like each article) has their own "discussion" page. As far as I know, you can't send private messages like on a messageboard, though.
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Each person (just like each article) has their own "discussion" page. As far as I know, you can't send private messages like on a messageboard, though.
So what do you do in order to keep in touch with those working on the project? Do you have to first create your own messageboard so that contributors can communitcate with one another? Or am I mistaken in assuming that there would be a need for contributors to contact one another?
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Of course contributors should be contacting each other to discuss how things should be done, but where you write it depends on what you plan to talk about. If you want to discuss something in a specific article that you think should be changed or added or whatever, you can post your thoughts in the Discussion page for that specific article. If you want to ask a question of a specific editor about what they're doing, you can post the question in that person's Discussion page. There are also other areas (or if there aren't, they can be created) such as the Community Portal, where general discussion about the wiki can be posted.
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If you want to ask a question of a specific editor about what they're doing, you can post the question in that person's Discussion page.
Ah, I see your discussion page, and that you and Mysticpen did contact each other yesterday. The conversation is nearly identical to one you had here with a poster yesterday, so doesn't that tell you who MP is here on the boards? ???
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Haha, possibly I suppose. I just wasn't about to assume that since I got asked the same question twice that it was the same person asking.
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Out of curiosity, who here is Mysticpen?
I am. I just saw your response in the user talk area on Collinwiki before logging in here. Thanks for the explanation about the 1966=1967 situation. :)
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I just wasn't about to assume that since I got asked the same question twice that it was the same person asking.
LOL, a good idea, apparently. :D
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Thanks, Doug for Collinwiki. I would love to contribute. I had toyed with the idea of doing something similar some time ago (not wiki style but my own creation) but the enormity of the task put me off. If I have suggestions of addtional things to keep track of (appearance of supernatural creatures, or incidents and use of magic and witchcraft) how best would it be to offer these suggestions?
Nelson
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Well obviously, the best way to offer your suggestions would be to be bold and go ahead and add them to the site! ;) Or you can post them either here in this thread, or preferably on the actual site under the Discussion tab for whichever topic you have. For a general suggestion about the site or a suggestion on something that doesn't exist yet on the site, you can add it to the Community Portal or its Discussion page.
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Or you can post them either here in this thread
Actually, rather than publicly discussing suggestions for the wiki project that really have nothing to do with this forum, it might be preferable if people were to contact proudhug via the forum's PM feature or by e-mail. :)
PMs can be sent by clicking on the PM icon ((http://www.dsboards.com/SMF/Themes/default/images/im_on.gif) if he's on the forum, (http://www.dsboards.com/SMF/Themes/default/images/im_off.gif) if he isn't) in any of proudhug's posts, or by clicking the "Send this cousin a personal message." link in his profile.
Clicking the e-mail icon ((http://www.dsboards.com/SMF/Themes/default/images/email_sm.gif) in the Variations on Blue theme, (http://www.dsboards.com/SMF/Themes/bloodred/images/email_sm.gif) in the bloodred theme) in any of his posts will bring up the e-mail feature of a browser or someone's actual e-mail program if the browser is set up that way. Or if one doesn't have an e-mail setup with their browser, they can find proudhug's e-mail address in his profile.
However, all that being said, please absolutely feel free to publicly post about the progress of the wiki and/or to inform people of any newly added features. I'm sure everyone will definitely be eagerly looking forward to learning how the project progresses.
or preferably on the actual site under the Discussion tab for whichever topic you have.
That would certainly seem to be the best idea. ;)
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Sorry, if you thought I was trying to imply that this forum should become homebase for discussion of the wiki creation. I was just suggesting that if people are having trouble figuring out the wiki's communication system, they could post they're questions in this thread until they get the hang of it. We're all still here for Dark Shadows, after all. I'd've thought that any discussion about DS would be welcomed.
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Sorry, if you thought I was trying to imply that this forum should become homebase for discussion of the wiki creation. I was just suggesting that if people are having trouble figuring out the wiki's communication system, they could post they're questions in this thread until they get the hang of it.
MB wasn't suggesting that interested parties be thrown to an unfamiliar system; he offered the PM and email capabilities of the Forum. There are key differences between discussions about your project that end up in the posting area and in either PM, email, or the talk pages of wikicites. The latter options do not use a significant amount, if any, of this site's bandwidth, they do not show up as new posts for all visitors to read, they are not stored indefinitely on the Forum's webspace, and they do not have to be moderated. That last one applies only to my mods and myself-- we read every word posted here. While MB and I honestly never thought it was your intention to make this your homebase, it seems to us that you were inviting others to brainstorm with you here, which means that any planning conducted in posts between you and your wiki editors would have to be stored, seen in post listings by visitors who are not involved with your project, and read by the board mods.
We're all still here for Dark Shadows, after all. I'd've thought that any discussion about DS would be welcomed.
Proudhug, we support your project-- I think it's great-- and you're welcome to report about it here, but to help you understand where MB and I are coming from when it comes to others posting suggestions or communcating with you about your project, please consider that if you use this topic to brainstorm and communicate with your editors, regardless of how often it occurs, then wouldn't that open the door for every other Forum cousin that is involved in a DS project outside of these boards to discuss their projects here with their editors, or to communicate here with others working on their site? If this were to occur, we would not have the space and the mods would not have the time to devote to the actual purpose of these forums, which is (from the guidelines) to discuss DARK SHADOWS, its characters, actors and storylines. With all due respect, what you propose (for others 'to offer your suggestions" about your project) is not discussing DS-- it is conducting the business of your site.
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Thanks for the clarification, Midnite. :) I wasn't inviting others to brainstorm here, I was just inviting others to brainstorm period, not thinking it mattered where (though naturally, I'd prefer that it's all kept on the wiki). I personally don't distinguish between discussing Dark Shadows and discussing CollinWiki, be it the content of the project or the creation of the project, so that's why I was a little confused. Having just reread this site's guidelines, I see that the board's purpose isn't as broad as I'd thought, and that you're completely right that discussing what to include on CollinWiki may not at times be appropriate for this messageboard.
Haha, once again, I think this thread has gone into irrelevant territory, but oh well.
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Thanks for the clarification, Midnite.
Oops - I'm sorry if I didn't make the point as clear as I should have. :(
naturally, I'd prefer that it's all kept on the wiki
Something that you might want to think about is making a graphic link like MsCriseyde and victoriawinters have in their sigs or simply adding a text link to your sig and having it point to the wiki's Community Portal or a Discussion page where people can brainstorm ideas. That could make it easier for people to share their ideas, and it would be available in all your posts, so that way people wouldn't only have the link to the wiki that you've provided in reply #23 of this topic. ;)