DARK SHADOWS FORUMS
General Discussions => Current Talk Archive => Current Talk '24 I => Current Talk '07 I => Topic started by: Taeylor Collins on February 27, 2007, 05:24:04 AM
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I just started my Leviathan DVDS the other day. I have always loved this storyline, and wondered if there we're any other fans who liked it as well. I thought that it had a DARKNESS that no other storyline ever featured in it. I liked the "evil" Barnabas and it seemed like Jon enjoyed playing the new evil Barnabas. I know there are some problems with the storyline but I truly liked it. Am I the odd one out? Just curious.
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I've always considered the Leviathan storyline my least favorite with the exception of the first Laura storyline which I hate with a passion, but this last time seeing it on my DVD's it was pretty good. Though it will never be my favorite storyline there are a lot of things in it that I found more interesting this time around.
Alondra
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I'm one who enjoyed the Leviathan storyline. I remember watching it during DS's initial run, and always hoped that it would be the next episode where they would finally show what that thing actually looked like!
Gerard
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In spite of its myriad problems, I've always liked the Leviathans. When I was a young ¢â‚¬Ëœun, we didn't get cable till 1969, and it was only then that I was able to start watching DS regularly. The Leviathans episodes were just starting up, and back then, as far as I knew, that was what DS was all about. I still have a real soft spot for the storyline -- and as a fan of Lovecraftian fiction, my appreciation of that aspect has grown over the years.
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As a child, the Leviathan storyline kind of went over my head, but watching them now as an adult, I really appreciate it a lot more.
In a way it sort of reminded me of Invasion of the Body Snatchers, with the characters we have grown to love turned into emotionless, unfeeling zombies. [spoiler]Except in this case, in the end, the folks at Collinwood eventually return to their normal, emotional, caring selves.[/spoiler]
There was a certain twist in there that I definitely loathed (and a lot of others on here hated it as well) but all in all, the Leviathans, while not the best storyline, was certainly very interesting to watch.
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I have never really liked the Bad Barn after he was good. In some ways it showed how weak Barnabas was, I always wondered how and why Barn didn't fight it? I know it must have been good for Jonathan not just to play only the good Barnabas. He didn't seam to be protecting his family. The main thing that I didn't like was the fact the Barnabas was so mean to Julia.
I also thought it was too long. The bratty kids really got me. It was just to much. I wanted to strangle the kids more than once. It just to much.
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Hey Taeylor,
I'm a HUGE fan of Leviathan. It is my second favorite storyline (second only to the Cassandra Collins story in 1968 which was when I started watching, so it will always have pride of place in my heart). I'm a major Julia Hoffman fan and I love all the fun stuff they gave Grayson to do in this, especially in the first two months of it. It kind of went downhill rapidly after that, I think because Dan Curtis ordered them to wrap it up in a hurry because of all the hate mail the studio was receiving about it.
In my opinion the real reason why fans back then hated this storyline was because people could not accept Barnabas as a bad guy. Fans also complained that there were two many scenes "down at that weird antique shop" but IMO the scenes at the shop are among the highlights of the story because Sy created such a wonderful atmosphere in there.
I think DC kept wanting to "push the envelope" with the show. The original Barnabas storyline in '67 was quite outrageous by the standards of daytime television back then. I believe that DS was the first soap opera as well to feature shirtless male stars (Don Briscoe, Joel Crothers, David Selby). With Leviathan and its Lovecraftian overtones (really far more Gothic than sci-fi, despite what some critics and fan commentators have written), there was a perception that the series had gone too far and alienated its fan base. You will notice that the PT 1970 story which followed it was much more "traditional" in certain ways (I'm a huge fan of that one, as well, btw).
cheers, G.
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Ah, the subject of a long and heated (as opposed to short and colded?) debate.
I rather enjoyed the story when I watched it on the DVDs, because it was easier to follow and not as broken up like it was on SciFi. It was easier to follow I suppose.
MAJOR detractors where those pesky Leviathan children and all their antics: "I hate her!" "I want your radio David!" blah blah blah. I just wanted to smack them off the roof of Collinwood!
But, Bad Barn was a plus, and as someone else mentioned, his treatment of Julia in this storyline is superb (not for her but for the story). Some of my favorite Barnabas/Julia scenes are from early on when they don't trust each other. And during this story the way he treats her and doesn't entrust her with his secrets anymore, the hurt is visible on her face. But she continues fighting the way she needs to in order to find out what's really going on. Great stuff.
