DARK SHADOWS FORUMS

General Discussions => Current Talk Archive => Current Talk '24 I => Current Talk '15 I => Topic started by: Watching Project on June 09, 2015, 05:10:00 PM

Title: Discuss - Infamous Ep #0938
Post by: Watching Project on June 09, 2015, 05:10:00 PM

Quote from: ROBINV on May 13, 2003, 08:43:22 PM

Robservations Infamous #938

And if you'd care to look back, the first WP discussion topic for this ep:

Quote from: MagnusTrask on February 18, 2010, 01:44:34 AM

Re: Discuss - Infamous Ep #0938

Title: Re: Discuss - Infamous Ep #0938
Post by: MagnusTrask on June 10, 2015, 07:29:09 AM

Whose VO?  The guy who played Merle Oberon?  (I always call him that.)  That was the only newly-shot scene from the past, I think.  This is the story-so-far recap episode.  It was apparently promoted as a chance for (new) viewers to catch up. 

Barnabas and Julia excange all their information.  Julia breaks her promise to Angelique, to keep her presence secret, without hesitation or regret.  We get a new scene at the cairn in 1796, with Oberon making the threat also made later by the later Leviathan.  Barnabas is then supposed to push it out of consciousness, but still be affected by it. 

Welcome back,"Sheriff Davenport"!!  (As his gravestone puts it, no first name.)

Title: Re: Discuss - Infamous Ep #0938
Post by: DarkLady on June 10, 2015, 08:47:53 PM

Yes, MT, the VO was by Peter Lombard, who played (not Merle) Oberon.  [ghost_cheesy]

I love the opening scene at the Old House. The drawing room is completely dark except for the bright fire. Barn and Julia sit opposite each other. It couldn't be more romantic, but Barn's narrative is far from romantic. DS Wiki has a beautiful frame grab of the scene.

And yes, I think the scene with Oberon is the only one that was reshot, so that Oberon could use the Leviathan box to revive Barnabas. Apparently he never learns that Kitty/Josette gave in to despair and took poison when he didn't return to her. I suppose someone came to the Old House and found her body--because nobody mentions finding a skeleton in Josette's room.

Julia does break her promise to Angelique, doesn't she.

Apparently Sheriff Davenport loved his job so much that he wanted "Sheriff" on his tombstone.

Title: Re: Discuss - Infamous Ep #0938
Post by: Mysterious Benefactor on June 10, 2015, 09:39:41 PM

Quote from: MagnusTrask on June 10, 2015, 07:29:09 AM

It was apparently promoted as a chance for (new) viewers to catch up.

Actually, it was heavily promoted as a possible way to lure back viewers who had abandoned DS because of the Leviathans storyline, as delivering the answers to many questions that had been left dangling (like the fate of Petofi), and as finally revealing "the real story of the terrifying Leviathan plot" - but the ep never really delivered as promised. All it did was recap what loyal viewers already knew. Which is why so many fans were less than pleased with the ep and why they wrote letters such as the ones I shared back in '03 in this post:

Quote from: Mysterious Benefactor on June 06, 2003, 03:27:43 AM

Re:1970 program announcement

Quote from: DarkLady on June 10, 2015, 08:47:53 PM

Apparently Sheriff Davenport loved his job so much that he wanted "Sheriff" on his tombstone.

Well, that explains it, then!!  [rofl10]

Title: Re: Discuss - Infamous Ep #0938
Post by: Uncle Roger on June 10, 2015, 11:36:09 PM

It was very, very unusual to see DS (or any daytime serial) promoted in prime time and those commercials were everywhere.

It was rather frustrating to see them bring up old plot threads, like Petofi and Josette for no real purpose. The Josette angle is dealt with later on. Sort of. But the Petofi thread never is. It would be interesting to see where the Leviathan story was going to go, had it not been derailed by extreme viewer dissatisfaction and the impending movie.

