DARK SHADOWS FORUMS
General Discussions => Current Talk Archive => Current Talk '24 I => Current Talk '04 I => Topic started by: Devlin66 on May 21, 2004, 06:43:34 AM
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I am watching the first season of DS on VHS and would welcome any posters who would like to dialogue or comment on the storyline. I have some vivid recollections of watching this as an 11 year old in 1966, but as time has passed i have changed some of my opinions on certain characters----i have just concluded episode 30- airdate aug 5-1966. Hope to hear from someone that thinks pre barnabas is kewl too!
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When I first saw the pre-Barnabas episodes after watching the last four years of the show, I must admit that I wasn't too impressed. I felt that the plot dragged on and the dialogue was very repetitive and dull; the characters constantly repeated previous conversations and rehased old problems, evidently for the benefit of someone in the audience who was tuning in for the first time. It wasn't quite as exciting as the suspense-charged, supernaturally-based episodes that I was used to seeing, but it was interesting to see how DS had all begun and to see the characters taking shape and asserting themselves. Collinsport really was a seemingly average, casual, close little town before Barnabas arrived. A lot of that everyday flavor was lost in later years.
Lately I've been watching the old episodes again in concert with fans on another message board, and I have to say that I am enjoying them much more than I originally did. Now I can't remember why I thought they were so boring. Mostly, I enjoy the character development and the fact that people like Liz, Roger, and Vicki are such prominent figures when in later years, they were pushed to the backburner. It's a lot of fun to look back after watching the entire series and see how much the characters changed. Carolyn is one such character who really grew up. All the characters are more vibrant when set against a more subtle supernatural background.
In particular, I am amazed at the range and the quality of work bestowed on David Henesy. As the supernatural became the focus of the series, David--like Vicki--was relegated to the status of perpetual victim: always possessed, never believed. With the exception of his turn as Count Petofi in 1897, the poor kid didn't have much to do except pouting and fretting. But in 1966...man! If his character wasn't a total psychopath, little David defintely qualified for conduct disorder. I was amazed not only at how believable and how breathtaking Henesy was in the role, but also at the extent to which daytime writers in 1966 were taking his character. Here was a child who wanted to murder his father and nearly everyone else around him. At one point, he even aims a toy gun at the camera (and the viewing audience). However, he had his gentle side too; I particularly loved the warm relationship between Burke and David in those early days. (And I agree with you, Devlin: Mitchell Ryan was the better Burke Devlin.) The chemistry between Henesy and Anthony George was not at all the same as it was between him and Ryan.
If you're watching episode 30 now, then you haven't seen Laura Collins yet. Her story line is probably my favorite. The original Phoenix plot was wonderfully atmospheric, mysterious, but with just the right blend of mundane domestic discord thrown in for balance.
On the whole, the pre-Barnabas episodes are fun, although they represent quite a different animal from the DS that most of us know.
ProfStokes
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I absolutely adore 1966. I love the really early months when Burke will stop at nothing to get back at the Collins family and Vicki is shrewd enough to question even Liz's motives (they get some wonderful scenes together, some of which are still ahead of you). I love the 1966 Roger--Edmonds brought some wonderfully subtle shadings to the unfolding of Roger's depravity, and as Prof Stokes wrote, David is simply extraordinary to watch. Some of this stuff is up there with the best of Twilight Zone in terms of storytelling that 's focused on some of the more unpleasant quirks of human emotional neurosis.
My favorite scenes of all are the big showdowns between Liz and Burke. I thought Bennett did an amazing job with those scenes. Sheer regal authority.
The Liz/Roger scenes are sheer delicious fun. It's a lot of fun watching these two being so icy and disdainful and sometimes struggling to out-manipulate one another. Of course, Liz almost invariably wins, but the outcome always has this edge to it.
It's almost unbelievable that somebody held onto the complete set of master tapes for these months, given that they seem never to have been considered for WorldVision syndication until Sci Fi's initial airing ca. 1992.
G.
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ProfStokes said it best for me.
I remember a few years ago when pre-Barn was on; it seemed to drag.
But...I love the atmosphere; Carolyn's spoiled brat is great (especially in connection with her dynamic range).
Perhaps TPTB could've tapped more into the Collinsport workers within subsequent stories.
And, like most everyone on these boards.....Maggie... Pre-victimized/pre-Josette wannabe...gum cracking, wise-cracking Maaaaaggggiiieeeee :-*
Devlin, I don't know if you've ever seen the upcoming Phoenix story, but, it's phenomenal.
Welcome :)
Patti
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I like the way they incorporate live footage into the episodes.
It really has a "Maine" feel to it in these episodes.
DS should have held on to some "reality" to it in the post 1795 episodes.
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Hi all, first time poster here.
I have only seen a few of the pre-Barnabas shows. I agree with those who said they were very atmospheric. They also seem to be more typically soap opera, since they weren't so focused on the supernatural. But unlike most soap operas, which seem to be plot driven, the shows I saw were character driven.
Hopefully, somebody other than the Sci-Fi channel will re-broadcast these episodes. Or maybe they will eventually come out on DVD. I for one would really like to see all of them.
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hey gang....its great to see the feedback on 1966---the one character who i had changed my views on since i watched it originally way back as an 11 year old in 1966 was David....since he was so young like me back then, I always thought he was an innocent victim of Rogers hatred ( at this point i have my doubts that roger is his real dad)...but watching it 37 years later as an old man of 48 i feel like roger or vik should turn the little rascal over their knee and give him a good spanking......so its interesting to me taking both my kids eye view from when i saw this episode way back when and to now........
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i absolutely love the 1966 episodes!they're some of my favorites.carolyn is so petulant,liz is so grand,david such a menace(remember him writing "death" on vicki's mirror),maggie such a wisecracking waitress,burke such vengeful bad-ass,vicki so sassy and inquisitive.it had a sleepy "twin peaks" quality,a small town full of secrets.the laura collins story is the best!i like that it's just one supernatural character up against normal human beings.that's what made the early barnabas eps. so good too.when it becomes a show with an endless line-up of monsters it loses most of it's charm.i wish post 1795 the show retained some of these real qualities too.it seems like the producers felt they needed to keep upping the ante to keep viewers interested,but that was a short-sited plan because the show became ridiculous and viewers lost interest.if the show stayed a bit more reality-based it might have lasted longer:some soap operas have been on for 40 years. :P
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Fortunately for me I saw the pre-Barnabas Dark Shadows episodes first. Very few parts of it were dull for me.