Oh, and there's that other THING that BLARES like a HORN and makes you want to AS()@$&#($&#@R#!~ at the writers, but hey, other than that, the Leviathan's aren't really so bad.
I just wish there was more [spoiler]vamp Megan.[/spoiler]
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I just wish there was more [spoiler]vamp Megan.[/spoiler]
It would have been very interesting if [spoiler]vamp Megan had been allowed to develop along the lines of vamp Angelique.[/spoiler]But alas, Leviathans was winding down by the time [spoiler]Megan got vamped. And in a way it's actually good that Megan was killed off so soon because, even though it was DS' loss, Marie was cast on Somerset in one of her best soap roles (India Delaney) and the soap world was better for it.[/spoiler]
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What I didnt like was the changing of the origin of the Leviathan's
[spoiler]Oberson was the original leader and the Leviathan's were from an otherwroldy dimension. Then because of fan reaction, they decide to "retcon" the roigin so that Nicholas Blair was always the leader and the Leviathan's were in league with the devil.[/spoiler]
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I've been watching these episodes recently on DVD for the first time since my initial SciFi run. I don't really recall much of this storyline when it first aired, or my reactions to it... other than frustration that certain loose ends were not being wrapped up (nor would they be, ever). I'm certainly enjoying it now, and hoping my bleak memories of 1970PT will be... well not unfounded, but not as bad as I remember.
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It would have been very interesting if [spoiler]vamp Megan had been allowed to develop along the lines of vamp Angelique.[/spoiler]
Yes since when [spoiler]Julia and Barnabas offered to try to cure her she flat rejected this, said she loved being a vampire. It would have been great if they had delved more into her reasons for this. But I love the scenes with Willie being given the assignment of staking her, how nervous it made him, how his lip quivered, and how at the last he heroically did the deed. Now if only Barn could have brought himself to say thanks Willie, but no.[/spoiler]
Alondra
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I'm gonna give Barnabas the benefit of the doubt and say he DID thank Willie....we just didn't get to see it on screen.
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For me, it was the thinness of the threat-- a big snake that conveniently is never seen but only talked about-- and the slowness of the plot. After the rapid-fire of 1897, I just couldn't take going back to the old soap opera pace, where everything is dragged out and discussed over and over and over.
At some point, fairly early in the plot, it hit me... they're never going to show the asthmatic snake, ever, are they? They can't, they don't have the budget. So from then on, I got mad every time they teased us with the horrible creature, trying to make us wonder if THIS will be the day we see it. Sure, suspense is great, but only if there's something behind it, or else it's a cheat, and the audience is betrayed.
I'd like to see Somerset.
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I am still really enjoying the Leviathan Eps. I too like Brandon enjoy the distrust between Julia/Barney. I also love the altar...and I love the area beneath the altar...very very spooky. :) So in his true form the Leviathan being was A BIG SNAKE?? Also the sign of the NAGA is that a word that made up or does it have basis in HP LOVECRAFT'S novel...which I really want to read.
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Hi Taeylor,
They never specified exactly what the Leviathan creature looked like, but IMNSHO it resembled the hideous, transgalactic, nightmare terror of "Yog Sothoth" as revealed in the climax of the 1969 film of The Dunwich Horror. A lot of the plot of Leviathan was inspired by The Dunwich Horror, with some bits of The Call of Cthulhu thrown in for good measure. (These were both originally short stories by H. P. Lovecraft)
Naga, female Nagini, is a Sanskrit word denoting a spiritual being taking the form of a snake. If you check Wikipedia there's probably an entry about it. My talk of Jeb's personal Naga is my own little joke, I'm afraid...
cheers, G.
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I'd still like to know where the werewolf mythos came in. Was this an original part of the story? Because if not, Neil Gaiman is a Dark Shadows fan.
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You know, I must say, that I am getting a total kick out of the fact that for once, Roger's in on fighting the supernatural baddies.
[spoiler]So I'm on disc 3, the episodes where Jeb and his zombie army bury Quentin alive, and the question pops up, just how much protection does his portrait afford him? Does it only protect him from aging and wounded flesh? Can he actually die from suffocation or drowning of the like?[/spoiler]
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I think Q would die, and then his corpse would continue to look unchanged and as fresh as a daisy, while the image in his portrait decomposed, which it was going to do anyway.