As for Sheriff, I think we've all seen stranger first names than that. There was someone who worked in my agency whose actual fbirth name was Major. And that was no Catch 22! [ghost_rolleyes]

Title: Re: Discuss - Infamous Ep #0938
Post by: Gothick on June 11, 2015, 03:45:51 AM

It's fascinating to read those old letters from 1970.  I actually enjoyed the Leviathan storyline at the time.  Nobody I knew watched the show at that point so I watched in my own weirdie bubble.  I was already a Lovecraft fan at that point so I actually thought bringing a touch of HPL to DS was cool.

I do remember the announcements regarding this episode.  I was somewhat puzzled because the "revelation" turned out to be a re-cap. 

G.

Title: Re: Discuss - Infamous Ep #0938
Post by: Uncle Roger on June 11, 2015, 05:28:23 AM

Given the turn around time in magazine publishing, it's quite possible that the Leviathan story was over and done with by the time the magazine hit the newstand.

Title: Re: Discuss - Infamous Ep #0938
Post by: Mysterious Benefactor on June 11, 2015, 05:40:00 AM

I have no idea when it comes to the other magazines, but After Noon TV was about two months or maybe even less behind real time because I remember a letter about the fire staged in Ep #693, which aired on February 19, 1969, being published in the issue that hit stores in April. So, given however long between the time the person wrote the letter, mailed it, it arrived at the After Noon TV offices, it was read, it was selected for publication, and the issue with it hit stores, that would have been about the delay time between real time and the issue hitting stores...

Title: Re: Discuss - Infamous Ep #0938
Post by: michael c on June 12, 2015, 03:12:57 AM

given how far out the previous storyline...1897...had been I don't really get why everyone was so up in arms about this???

from 1968 on the show was completely over the top plot wise.

Title: Re: Discuss - Infamous Ep #0938
Post by: Uncle Roger on June 12, 2015, 04:12:05 AM

In 2015, it is kind of hard to see what all of the fuss was about. In 1969/70, it was quite different. A large portion of the fan base (at least the more vocal part of fandom) clearly didn't want to see Barnabas as a bad guy. Frid actually did some of his best work during the early part of the story. But it wasn't what the fans wanted to see.

Perhaps if the story had been structured differently, it might have been better received. For example, if Count Petofi had popped into 1969 with the Leviathan box, with Barnabas, Julia and later Quentin battling him, the story might have been more successful.

Title: Re: Discuss - Infamous Ep #0938
Post by: Gothick on June 12, 2015, 12:56:02 PM

I actually thought Chris Bernau and Marie Wallace were wonderful in their work as the Todds.  I think the people who wrote those letters may have lacked what we used to call "maturity"--my Mom would say "Don't be so immature."  The Todds were very different from what kids were used to seeing on the show at that point.  The whole set-up was an unexpected step in a very different direction.  I still think the first five or six weeks were really good, some of the best episodes the shows produced. IMO it got bad when DC was told that the ratings were dropping and, more significantly, had to figure out how he was going to do the movie while the series was still in production.  Whoever hit on the whole Parallel Time shtick really should have gotten a bonus because it was a brilliant concept to achieve that goal--have some actors carrying on with the series while most of the heavy hitters were in Tarrytown.  It meant that the wind-up of Leviathan was really speeded-up, though.  I do feel for the writers being given those targets and having to come up with stuff that hadn't been properly planned.

G.

Title: Re: Discuss - Infamous Ep #0938
Post by: DarkLady on June 12, 2015, 03:00:14 PM

Uncle Roger and Gothick, I love your posts! I think it would have been brilliant to have Petofi arrive in the present (1969) with the box. We never did get a showdown between him and Quentin in 1897, and it would have been fun to have one.

I agree that Chris Bernau and Marie Wallace were utterly convincing as the Todds and really engaged me as their story progressed--or, I guess went downhill. They were tragic figures and I felt for them both. Then again, I didn't watch the show when it first aired. I was much older when I finally caught it on local public TV and then on the old SciFi channel in the 1980s.

It seems that whenever the ratings started dropping, DC would freak out and start plundering various sources (Dorian Grey, Orpheus, whatever, not to mention Dracula and Frankenstein) for plot lines. Most of the time, the writers did amazingly well at concocting stories, and when they got the chance they wrote some dialogue that was brilliant and even sensitive.