I loved the whole Phoenix storyline! The acting throughout was top notch. I thought the interaction between Burke, Roger, Laura & Liz was excellent.
Words just can't convey the magnificent job that David Henesey did as the 'little monster' practically driving Vicki bonkers and Roger over the edge. Even the Paul Malloy build up to Laura the Phoenix storyline was good IMO.
As you say, thank god that someone saved the master tapes for these episodes!
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from mscbryk
When it becomes a show with an endless line-up of monsters it loses much of its' charm.
IMO the writers went overboard with this aspect of the show. I am a fan of the early episodes with its' gothic/mystery tone. Vicky's search for her past, Bill Malloy's murder, the Phoenix and Barnabas' arrival are great storylines. I watch some of these eps over and over. I agree that these shows were more like a typical soap opera and were more slow-moving.[/color][coolg]
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the scene where david and ms. winters are fighting over the bleeder valve.......grab---swat-----push-----great!!!!. I was howling for ms. winters to reach over and whack that little monster......a far cry from when i last saw that episode back in 66---i was rooting for david to knock vik on her dumper........kids rooting for kids back then..lol it was great being 11 and watching that show over my grandmothers objection cause she wanted to see edge of night...ha ha ha
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Wasn't Edge of Night on after DS?
(Both on ABC.)
Patti
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this topic got me thinking about 1966 d.s..it seems like a show that wasn't allowed to come into fruition.the mystery of victoria's birth.why elizabeth hired her.elizabeth's own secrets.burke's vendetta with the collins family.the carolyn/joe/maggie triangle.burke and vicki's romance.all of these plots were either hastily wrapped-up or abandoned entirely when barnabas arrived.he was supposed to be quickly killed-off but ended up stealing the show and it evolved into something else entirely.but even without barnabas,the early eps. had to have been more interesting than most daytime t.v. c.66/67.does anyone think that the show could have been good if allowed to continue on it's original path,and the vampire show it eventually became been a seperate show altogether? :P
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it might of been search for tomorrow.....it was one that was on cbs opposite......wish grandma was still around, she could tell me.......anyone know what soap was on cbs opposite DS?......
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yes mscbryk, u make a valid point......after all these years i have drawn many scenario conclusions about many of the plot twists that were suddenly dropped or written out when barnabas appeared. heres my resolution on a few of the hangers.......david was the illegitimate child of burke and laura-------vik was a product of Liz-and somebody......maybe even jason-------haskell had his fill of both carolines tantrums and maggies being kidnapped etc....i do think the barnabas period on could of been a separate plate.....all together the show outclassed anything else being shown at the time with or without barnabas..........
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I love the first year of DS just as much as the years with Jonathan Frid -- maybe even a bit more.
All the storylines were good, IMO -- the only problem I had with the stories was the fact that I felt they focused on the Burke Devlin/Roger Collins storyline a bit too much in the first few months of the show. The Laura/Phoenix storyline is one of the best of the entire show.
The characterizations and acting are great. Elizabeth, Roger, Carolyn, David, Maggie, and Vicki (and just about everyone else) are at their best here. One thing I dislike about the later years is the fact that these characters were watered down by future writing regimes. I wouldn't have minded it so much if it were a gradual change as the characters evolved, but it seemed to happen very suddenly.
The pre-Barnabas episodes are much more character driven than the later ones. I also love how it explored the relationships between the characters -- for instance, Elizabeth/Carolyn, Carolyn/Roger, Roger/David, Elizabeth/Roger, Burke/Roger, Maggie/Sam, etc.
I like the fact that there was only a hint of the supernatural. One of the major problems I have with some of the later storylines (in particular, the period with Adam and the Leviathan storyline) was the fact that there seemed to be way too many supernatural creatures running around Collinsport.
it might of been search for tomorrow.....it was one that was on cbs opposite......wish grandma was still around, she could tell me.......anyone know what soap was on cbs opposite DS?......
When DS premiered in 1966, it aired against CBS' The Secret Storm at 4:00PM. When the show switched to the 3:30PM time slot in April 1967, it began airing against The Edge of Night on CBS. In July 1968, the show returned to 4:00PM. At the time, CBS was airing The Art Linkletter Show against it. Later, reruns of Gomer Pyle, USMC began airing in the slot in 1969.
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I watched the earliest episodes when they first aired, which was quite an accomplishment for a nine-year-old to do, especially considering that there really wasn't anything "spooky" for the first few months (other than the intimating about ghosts and such in true gothic fashion). But the eerie music and the cobwebs had my interest going. I didn't see every episode; our local affiliate originally aired it in the morning, at eleven o'clock, so it must've done the delayed broadcast thing until it eventually switched it to the regular afternoon airing. The whole David-trying-to-snuff-his-old-man thing intrigued me. I would "play" that story, using one of those old hotel-room key tabs which use to have the "Drop-In-Any-Mailbox" words engraved on them as the substitute for the thingamajobber that wicked David took out of his pop's car in order to make it crash. I'd hide in the bushes, on top of the clothes-line stand, anywhere, and then have "Vicki" try to find it. But, of course, I use to play Will Robinson, too; that must've been a real boring summer.
Gerard
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I have only seen the pre Barnabas episodes once, it was the last time they aired on the Sci-Fi channel.
I have mixed feelings about the episodes. IMO they were way too slow moving for my tastes. I'll have to watch those episodes again. Dark Shadows is the only Soap Opera that I've ever gotten into. I have always believed that the show is more exciting when Barnabas is on. I began watching the show in '68 at the age of 8.
As an adult I like more character driven shows and I especially enjoyed the dynamics between Joan Bennett and Louis Edmonds in the early episodes. I too believe the writers got carried away with ridiculous plots after Barnabas arrived that probably hurt it's chances of becoming a longer running soap. Dark Shadows, I believe had more children watching it than other soaps at the time and children do not have the attention spans of an adult and I'm sure the writers knew that.
I see a lot of you really liked the Phoenix storyline and I didn't at all. I'll have to watch that one again.
Murph
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The pre-Barns are my favorite, hands down. (With episode one being my all-time fave.) Liz, Roger, and Vicki and their interactions with the other characters are my favorite aspect of these earlier episodes. Of course along with every other good thing said about them in this thread.