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I thought the Leviathan monster looked like the three headed snake on the altar. Its probably best we didnt see it as it would have looked incredibly fake & cheesy. I wonder if they could have used footage from one of the Japanese monster films as I recall one of them had a flying three headed monster.
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I would rather use my imagination than see a HORRID HORRID daytime FX. If they did it today on Daytime it would suck...imagine 1970.
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No. King Ghidorah would never work out. He charges two legs and no arms.
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v665/damnedrodan/ghidora.jpg)
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No. King Ghidorah would never work out. He charges two legs and no arms.
Laughing so hard I hurt. I really mean it. [crowdhappy]
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I'd still like to know where the werewolf mythos came in. Was this an original part of the story? Because if not, Neil Gaiman is a Dark Shadows fan.
my leviathan is a bit rusty but if i recall as originally plotted the leviathans existed only as an "energy" or something of that sort.there was no physical manifestation.
the show during the begining of this storyline was basically divided in half.barnabas lead the leviathan plot and julia lead the remainder of the chris jennings werewolf plot.the characters involved in each plot didn't interact much with those in the other.
so my guess is that tacking the werewolf thing onto the leviathan thing was a clumsy late attempt to interweave the two storylines.it didn't make any sense as the leviathans were originally described.
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I was wondering where the werewolf mythos came in to Lovecraft's works, if at all.
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No connection to Lovecraft whatsoever. Now if Quentin had turned into a cat instead of a werewolf... maybe then. (Lovecraft was extraordinarily fond of cats and occasionally presented them as heroic figures.)
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I actually liked the whole werewolf thing that was added in the end. Knocked Jeb down about 1000 pegs, which was definitely a good thing.
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No connection to Lovecraft whatsoever. Now if Quentin had turned into a cat instead of a werewolf... maybe then. (Lovecraft was extraordinarily fond of cats and occasionally presented them as heroic figures.)
Ah ha! Thanks for the answer. I could be NOT lazy and actually go out and get his books, but I'm working my way through Richard Matheson at the moment. For future reference, any suggestions for a first time Lovecraft reader?
And yay for cats!
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(http://bookweb.kinokuniya.co.jp/bimgdata/FC1931082723.JPG) (http://www.amazon.com/H-P-Lovecraft-Library-America/dp/1931082723/ref=pd_bbs_sr_1/105-1799252-8346009?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1173099595&sr=1-1)
H. P. Lovecraft: Tales, (http://www.amazon.com/H-P-Lovecraft-Library-America/dp/1931082723/ref=pd_bbs_sr_1/105-1799252-8346009?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1173099595&sr=1-1) edited by Peter Straub, is an excellent volume featuring most of HPL's best stories. Stories I'd recommend most for the DS fan would be "The Dunwich Horror," "Whisperer in the Darkness," "Call of Cthulhu," "Haunter of the Dark," and "Dreams in the Witch House." Also on my general recommended reading list are "The Thing on the Doorstep," "The Shadow Over Innsmouth," "At the Mountains of Madness," and "The Music of Erich Zann" (which is the basis for several of my own Cthulhu-related stories in my collection The Last Trumpet. (http://www.amazon.com/gp/redirect.html?ie=UTF8&location=http://www.amazon.com/Last-Trumpet-Rainey-Stephen-Mark/dp/1587152118/sr=1-4/qid=1170475040?ie=UTF8&s=books&tag=therealmofste-20&linkCode=ur2&camp=1789&creative=9325)
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All I know about Lovecraft is from an ineffective tutorial a friend gave me on a tape-letter (problem was on my end) last year, though I learned that with my crappy concentration, the dense writing is something I'd better avoid to give my charley-horsed brain a break. Too bad-- it sounds very cool. All I really know is that there were those '70s paperback covers with faces with bricks over parts of them, or worms crawling out of the eyesockets and whatnot.
I don't know why I'm saying "whatnot" lately. Some of these things may just be to entertain me.