True, the Leviathan story speeded up toward the end, but by then it had gotten totally out of control and I was glad to see the end of it. I'm sure not everyone would agree, but I loved the whole parallel time thing.

Title: Re: Discuss - Infamous Ep #0938
Post by: Uncle Roger on June 12, 2015, 06:10:04 PM

Thank you so much, Dark Lady. A story that engages the characters engages the audience. Perhaps if the head Leviathan had been a shape shifting Count Petofi, the threat to Carolyn might have seemed more real to the audience.

From here on out, the show gets even crazier, shifting from one era to another. Daytime serials, at least in that era, were not meant to be seen on a daily basis. Other shows did a lot of recapping and used flashbacks a lot more. If you missed an episode, let alone a week of Dark Shadows, you may well have never seen the story you were watching be resolved.

Title: Re: Discuss - Infamous Ep #0938
Post by: michael c on June 12, 2015, 10:48:56 PM

certainly 1968, and one could argue much of 1897, were told from a rather "adolescent" sensibility. it was the stuff of lunch boxes and bubble gum cards...


the introductory weeks of 'leviathan'...a young couple establishing an antique shop in town, paul stoddard's return from the abyss...definitely had a more "adult" sensibility. there were days when it seemed more like an episode of 'edge of night' than a show that had become synonymous with monsters.

which is actually what I liked about the period. it was wonderfully dark and atmospheric before it started to go off the deep end. and the todds were great, epically tragic figures in the whole thing. unlike some other figures in the story they didn't "sign up" for any of it but paid the ultimate price for being in the wrong place at the wrong time.

Title: Re: Discuss - Infamous Ep #0938
Post by: Gothick on June 14, 2015, 01:33:57 AM

Dark Lady, I actually love PT 1970.  It is the last storyline with a plot that has a coherent development, and a finale that draws together all the loose threads in a satisfactory conclusion. Granted there are speed bumps--notably Aunt Hannah's abrupt disappearance once Hoffman comes back (she was evidently viewed as a surrogate for Hoffman, as Alexalique's co-conspirator), and the whole Claude North thing (I wonder if Brian Sturdivant just failed to show up for work one day--that's what happened with Craig Slocum).  I also enjoy getting to see Edmonds, Bennett, Thayer and others play such way-out characters.  John Karlen played an alcoholic writer, but Will H. Loomis was still more with-it than his previous characterizations--though I will always love Willie best of all his roles.  The Jekyll/Hyde plot isn't all that interesting to me, but every storyline has something that I feel the urge to fast forward through (in 1795, it's the Vicki/Peter stuff and Vicki's endless trial scenes).

The final weeks of Leviathan are memorable for that awful "Shadow" "special" effect.  Ah well.

G.

Title: Re: Discuss - Infamous Ep #0938
Post by: tragic bat on June 14, 2015, 10:05:33 AM

There was another, equally campy scene in 1840 where Julia recaps/summarizes the recent plotlines with professor Stokes.  I found both of them to be obnoxious and a poor way to explain shoddy writing.  It seemed more likely that Barnabas was under a spell, given his behavior, and not just being blackmailed. 

Where Leviathins lost me was in the seemingly endless episodes that surrounded the leviathan kids playing with david and amy...certainly not what I would refer to as a mature storyline.  I also couldn't stand Paul Stoddard and his undignified spiral towards insanity inside so many dingy rooms.   The character seemed much more interesting back in the Jason McGuire era.