I first saw these episodes about ten years ago on home video. I don't think I would have the same opinion (then, as I do now) had I seen them when they first aired. Back then I was more than happy with the show turned out.
The pre-Barns seem to be more about discovering and investigating secrets (that we weren't in on). And I realy like that aspect of it, along with the nostalgia of B&W which is a large part of the appeal for me as well.
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regarding 1966- does anyone know what prompted the change in Sam Evans portrayal.......i sure liked the first actor.....he seemed more like the scared drunk.....but then david ford seemed more like a starving painter......so i guess we couldnt have the best of both worlds for too long.......lol........also i could never see nancy and david as a married couple.....could anyone else?---thanks to all for all the 1966 banter--------
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I'm with you regarding the Sam Evans character. I liked David Ford a lot but Marc Allen was perfect as Sam Evans. He was philosophical, kind of seedy looking and portrayed a man with too much fondness for drink. His portrayal of a man with a dark secret seemed more realistic to me.
If I'm not mistaken David Ford was in his late 30's when he was married to Nancy Barrett who I believe was 25. I think maybe as much as 15 years difference. Same as between my mom and dad. I can see Nancy Barrett being attracted to an 'older' man.
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All the characters are more vibrant when set against a more subtle supernatural background.
I feel DS always worked best in this manner. Too many warewolf/frankenstein-like monsters spoil the brew.
Anyway, I have one pre-Barnabas tape and, unfortunately, got bored. Probably, if I gave it another shot and paid more attention I might get into it...but, my opinion JF, as Barnabas, made the show. Good casting, marvelous character fit, right time and place. JF is mega talented but also lucky in the role. The rest of the cast is golden like Louis E., Thayer D., most of 'em but for some reason, Jonathan Frid raised the emotional and atmospheric quality of DS to brilliance, and I guess many others felt that way too given the success of DS after he arrived.
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I can understand why they had to recast Matthew Morgan as they needed an actor to look menacing. But does anyone know why they replaced Mark Allen with David Ford?
They actually shot live footage with both actors as Sam Evans.
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dom, i'm with you on ep.1 being my fave.i like early barnabas and i love julia but the pre-barns are kind of my favorites.it's funny that they filmed live footage with both actors who portrayed sam evans.it seems like alot of expense for a relatively minor character.i prefer david ford over the other actor and a personal favorite is a scene he has with diana millay during the laura story.she is such a menace!i met her at the fest last year and bought her silly book about halloween,she's too much!
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hey gang......does anyone recall the 1st season gaff where mitch ryan as burke goes blank on one of his lines and just tells another one of the characters to take it from there......as he walks off the set.......i think it is at the cannery and some character named amos is left to recite ryans line........i am going over the vhs versions from mpi, and i cant seem to locate it.......any help would be appreciated.......btw.....vid caps and wav files from season one are posted on yahoo groups/ds......for all to share
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hey gang......does anyone recall the 1st season gaff where mitch ryan as burke goes blank on one of his lines and just tells another one of the characters to take it from there......as he walks off the set.......i think it is at the cannery and some character named amos is left to recite ryans line........i am going over the vhs versions from mpi, and i cant seem to locate it.......any help would be appreciated.......btw.....vid caps and wav files from season one are posted on yahoo groups/ds......for all to share
Was that the scene with Dolph Sweet, the guy from Gimmee A Break?
Gerard
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I liked David Ford a lot but Marc Allen was perfect as Sam Evans
Being a painter myself, and Maine born (Presque-Ise) and having gone one year to the Portland School of Art, I always related to Sam Evans and Maggie because I knew what it was like to live in a run-down (albeit probably very expensive ocean-front shack) anyhow, as a semi-starving artist in Maine. I never saw the original Sam but David Ford was real cool in the role. I love his dangling cigarette and hanging out at the local pub (very artist painter like). I especially appreciate his performances in comparison to what I felt, were very bad and lazy performances as Josette's father. His eyes were mostly glued to the teleprompt. I read somewhere he had problems remembering his lines and no-where is that more apparent.
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I especially appreciate his performances in comparison to what I felt, were very bad and lazy performances as Josette's father. His eyes were mostly glued to the teleprompt. I read somewhere he had problems remembering his lines and no-where is that more apparent.
Thats probably why they wrote Andre out of 1795 after only one month.
It appeared that David Ford had left DS at that point. I was surprised to see his return in 1968 a few months later as Sam Evans. Perhaps it would have been better to recast him again.
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i actually felt sorry for him after being struck blind for not giving angelique the painting......at least when he was squinting at the prompt.......and declaring he was blind.........it looked real.....lol
r.i.p. david ford
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andre dupre's just vanished from 1795.he didn't even return for josette's funeral.it's strange he would leave collinsport at a time when his daughter was in great distress.in general they did odd things with some of the characters on the show.it must have been frustrating for contracted players to sit around and wait to see when they'de be used.
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hey gang......does anyone recall the 1st season gaff where mitch ryan as burke goes blank on one of his lines and just tells another one of the characters to take it from there......as he walks off the set.......i think it is at the cannery and some character named amos is left to recite ryans line........i am going over the vhs versions from mpi, and i cant seem to locate it.......any help would be appreciated.......btw.....vid caps and wav files from season one are posted on yahoo groups/ds......for all to share
I think it took place in his hotel room. Several of the workers were there for a meeting. That might have been the time he was trying to lure them away from the Collins cannery.
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thanks for the update Josette------i am surprised that scene at the hotel regarding the cannery isnt on the bloopers tape..........something fishy going on?
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Maybe one of the reasons why it didn't make it to the bloopers tape (if our collective memories are serving correctly about what happened) is that the other actors in the scene undoubtedly knew what was happening and carried it on their own, having to try and improvise and ad-lib until back on cue. Ironically, there are a few very obvious bloopers that, going into we've-got-no-choice-but-to-go-with-the-flow mode, actually made it more realistic. One was when Elizabeth was on the phone after receiving news of Burke's plane going down in South America, and she momentarily couldn't remember the name of the city of Belem. She was playing the scene with great embellishment of being nearly hysterical, and just incorporated her temporary memory loss into it, clicking her fingers, ad-libbing: "Oh, what's the name of that city in Brazil?..........Belem!" It's just how someone would react when under a great deal of pressure. And, of course, there are all the Roger bloopers where he ad-libbed a follow-up to a misspoken line.