In any DS storyline I don't like so much, I'm frustrated yet relieved toward the end, when they start throwing kitchen sinks in. It livens things up, at least. Though, if they'd worked on making the concept stranger and creepier toward the end instead of throwing in Blair and conventionalizing the 'evil', I might feel better about Leviathans now. Where are those defiant (behind closed doors?), beleaguered, subversive DS writers making it good in spite of their overseer, when you need them? Off with paying jobs to feed their families, probably. Good for them.
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Thanks Mark! I'll definitely pick up a copy the next time I'm at the book store.
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Hi Arashi,
if you have the chance, some day you should read The Case of Charles Dexter Ward by Lovecraft. It includes some flashbacks to the 18th century that are far more historically realistic than what was attempted on DS--the closest link, I think, apart from a Professor Stokes-like character who gets involved, is that it was an inspiration (via the film adaptation, The Haunted Palace) for the film Night of Dark Shadows.
I personally find Lovecraft's fiction quite addictive. The Lurker at the Threshold and The Thing on the Doorstep are great yarns both of which have a DS sort of atmosphere about them. I guess you'll either love it or hate it. It's difficult to be indifferent to HPL!
G.
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if you have the chance, some day you should read The Case of Charles Dexter Ward by Lovecraft. It includes some flashbacks to the 18th century that are far more historically realistic than what was attempted on DS--the closest link, I think, apart from a Professor Stokes-like character who gets involved, is that it was an inspiration (via the film adaptation, The Haunted Palace) for the film Night of Dark Shadows.
Thanks! I absolutely LOVE the Haunted Palace, I'll be sure to check that out as well. I think a trip through Amazon might be in order.
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Stories I'd recommend most for the DS fan would be "The Dunwich Horror," "Whisperer in the Darkness," "Call of Cthulhu," "Haunter of the Dark," and "Dreams in the Witch House." Also on my general recommended reading list are "The Thing on the Doorstep," "The Shadow Over Innsmouth," "At the Mountains of Madness," and "The Music of Erich Zann"
Besides the stories Mark has named, I recommend "In the Vault," "The Picture in the House," "Rats in the Walls," "The Hound," and "Herbert West--Reanimator."
ProfStokes
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I personally find Lovecraft's fiction quite addictive. The Lurker at the Threshold and The Thing on the Doorstep are great yarns both of which have a DS sort of atmosphere about them. I guess you'll either love it or hate it. It's difficult to be indifferent to HPL!
"The Lurker at the Threshold" is actually one of August Derleth's "posthumous collaborations" with Lovecraft -- meaning that Derleth wrote the novella based on some notes Lovecraft left for a tale he never fully realized. It's an enjoyable enough story, but it's 95% Derleth, whose horror work is generally considered rather pedestrian. I doubt it was in any way intentional, but the Leviathans actually have more in common with Derleth's expansions of the Cthulhu mythos than with Lovecraft's own work.
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I was watching the end of disc 3 in boxset 19 tonight, when I came across this episode.
[spoiler]Barnabas and Julia are discussing the whereabouts of Megan Todd's coffin, or Parallel Time, or SOMETHING. But that aside Barnabas at this point in the storyline is a vampire again. For the duration of their conversation, Julia is wearing a rather large silver cross.
(http://www.hollowmoon.net/pics/screenshots/cross.jpg)
Later in the episode she pulls it out and SHOWS it to Barnabas to show him that she is protected against Megan's vampiric impulses..... and yet the cross has absolutely no effect on Barnabas, who is, I repeat, a vampire again.
(http://www.hollowmoon.net/pics/screenshots/cross2.jpg)[/spoiler]
I'm sure it's been mentioned before, but I mean.... COME ON!
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I just started watching the Leviathon story line myself, and so far it's just very slow moving. That Alexander kid is about as awful as it gets - is he actually talking baby-talk while trying to sound ominous? It's painful. And that dream Elizabeth had with David in the funhouse made me embarassed to be watching. I'm not totally turned off by it, but it's definitely one of the weaker story lines. Coming as it does after all the very exciting events of 1897, it's a major shift in the pace of the show and not a good. one. But it's not nearly as bad as the whole Turn of the Screw thing that took place prior to 1897 and it's not quite as boring as the middle part of the Adam storyline, so I'm still somewhat satisfied. Amanda Harris is the only bright spot so far.