Title: Re: Discuss - Infamous Ep #0938
Post by: michael c on June 14, 2015, 11:14:15 AM

Quote from: Gothick on June 14, 2015, 01:33:57 AM

Dark Lady, I actually love PT 1970.  It is the last storyline with a plot that has a coherent development, and a finale that draws together all the loose threads in a satisfactory conclusion. Granted there are speed bumps--notably Aunt Hannah's abrupt disappearance once Hoffman comes back (she was evidently viewed as a surrogate for Hoffman, as Alexalique's co-conspirator), and the whole Claude North thing (I wonder if Brian Sturdivant just failed to show up for work one day--that's what happened with Craig Slocum).  I also enjoy getting to see Edmonds, Bennett, Thayer and others play such way-out characters.  John Karlen played an alcoholic writer, but Will H. Loomis was still more with-it than his previous characterizations--though I will always love Willie best of all his roles.  The Jekyll/Hyde plot isn't all that interesting to me, but every storyline has something that I feel the urge to fast forward through (in 1795, it's the Vicki/Peter stuff and Vicki's endless trial scenes).

The final weeks of Leviathan are memorable for that awful "Shadow" "special" effect.  Ah well.

as you know I'm also a great fan of 1970PT. it's planned brevity made for a nice, tight, concise little moment. it was visually very appealing and had it's own unique atmosphere. as I recall they even employed a different set of musical cues to heighten the effect of being in a "different" universe.

for me it was the last truly original storyline (if "original" is a word that can really be applied to heavily cribbed material) before the whole thing started to devolve into retreads. except for the brief jaunt to 1995 it was the last storyline/time period I was actually engaged in.

Title: Re: Discuss - Infamous Ep #0938
Post by: DarkLady on June 14, 2015, 04:31:47 PM

I'm so glad to find another 1995 fan! That thread and the 1970s story that followed it had some of my favorite moments. I thought the 1970 mystery plot was very well set up and more or less coherently developed, as Barnabas and Julia try to undo or remake the events that led up to the 1995 disaster.

Regarding Claude North, [spoiler]I think his final scene showed him stabbed to death in the mausoleum--although I don't remember if we actually see his face. It could have been a stand-in.[/spoiler]

Vicky's trial was endless, wasn't it!

Title: Re: Discuss - Infamous Ep #0938
Post by: michael c on June 14, 2015, 07:32:57 PM

by the time Vicki's witchcraft trial commenced most of the 1795 characters were dead or soon would be. it was sort of "denouement". the "action" of the period was largely over and it was just sort of wrapping things up...


since Vicki would be the only character returning to "the present" it was more about building a bridge for her to return in a dramatic way. it wasn't really woven into the overall story arc.

Title: Re: Discuss - Infamous Ep #0938
Post by: Gothick on June 14, 2015, 09:08:08 PM

Dark Lady, when I mentioned Claude North, I wasn't thinking of his demise but more the fact that there was his huge build-up to his appearance and then all of a sudden--he was dead.

I know it wasn't possible for Claude to be played by Thayer David, but IMO the role needed an actor of that kind of presence and depth.

Of course I did think Brian Sturdivant was a sexy little thing... just not the right actor for that role.

G.

Title: Re: Discuss - Infamous Ep #0938
Post by: michael c on June 14, 2015, 09:29:49 PM

by the time they started mentioning "claude north" (every five minutes) the time period was winding down anyways...


it was really much ado about nothing.  [ghost_huh]

Title: Re: Discuss - Infamous Ep #0938
Post by: Gothick on June 15, 2015, 04:09:25 PM

An even bigger "much ado about nothing" was the whole Java Queen thing, endlessly discussed and speculated upon during the Gerard haunting story in the Summer of 1970.  Complete with pirates who later became zombies, and a cool model of the Queen that showed up in David's bedroom.

Then we go to 1840 and ... zilch.  I think during the big plotting session that supposedly happened over a weekend in Sept. (or maybe even early Oct.) of '70, somebody realized just how difficult it would be to stage a shipboard romance storyline in the confines of the existing studio space.

That wasn't the only major continuity gaffe in 1840, but it was a doozy.

G.

Title: Re: Discuss - Infamous Ep #0938
Post by: Uncle Roger on June 15, 2015, 04:57:10 PM

As the Adventures in Leviathanland draws to a close, its principle failure for me is the lack of any real screen chemistry between Nancy Barrett and Christopher Pennock. Someone else must have thought so too, as they are never paired romantically again.