Gerard
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I was surprised to see his return in 1968 a few months later as Sam Evans. Perhaps it would have been better to recast him again.
Yeau, what happened there? Maybe he was under stress or something because he certainly seemed distracted in 1795. He did convince me of Sam Evans though and I found him likeable so I would have hated to see him replaced. I especialy thought he was VERY good in the initial Barnabas/Maggie vampire stuff.
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It could have had something to do with the 'five characters per episode' unwritten rule of production cost that kept him from appearing more often. Perhaps his character was the least important to the plot during this time period, hence his 'non-use'. Just a (non-educated) guess on my part. ;D
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Okay...somebody please post pics of both Sams Evans' side by side...I can't remember....
Thanks,
Patti
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Okay...somebody please post pics of both Sams Evans' side by side...I can't remember....
Regarding the original Sam, Dom posted this back in March:
New DS Format
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I have mixed feelings about the episodes. IMO they were way too slow moving for my tastes. I'll have to watch those episodes again. Dark Shadows is the only Soap Opera that I've ever gotten into. I have always believed that the show is more exciting when Barnabas is on. I began watching the show in '68 at the age of 8.
As an adult I like more character driven shows and I especially enjoyed the dynamics between Joan Bennett and Louis Edmonds in the early episodes. I too believe the writers got carried away with ridiculous plots after Barnabas arrived that probably hurt it's chances of becoming a longer running soap. Dark Shadows, I believe had more children watching it than other soaps at the time and children do not have the attention spans of an adult and I'm sure the writers knew that.
I see a lot of you really liked the Phoenix storyline and I didn't at all. I'll have to watch that one again.
I'm looking at this thread for the first time now and felt compelled to comment on Murph's because nearly every line in it could have been written by me. :D
I do like the way the early episodes of the show developed the characters more, but I agree they were quite slow moving. I've never watched any other soap -- I've tried but haven't been able to stomach more than a handful of episodes of any of them. :P DS does capture and hold my interest though, from the very first episode; I guess it's the whole Gothic atmostphere that makes it unique right from the start.
The development of the supernatural aspects made the show far more interesting, and Frid as Barnabas really "made" the show.
I would encourage Murph to try the Phoenix story line again. I had never seen that as a child (was probably pre-school) but saw it for the first time as an adult a few years ago when I got cable for the first time upon learning that DS would be re-airing on SciFi. They started with the Phoenix storyline, and I was entranced -- even spooked by it, as I would watch my tape of the day's episodes in bed just before falling asleep ...
Patti wrote:
Okay...somebody please post pics of both Sams Evans' side by side...I can't remember....
LOL, I couldn't remember either. Thanks, Midnite, for directing us to Dom's earlier post. The photos help clarify what everyone's talking about in this thread. I'd been confused in the past by comments that David Ford couldn't remember his lines and even statements to the effect that his character was made blind so that he could read his lines through sunglasses. That seems a little far-fetched to me, and it seems puzzling that he would suddenly have developed some sort of amnesia with respect to his lines at this point during the show. Yet I believe KLS has remarked that Ford couldn't remember his lines and maybe she was even the source of the story that that's why they decided to make the character blind. (I think KLS sometimes spins a good yarn ... :) )
Very strange. Did Ford go on to success in other acting roles?
I suppose it could have been a temporary problem he had, like Mitch Ryan did before being canned after previous good work on the show.
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Very strange. Did Ford go on to success in other acting roles?
Ford played John Hancock in 1776 on Broadway and film. Presumably, it was the fast pace and few rehearsals for which DS was famous that proved to be so challenging.
ProfStokes
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I think David Fords forte was commercial voiceovers for radio and tv......with a script in front of him of course.....
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I can't believe I haven't thought of this until this a.m. in the shower...but, a big highlight of 1966 is
DR. GUTHRIE!!
[/b]
IMHO, he was terrific!!
Patti
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David Ford's marriage with Nancy Barrett was on the rocks in 1967-68. I believe this has been discussed in public sources, but if this is an infringement on the Board regs of not discussing the actors personal lives, hope the Mods will delete this post.
I think Ford had another acting gig in 1968 which is why he suddenly disappeared as Andre. A lot of the DS actors appear to have worked under verbal agreements rather than written contracts--a situation that is unimaginable in today's world.
Anyway, I always thought the personal dynamics of him and Nancy needing not to be working together on the same show were responsible for his appearances and disappearances, and eventually to his leaving altogether.
A fan who knew the people involved claimed that Nancy herself was going to leave at one point in '68, but Grayson talked her out of it one night over dinner.
G.
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David Ford played a character on "Search for Tomorrow" from 1972-1973 named Karl Devlin, who slowly went insane.
I remember DF (in retrospect) as the announcer in a commercial for Time Magazine back in the 70's. Even now I can hear his voice in that commercial.
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I enjoyed the pre-Barnabas episodes and credit their establishing the appeal of characters like Vicki, Elizabeth, Carolyn, David and Roger . By the time Barnabas arrived, we could suspend our disbelief of the vampire gimmick, as we had grown to care about the human characters, and were intrigued by how this "cousin from England" would interplay in their Gothic world. Perhaps if the series started out with the supernatural, audiences wouldn't have bought it, because we'd have been preoccupied with the premise, rather than have the leisure to focus on the dysfunctional Collins family, as individuals, whom we grew to know and love in 1966.
I just found a December 1966 TV Guide that shows DARK SHADOWS on at 10:30AM! Its competition was CONCENTRATION game show, the JOHNNY GILBERT Variety Show, reruns of BEVERLY HILLBILLIES or BACHELOR FATHER, and ROMPER ROOM! Ah, the 60's!
As for David Ford (Sam Evans), he popped up on SEARCH FOR TOMORROW in 1973, playing a psychotic, murdering magazine editor named Carl Devlin. See what happens to people who leave Collinwood??!!
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For many years, it was believed that when Sam Evans comes to Collinwood for the first time in the 1966 episodes, Joan Bennett says "Welcome to Hollywood!" instead of "Welcome to Collinwood".
Upon viewing these episodes that has proven to be false.
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Thanks for the early picture of Mark Allen. May I ask where you got it from? I do remember George Mitchell especially as the Pepperidge Farm man in commercials.
There was also a blooper audio of Mitch Ryan walking into a room, throwing his keys on the table and announcing that he had to take a leak. Naturally, being easily amused, I laughed my rear off on that one. ;D
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A fan who knew the people involved claimed that Nancy herself was going to leave at one point in '68, but Grayson talked her out of it one night over dinner.
[size=10]AAAAAHHHHH!!!!![/size]
Just another reason to love, love, love Grayson :-* :-*
Patti
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One thing I much preferred about the first season was how much more "normal" things appeared via sets and scenes. Of course, this was before the supposed "five-a-day" limit on the number of actors and actresses. At the Blue Whale, the place was always filled with customers, including the classic scene in, I believe, the second episode of Carolyn dancing wildly on the floor, other hot cats and chicks packing the space and doing the monkey while the juke box rattled out drums and electric guitars. Later, when some business had to be transacted between main characters at the pub, you were lucky if you got to see the bartender and maybe one extra customer. How did the place stay open?
And then there were the scenes (usually involving Vicki with Frank or Burke) in a restaurant in Bangor. The set was highly detailed, all the tables filled with diners engaged in eating and carrying on off-microphone conversations, waiters moving to and fro. Even the Collinsport Diner always had an ample amount of people enjoying their burgers or blue-plate specials. Later, it would just be Maggie, pondering how she would be able to buy the newest Petula Clarke record album from the lack of tips.
And don't forget the marvelous set of the Collinwood kitchen, where we'd find family members having breakfast, or Mrs. Johnson taking a coffee-and-cigarette break and - absolutely marvelous! - Carolyn busy at an ironing board.
Then, as monsters proliferated, the sets and background folk vanished. The sense of the bizarre, mysterious and macabre amidst normalcy was gone. To me, something was lost from that very first season.
Gerard
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I'm absolutely in agreement with Gerard. The portrayal of conventional reality in the show made the bizarre aspects of the story all the more effective. Such a shame that this element diminished so drastically over the years.
--M
http://home.triad.rr.com/smrainey
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Then, as monsters proliferated, the sets and background folk vanished. The sense of the bizarre, mysterious and macabre amidst normalcy was gone. To me, something was lost from that very first season.
I have a sense of what you're saying even though I never watched most of the pre-Barnabas shows. But there was a gradual change even from when he first appeared up to the dream-curse series. I, too, prefer "the sense of the bizarre" admidst normalcy but feel this still could have been accomplished with Barnabas and even Angelique.
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One thing I much preferred about the first season was how much more "normal" things appeared via sets and scenes.
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Then, as monsters proliferated, the sets and background folk vanished. The sense of the bizarre, mysterious and macabre amidst normalcy was gone. To me, something was lost from that very first season.
I agree that the earlier part of the series was much more grounded in reality. It was so fascinating to see those early kitchen scenes -- and especially the location footage in the town and at Seaview Terrace.
On the other hand, one could make the argument that as the show became more fantastic in plot, the settings and surroundings became attuned to that, becoming more abstract and removed from reality.
Hitchcock's films are sometimes criticized for their sometimes "fakey" aspects -- rear-projection, silkscreen or matte backgrounds (not sure of my terminology here), even in such late films as "Marnie." Others argue that Hitchcock deliberately wanted to set certain scenes against a slightly unreal, perhaps expressionist, background. One might say the same of Dark Shadows ...
Even in some contemporary, art-house type films (usually European) the artistic vision of the director is one of stylized sets and unreality -- just off the top of my head, I can think of "Edward II" (Derek Jarman), "Querelle" (Fassbinder), "Suspiria" and "Inferno" (Argento) ...
It's interesting because I've seen customers/viewers reviews criticize the "cheapness" or "fakiness" of some of these films, where actually the look of the film -- the removal from the mundane and ordinary -- is deliberate.
Whether the artistic vision in the case of DS was deliberate or a matter of economics, it's clear that the end result has a distinct effect on the viewer ... and we're certainly forever tied to the visual and visceral effect we've received whenever we think of the show.
(OT - It could be fun to think of contemporary movies that were shot entirely on soundstages, no location shooting, and how that creates an imaginary world -- Victor/Victoria, Sleepy Hollow (which I haven't seen -- did the recent Moulin Rouge do this?) etc. ... )
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When Stephen King first came on the scene, one of the things most remarked about his stories was his use of everyday pop culture references. The names of TV shows and movies.......the titles of recent books.......the names of real towns......and recent current events.
Up until then, if a book opened in a derelict castle, you KNEW it was a horror story.....but if it opened in a hardware store on a busy Saturday morning, with people buying Miracle-gro and joint compound, you weren't expecting Hell to show up momentarily.
I think King's way works better......and I think DS lost something when it gave up even the appearance of normality. But if the economic alternative was to shut down the production altogether, then I'm glad they stayed on the air, albeit with a very small number of performers.
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Once the show returned to the present from 1795, they seemed to have lost the reality part of it altogether.
I think the last time we saw a live sequence (though stock footage) was after Adam jumped off Widows Hill and we see the waves footage while Langs tape message plays. That was like a last hint of realism.
They did a good background in 1795 when barnabas is after Jeremiah and Josette with the road to Collinsport. They used a large photo of the woods in the background.
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IMO, and i have seen the series back and forth all the way through.....if one really wants to see what makes Roger, Liz, and to a large extent Carolyn also tick, you have to watch the collectors series-i.e. pre barnabas......i feel like some of the prior posters that due to plot incentives for viewership numbers that each of those above mentioned characters loses some identity, whether it was from the fact we would go weeks without seeing Roger, or Liz being buried alive, or Carolyn trying to care for Adam...etc.....i appreciate MPI for having the foresite to release all the early eps just for that reason.......to truly appreciate those early characters and really seeing gothic drama at its best......still unequalled over all these years. 8)
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the last time i remember seeing the diner set was shortly after maggie was first bitten by barnabas.does the diner set ever appear in the color eps. or did it disappear? btw,the ep.2 scene iof carolyn gyrating at the blue whale is priceless.
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When Stephen King first came on the scene, one of the things most remarked about his stories was his use of everyday pop culture references. The names of TV shows and movies.......the titles of recent books.......the names of real towns......and recent current events.