All of the core Leviathan cult members are killed off. Elizabeth (and presumably Amy and David) are given very selective amnesia. They appear to remember Jeb but have no apparent recollection of anything they did on his behalf.

The show rebounds very well with the parallel time story. Dark Shadows is once again, as has been posted before, a story about a family. True, the Cyrus/Yaeger stuff lacks cohesion but the Tomb of Ligea/Rebecca elements are a new twist to the formula. Lara Parker does some of her best work as the true Alexis Stokes and I was genuinely sorry to see her go.

The 1995/1970 starts off so well, establishing the threat of impending doom. Somewhere along the way, though, it just loses that.

And, after that, it's everything including the kitchen sink.

Title: Re: Discuss - Infamous Ep #0938
Post by: MagnusTrask on June 21, 2015, 11:44:50 AM

Leviathans was great at the start for me just because it took awhile to hit me that we'd never see the creature, ever.  Now it's never great to me, since the suspense isn't there.  At least when they throw the kitchen sink in later, it livens things up.  Barnabas walking and talking without any hint of the real character in there anyplace is alienating.

Interesting DL, maybe Dan thought falling back on classic stories and retelling them was "safer".  It wasn't, unless you only care about kid viewers who haven't seen those stories (so you can steal them safely without viewer groans or resentment), but even kids knew Jeckyl and Hyde and especially Frankenstein.  And would Rebecca interest them?

Title: Re: Discuss - Infamous Ep #0938
Post by: michael c on June 21, 2015, 02:53:01 PM

Marie Wallace said in an interview that to this day she doesn't understand the Leviathan plot...


she just read the scripts that were handed to her but never knew where it was going.

Title: Re: Discuss - Infamous Ep #0938
Post by: Uncle Roger on June 21, 2015, 06:55:35 PM

Well, there you go.

It would have been interesting to see exactly where this story was headed before it got derailed. Maybe a Rosemary's Baby story for Jeb and Carolyn?

Title: Re: Discuss - Infamous Ep #0938
Post by: michael c on June 21, 2015, 09:32:52 PM

as I recall the recently married Jeb and Carolyn was the first (and only?) time we actually saw a couple in bed together on the show.  [ghost_blink]

Title: Re: Discuss - Infamous Ep #0938
Post by: Cousin_Barnabas on June 22, 2015, 05:17:50 AM

Quote from: michael c on June 21, 2015, 09:32:52 PM

as I recall the recently married Jeb and Carolyn was the first (and only?) time we actually saw a couple in bed together on the show.  [ghost_blink]

There was a pretty racy scene involving Gerard and Daphne(?) on a bed in 1840.  I still can't get over that that appeared on DS.

Title: Re: Discuss - Infamous Ep #0938
Post by: DarkLady on June 22, 2015, 03:43:43 PM

Yes, I remember both of those bedroom scenes too! The one with Gerard and Daphne was pretty steamy!

A Rosemary's Baby for Jeb and Carolyn would have been amazing!  [ghost_grin]

And true, we don't get to see the creature, but we can infer a lot about from some very clever effects. So far we know that its touch (or whatever) burns like acid.

Title: Re: Discuss - Infamous Ep #0938
Post by: Uncle Roger on June 22, 2015, 06:02:06 PM

There's plenty of sexual tension throughout the series, with very little actual activity. Aside from that and the Make Me Write Bad Checks hookup between Catherine and Bramwell, most of the "action" seems to take place off screen, if it happens at all.

Title: Re: Discuss - Infamous Ep #0938
Post by: DarkLady on June 22, 2015, 06:44:42 PM

Right, Uncle Roger! Definitely something to look forward to! [ghost_cheesy]

Title: Re: Discuss - Infamous Ep #0938
Post by: MagnusTrask on June 24, 2015, 06:07:10 AM

It's sort of amazing that it was relatively racy for DS to have indicated that Bran And Catherine did just have sex while the camera was elsewhere.  Society itself wasn't so puritanical, not even the oldsters.  Maybe paranoia about the "sexual revolution" caused a reverse reaction, to keep a lid on it.  Oh yeah, kids had been racing home to watch it.  Well, they weren't anymore at this point, I'm sure.