Up until then, if a book opened in a derelict castle, you KNEW it was a horror story.....but if it opened in a hardware store on a busy Saturday morning, with people buying Miracle-gro and joint compound, you weren't expecting Hell to show up momentarily.
I think King's way works better......and I think DS lost something when it gave up even the appearance of normality. But if the economic alternative was to shut down the production altogether, then I'm glad they stayed on the air, albeit with a very small number of performers.
That's one of the reasons why I enjoyed the Parallel Time 1970 story - because it had elements of normalcy in it that fell away from Normal Time stories after the first season. They were just hints, but they were there, such as seeing Quentin and Maggie in their New York City hotel suite upon their return from their extensive honeymoon. Alexis making reference to sailing across the Atlantic in friends' private, posh yacht from Genoa to New York City; seeing the Loomis House (aka the Old House) with more contemporary furnishings and - egads! - electric lights! And - the "normal" capper of them all - Buffy's apartment with a...a...television set! I can just imagine that the last thing she watched on it before being done in by madman monster John Yaeger was The Brady Bunch (although in PT, Jan was the popular one and Marcia the jealous, second-rate sister) They were all small, subtle touches of the everyday, but to me they added a sense of the here-and-now, of regular life, waiting - as in Stephen King novels - for the other shoe to drop.
Gerard
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On the other hand, one could make the argument that as the show became more fantastic in plot, the settings and surroundings became attuned to that, becoming more abstract and removed from reality.
Was the above a conscious decision or simply due to ...perhaps budget constraints such as higher salaries etc. Though I read salaries were low throughout. In any case, in the early years after-Barnabas, DS managed some highly interesting concepts and situations within, and I agree, abstract minimalist settings that gave the show it's distinctive and probably never to be copied, poetic dark gothic claustophobia. I keep thinking of scenes within the Collins' family cript as examples (i.e Barnabas and Ben, Naomi and Joshua). All great BUT I wonder if this was the reason DS eventually went off the air because honestly, that kind of creative output and artistic consciousness (if that were the case) is too hard to sustain year after year. Even though I hear DS was originally going to be cancelled I wonder IF they had kept the original "soap opera" tone the show might have lasted longer (with some modifications) and might have been easier to manage.
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The 1966 eps are my alltime favorite. I loved the quirky New England flavor that imbued the show. I loved the writing, the acting, the character development. There was so much more depth to the show then. I agree that some of the plotting was way too slow, but watching the nuanced performances of some really excellent actors, I often don't care anymore.
What always strikes me is that if they'd kept that depth going when they'd brought in the supernatural plots in a big way, the show could have gone on to be something even better than what it was.
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Does anyone know why Sam was recast so soon in the series?.......i thought the other chap was doing a fine job....and seemed to fit the bill as troubled, starving artist with a drinking problem.
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Interesting that you mention Stephen King's use of up-to-date brand names and such in his horrors (I have always found King unreadable--deadly dull stuff). One of the most jarring aspects of the TNWBDS treatment that was briefly available on the Barnabas Undead site, to me, was the use of jokes about Keno, IHOP and other 2004 commonplaces. Guess the writer (have we been told just who wrote it?) is a King fan.
I've never heard why the roles of Sam Evans and Matthew Morgan were re-cast. It may have been that the actors, again, were working without a contract and found other work. No idea. I still prefer Thayer David as Matthew to the original actor. I liked that actor in the original concept of Matthew but don't think he would have gone off the deep end so terrifyingly as our Thayer did. Plus I'm damned loyal to Thayer David--God I love that guy!
Sentimental Gothick
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andre dupre's just vanished from 1795.he didn't even return for josette's funeral.it's strange he would leave collinsport at a time when his daughter was in great distress.in general they did odd things with some of the characters on the show.it must have been frustrating for contracted players to sit around and wait to see when they'de be used.
I am sure it was frustrating. Does anyone know what were the usual "rules" regarding contracted actors? After Andre disappeared from the 1795 story, it was more than 100 eps before David Ford appeared again. And when he did reappear, it was only to serve the Adam/Frankenstien plot where the poor pitiful creature (in both stories) befriends a blind man who cannot see him for what he really is. Not long after that they kill him off. It was as if they just couldn't think of anything else to do with the character.
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yes, david ford/sam evans was not treated fairly once the show went supernatural.i also think clarice blackburn/mrs.johnson went highly underused as well. :(
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I tried to post yesterday and download a photo I have discovered that may have been of Mark Allen. He was in How the West Was Won back in 1962 I believe. I'm not able to download it because it's too large.
All this discussion about 1966 pre-Barnabas has got me interested in viewing the old tapes again. The more I see of Mark Allen, the more I think he was perfect as Sam Evans. That fly-away, disheveled hair, the philosophical meanderings and trailing off of his conversations really evoked the image of a man who in addition to having plenty to hide, dealt with an almost overwhelming sense of despair. His desperation to protect himself was so apparent trying to deal with Burke and Roger.
Don't know if anyone else has noticed but I don't think he wore a different set of clothes for all of his episodes than those he had in his original episode. I do have an eye for detail and did notice that he even has a safety pin on his shirt where a button should have been. They were some great scenes between Burke & Sam & Roger. I liked David Ford but if I'd had my way, I would have kept Mark Allen in to play Sam.
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I'm not able to download it because it's too large.
You'll need to resize it first using graphics software. There's usually an option under "Edit" or "Image", depending on the software you have. After you resize it, select File/"Save as" so that you don't lose the original image. Keep in mind that the image at 100% on your screen is how it's going to look on the forums.
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Tahnks Midnite: one of the other posters is trying to help me with my download. I emailed that person the file. I appreciate your offer to help. ;D
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Yay!! I finally found it!! :D ProfStokes told me in a chat several weeks ago that this discussion was here!! 8)
After DS was taken off Sci-Fi, I bought the tapes for the final episodes so I could see how it ended. Then I decided to buy the first 10 video tapes - and then 10 more - so now I have the first 20 tapes (100 Episodes). I have just seen Episode #61.
I have NEVER seen the pre-Barnabas episodes before watching these tapes. I must say, it was a VERY DIFFERENT show then. It was like a "regular soap opera" then. The pace was much slower, and there was much character development. 8)
David was a spoiled brat then!! :( He was a mean little kid - much different from what I remember. Also, Roger and "Liz" had much larger roles and the show revolved around them. (I always considered her to be Elizabeth - and was surprised that she was called Liz then.) It sure was a shame that Bill Malloy was killed. :(
I really like Burke Devlin. :D It is great to see a "young" Mitch Ryan. He was (and still is) a very handsome man. I also like Sam Evans - especially David Ford's version. It was WEIRD to see Sam Evans #1 - another actor playing the role.
I think the most surprising thing about watching these early episodes is that I find myself more interested in the "adults" on the show. When I originally watched DS, I really identified with David and Amy, since I was a child, too. Now that I am an adult, I am watching it from an adult's point of view. I actually find Mitch Ryan and David Ford quite attractive - I really like them!! 8) They actually were YOUNGER then than I am now. I used to think of the adults on DS as being OLD - but now I don't, and I can see how David was such a brat now. >:(
Oh, by the way - Burke - I hope you read this. You and I must be the same age!! I was 11 in 1966, too!!! 8) My birthdate is 5/9/55 - when is yours?? ??? Are you "older or younger" than me?? ???
Well, that's enough for now.
8) ~~~ Long Live The Original Dark Shadows!! ~~~ 8)
----- Sally (EmeraldRose) -----
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(waaah!...didn't anybody love Dr. Guthrie? waah!)
Patti
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yes, david ford/sam evans was not treated fairly once the show went supernatural.i also think clarice blackburn/mrs.johnson went highly underused as well.
well, David Ford's acting got progressively worse as the show went on. I liked him very much as the earlier Sam Evans and even liked him as Mr. Duprey but by then his constant stalling with "errrs...and ums..." between lines became distracting. I read somewhere that by the dream-curse story he barely remembered his lines at all. Clarice Blackbrun, however, was brilliant and a hoot as Abigail Collins. I hear she left and became a soap opera writer. I thought she was a very good actress and her initial scene with Barnabas as Mrs. Johnson was classic, especially her tierd waddle as she climbed the stairs to get Mrs. Stoddard. I wonder if JF realized just how good Clarice B. was because on his website he talks about Barnabas' first encounter with J. Bennett but ignores what, I feel, was a much more interesting scene just before with CB. Maybe its because JB was famous.
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andre dupres was not an essential character in 1795.i get the impression that they wanted to include everyone from the present so you could see the "shock" on vicki's face when she encountered them for the first time.i think i said in an earlier post that the scene between abigail and barnabas when she discovers him rising from his coffin is great in part because of ms.blackburn's acting.i liked both her and ford during the 1966 laura story, he has 1 or 2 priceless scenes with diana millay.
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(waaah!...didn't anybody love Dr. Guthrie? waah!)
[spoiler]Yes Patti, I really liked Dr. Guthrie a lot and when he died, I actually cried. I know it's silly, but there was something about his character that got to me.[/spoiler]
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As I mentioned before, Patti and Miss_Winthrop, I am only on Episode #62 - BEFORE Dr. Guthrie was on DS. So I NEVER SAW the episodes he was in yet. Against my better judgement, I read the "Spoiler Text" that Miss_Winthrop wrote - but that's ok. Now I know NOT to read it if I don't want to know about something happening before I see it.
In a way, I'm kinda glad that DS isn't on network tv right now. I am happy to watch my tapes. I STILL haven't watched another episode yet. I don't have time to watch DS every day. I have to work, watch other shows on tv, be on this computer, and basically HAVE A LIFE - so I don't watch every day.
Don't get me wrong - I would LOVE to watch DS again on network tv. But it's ok if I have to wait longer. I am in control of when I watch when I watch my tapes.
----- Sally -----
:) ;) :D ;D :o :-* 8)
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Sally, the one thing you're missing though; at the end of each days eps, some of us ::) would log on here right away to talk about eps...bloopers, faux-pas.
Or just mention how someone looked or (mis)behaved.
The 'real-timeness' of it is something I really, really miss. :'(
And as you watch each ep, just because not all of us are watching them, we want to hear what you think about particular eps.!!
Have a great 4th,
Patti
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OK, Patti, I WILL post here after watching an episode of my tapes!! Happy 4th to you, too!! :D 8)
----- Sally -----
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They should have had Dr. Guthre continue on DS, he would have been perfect for the Barnabas storyline. DS did not have another character like him until Prof. Stokes arrived almost a year later.
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dr. guthrie was good.his cat and mouse with laura especially.did anyone notice that the footage of dr. guthrie driving his car to the seance and it's subsequent crash was the same footage used when david caused roger's car to crash?you can even see bits of roger driving the car. ::)
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you can even see bits of roger driving the car. ::)
ewww
;D
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Oh dear Lord! Bits of Roger driving the car. ;D
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speaking of Roger, does anyone know in what episode he finally loses that gawd awful frankenstein scar on his noggin from the bleeder valve wreck.....i am at episode 55 and he still has it......i could drive a golf cart thru that thing!!!! ::)
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silly-dillys....i didn't mean literal "bits" of roger driving the car but small shots of roger behind the wheel.btw, the exterior shots of the car driving down the road was also used when [spoiler]matthew morgan tried to run vicki down.[/spoiler]i guess film was expensive.[spoiler]but my all-time fave d.s. car crash is still the one where vicki and barnabas almost run peter bradford down and vicki becomes so "hystericle" she crashes the car.[/spoiler]it's cinematic genius. ::)
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Well, Burke, you don't have long to wait. I just watched Episode #62 the other day - and Roger does NOT have the scar!! I don't remember when it actually disappeared. Sometime between Episodes 55 and 62. :D
8) ----- Sally ----- 8)
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speaking of Roger, does anyone know in what episode he finally loses that gawd awful frankenstein scar on his noggin from the bleeder valve wreck.....i am at episode 55 and he still has it......i could drive a golf cart thru that thing!!!! ::)
Heh! Did you notice that the scar moves up and down a bit from ep to ep and there's a time when it even gets bigger?
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Speaking of Roger's wandering scar, did they have Botox back then? :D
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In my own crazy mind-----i realized that due to his laid back attitude regarding the bleeder valve/rogers accident, the mild mannered Constable Jonas had to clean out his desk to make way for Sheriff Patterson........wow i had forgotten how much clout the Collins had....but sure enough i remember a scene where Roger pretty much tells the Constable that in no uncertain terms he can be replaced..... :o and he was......