Title: Re: Discuss - Infamous Ep #0938
Post by: Cousin_Barnabas on June 24, 2015, 07:16:14 AM

I think DS already had a lot going against it.  It didn't need another group to rally against steamy scenes.  It already made its enemies with those who found it to be "in league with the Devil," as our dear Reverend Trask would say. 

Title: Re: Discuss - Infamous Ep #0938
Post by: MagnusTrask on June 24, 2015, 07:20:55 AM

I remember that at least in the North, it would have sounded like something out of the Dark Ages, the idea of people taking supernatural stuff so seriously that you could have a religious objection to seeing it on TV.

Title: Re: Discuss - Infamous Ep #0938
Post by: Uncle Roger on June 24, 2015, 02:30:06 PM

Even given the context of the time, DS is remarkably chaste. I don't recall if there was a lot of on screen bedhopping but the pregnancy rate on daytime tv has always seemed higher than that of most third world countries. On a more traditional soap, Angelique would have attempted to make a permanent bond with Barnabas by getting pregnant. Yet, the only character who becomes pregnant during an on camera story  is Catherine. Perhaps DS wasn't considered to be that kind of show (whatever that may mean) but, now that I think about it, it's the only on screen pregnancy in all of DS.

Title: Re: Discuss - Infamous Ep #0938
Post by: DarkLady on June 24, 2015, 02:36:08 PM

Magnus, Cousin Barnabas, and Uncle Roger, I like all of your comments! But I would also add that the Bramwell-Catherine encounter resonated all the more powerfully precisely because the writers left it entirely to our imaginations.

I remember that when I first started hearing that people in--ahem!--other parts of the country took all the supernatural stuff seriously, I was absolutely incredulous. What did I know. *sigh*

Title: Re: Discuss - Infamous Ep #0938
Post by: MagnusTrask on June 25, 2015, 09:53:17 PM

People talk about news only coming from a tiny number of corporate-controlled sources now, but back then, there was a unified point of view (what conservatives like to call trhe "liberal media"), a NYC perspective, that worked for effective news reporting, but which didn't show us all points of view around the country, on a lot of different issues.  That's why, understandably, conservatives seized their share of the media, when more media became available with cable, etc..  Well, at least things like paranoia over witchcraft in real life is out in the open now.  I wonder if it really is worse now, or if it's just covered more.

Title: Re: Discuss - Infamous Ep #0938
Post by: DarkLady on June 26, 2015, 03:43:07 PM

That could be true, Magnus.

Title: Re: Discuss - Infamous Ep #0938
Post by: Patti Feinberg on June 27, 2015, 08:43:49 PM

  [laughing4] [stfl] [lol2]

Merle Oberon lolololol!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

(Recently, I posted one of their names as Hesbola.)

Word....before anyone wrote it, I wondered about Petofi....I genuinely think he would have fled. (Not King Johnny though.)

It was 'weird' having Barnabas be 'mean', but, it was good acting.

Sorry, I'll always hate the Todds.

Patti

[color] [color] [color]

Title: Re: Discuss - Infamous Ep #0938
Post by: Patti Feinberg on June 29, 2015, 02:14:29 AM

Cher,,,,Sheriff same/diff.

He is an oaf! I hate him! WHERE'S KING JOHNNY WHEN YOU NEED HIM???

I would've called him, thanked him for the roses, then when he asks if they're still on for 8pm, I'd laugh.

GET BENT BUDDY.

I'm in rare form tonight,

Patti

[color] [color] [color]

Actually, I'd like to sic the Haitian (Heroes) on him...

Title: Re: Discuss - Infamous Ep #0938
Post by: MagnusTrask on June 30, 2015, 03:42:01 AM

Quote from: Patti on June 29, 2015, 02:14:29 AM

GET BENT BUDDY.

Chuckle.  And I always imagine that hooded actor calling out in a resonant, dignified voice, "I am Merle Oberon!!"