Regarding Dana Elcar as the gruff yet competant Sheriff Patterson......i read somewhere that he is blind from advanced diabetes......now there is a guy who has been in every kind of movie you could think.......i remember him as a mean FBI agent in that Redford/Newman film "The Sting" in 1973. Come to think of it....he never seemed to age much through the years......i think he was only in his early 40's when he played Sheriff Patterson......anyway...i hope he finds peace in the twilight of his life :)
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Devlin:
I was just reading about Dana Elcar's blindness up on IMDB.COM. It seems he went blind at a fairly young age (early 60's I think). He was born in 1927. I've just been reviewing some of his scenes with Roger, Sam and Burke. I had forgotten how funny and sharp some of the dialogue was between them.
All I can say is 'Thank You, Thank You' to DCP for having the mind to save these early episodes. They are wonderful to see again after all these years. A real treat if you will in today's TV land of unviewable programming.
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I tried to post yesterday and download a photo I have discovered that may have been of Mark Allen. He was in How the West Was Won back in 1962 I believe.
All this discussion about 1966 pre-Barnabas has got me interested in viewing the old tapes again. The more I see of Mark Allen, the more I think he was perfect as Sam Evans. That fly-away, disheveled hair, the philosophical meanderings and trailing off of his conversations really evoked the image of a man who in addition to having plenty to hide, dealt with an almost overwhelming sense of despair. His desperation to protect himself was so apparent trying to deal with Burke and Roger.
Don't know if anyone else has noticed but I don't think he wore a different set of clothes for all of his episodes than those he had in his original episode. I do have an eye for detail and did notice that he even has a safety pin on his shirt where a button should have been. They were some great scenes between Burke & Sam & Roger. I liked David Ford but if I'd had my way, I would have kept Mark Allen in to play Sam.
Here's the picture mentioned above, courtesy of Miss_Winthrop...(he's the guy in the background).
Nice detective work, Miss_Winthrop. Thanks. This is the only other picture of Mark Allen I've ever seen. What a great find!
[attachment deleted by admin]
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Can you imagine if Barnabas had encountered the Roger Collins of 1966 ? Roger would have been suspicious of him and worried if he knew anything about the manslaughter case. He would have told Liz they needed no more strangers here at Collinswood including a distant cousin LOL. Anyone else notice that they all seemed to believe in ghosts pre Barnabas but escpecially Roger became a cynic..he should have remembered the seaweed left by the ghost of Malloy :)
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I agree the Roger Collins had far fewer things on his plate after Barnabas arrived. Pre Barn was an ideal plot time for him, as he was always driven to the edge of the comfort zone by all the chaos that preceeded the opening of that box in the mausoleum. By the time Barn got there, Roger seemed to have most if not all of his skeletons out of his closet. I am thankful for 1966 because it always had Roger in some kind entanglement.......chaos......and you could always count on him to pay his daily visit to the brandy bottle over the mantlepiece 8)
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I am thankful for 1966 because it always had Roger in some kind entanglement.......chaos......and you could always count on him to pay his daily visit to the brandy bottle over the mantlepiece 8)
LOL! Ain't that the truth (a little brandy-drinking smiley would be nice right here)... ;D
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i always thought that the roger/burke rivalry was wrapped up too hastily.it was just before the barnabas introduction and it seemed as if the writers knew the show was going in a new direction and wanted to tie that plot up quickly.it was sort of anti-climactic. :-
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I look forward to watching those episodes for the first time,mscbryk, when I get to them, that is!! I'm still only on Episode #68. :D
Shadowsfan, Devlin, and Heather - I agree with your assessments about Roger. His role got much smaller when Barnabas came on the scene. ::)
---- Sally ----
8)
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With all Roger has on his mind.....its refreshing to see him on the outside footage intro of ep #68 arriving at his office......he even seems to have waved a good morning to one of the Collins Cannery Slaves.....nice guy......and what a kewl office......complete with dartboard :P
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Regarding Dana Elcar as the gruff yet competant Sheriff Patterson......i read somewhere that he is blind from advanced diabetes......now there is a guy who has been in every kind of movie you could think.......i remember him as a mean FBI agent in that Redford/Newman film "The Sting" in 1973. Come to think of it....he never seemed to age much through the years......i think he was only in his early 40's when he played Sheriff Patterson......anyway...i hope he finds peace in the twilight of his life :)
I intended to respond to this and was just reminded when I surfed into an ep of MacGyver on TVLand. Anyway, his blindness was caused by glaucoma, though he has played a blind diabetic on shows such as Law & Order (my personal fave) and ER.
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With all Roger has on his mind.....its refreshing to see him on the outside footage intro of ep #68 arriving at his office......he even seems to have waved a good morning to one of the Collins Cannery Slaves.....nice guy......and what a kewl office......complete with dartboard :P
devlin,as you go foreward with the show keep your eyes peeled for that office.you'll spot it over...and over...and over... ::)
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Maybe I am just too spoiled by the supernatural aspect of the Barnabas episodes that I so much prefer them. The supernatural escapism was what drew me to the show, it made it different from other soaps at that time and most soaps from this day and age as well.
Not saying the pre-Barnabas episodes were bad, having watched them the first time a few years back on the sci-fi channel I actually found much to enjoy (I especially liked the Laura story and who killed Bill Malloy plot). But until the [spoiler]Bill Malloy's ghost appearing to Vicki, then Josette's spirit stepping out of the portrait)[/spoiler] DS seemed liked just another typical soap to me.
Once Barnabas came, the show really picked up speed.
I have to agree though, as much as I love Barnabas and the supernatural stories that came along, unfortunately some of the characters did get pushed to the background. Roger for instance. I agree he was much more prominent and better used in the pre-Barnabas episodes than he was after Barnabas came along, which is a shame because he was a blast to watch when he was being all pompous. Elizabeth's character did seem to change also with Barnabas' arrival, she was definitely a lot more strong-willed at the beginning of the show, and she did seem to lose some of it especially after [spoiler]Cassandra put a spell on her, making her obsessed about death and making her believe she was Naomi.[/spoiler]
The one thing I would have changed about the Barnabas/supernatural episodes coming into more focus was give Roger and Elizabeth more airtime. Someone already suggested that David's parentage should come into doubt, and that would have been a good one to showcase Roger [spoiler](and have the results prove that Roger is indeed David's dad).[/spoiler]