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[spoiler]Later in the episode she pulls it out and SHOWS it to Barnabas to show him that she is protected against Megan's vampiric impulses..... and yet the cross has absolutely no effect on Barnabas, who is, I repeat, a vampire again.[/spoiler]
I'm sure it's been mentioned before, but I mean.... COME ON!
Yeah, that gaffe was so obvious too. [spoiler]Barnabas was affected by crosses before and after this scene in the series. You'd think *someone* would have said "Hey wait a minute. Shouldn't Barnabas turn away or something?" They could have just had Julia tell him she had a cross instead of showing it to him.[/spoiler]
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Thanks for that correction, Mark. I was actually thinking of "The Haunter of the Dark." I realized last year while looking at a Lovecraft anthology given to me by a friend some years ago that I had NEVER READ that tale, so I promptly sat down and read it. I absolutely adored it so you would think I would have been able to remember the title! Love the notion of the Shining Trapezehedron which seems to have been "borrowed" into the Buffyverse, as well... (I had to find the proper title of this tale by running a google on Shining Trapezehedron. Yes, I could remember that unwieldly phrase, but not the title of the story. My mind is an odd place to live.)
As for that other incident, [spoiler]I know it's mega-naff but I like to imagine that clever Julia had designed a cross that was friendly to Barn but repelled all other vampires![/spoiler]
Cheers, G.
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Nothing wrong with living in an odd mind, G. I rather enjoy mine. ;)
"Haunter of the Dark" is in my top two or three favorite horror stories of all time. It's incredibly atmospheric and actually right spooky. Interestingly, Lovecraft wrote it with his sense of humor fully intact, as it was a response to Robert Bloch's "The Shambler From the Stars," in which young Bloch killed off a character based on Lovecraft. HPL returned the favor with "Haunter," and then Bloch followed it up with "The Shadow From the Steeple," in effect creating a "Trapezohedron Trilogy." Alas, the Bloch stories are not very good. He was just coming into his own at the time.
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I actually like the leviathan episodes. We get to see Carolyn working for once in her life!
However I think the writers could have devised a better plot line for Quentin's return, giving him amnesia was quite ridiculous. It didn't fit in with any of the plot.
It was very interesting to see barnabas and Julia at odds with each other, he under the leviathan influence and behaving uncharacteristically towards Julia, she bewildered and hurt by his strange reaction to her.
AlsoThe return of Carolyn's father was an unexpected surprise, I wish more could have been done with this character instead of having him killed off by Jeb.
I liked the Todds a lot. They were a good couple trying to start their own business. They loved each other and were very happy. It's really tragic the leviathans had to ruin their lives. :(
When Jeb transforms Barnabas back in to a vampire, why is Barnabas so forgiving and friendly towards him after this? you'd think he'd be furious in the least and behave very hostile towards Jeb.
I always thought the leviathans were aliens. So if they're not aliens, what exactly are they? ???
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Nope the Leviathans are not aliens. They're ancient, powerful, extraplanar beings - sort of like demons without the fallen angel aspect. They are a powerful evil force from beyond time and space.
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However I think the writers could have devised a better plot line for Quentin's return, giving him amnesia was quite ridiculous. It didn't fit in with any of the plot.
I didn't mind the amnesia angle so much as the fact they gave Quentin so very little to do after [spoiler]Olivia/Amanda was killed off.[/spoiler] After that he was designated to do little more other than to be a shoulder to cry on for the remainer of the storyline. I hated that. [Rant_Emote]
AlsoThe return of Carolyn's father was an unexpected surprise, I wish more could have been done with this character instead of having him killed off by Jeb.
Yes, I would definitely have loved to have seen more of the relationship between Carolyn and Paul, and also between Paul and Elizabeth once [spoiler]she was free of the Leviathans' control. But I understand Dennis Patrick was off to do a movie around that time so they just decided to kill Paul off.[/spoiler]
I liked the Todds a lot. They were a good couple trying to start their own business. They loved each other and were very happy. It's really tragic the leviathans had to ruin their lives. :(
Yes what happened with Philip and Megan was a tragedy. They were just two ordinary people who wanted to live their lives as they wanted to and be happy....and then the Leviathans had to come along and enslave them and destroyed the promising prospects they had. Whenever I watch [spoiler]Megan siding over Michael the monster over Philip, that was bad enough, but it was even worse when Megan was willing to just sit by and watch Jeb railroad Philip over the murders of Paul, the Sheriff and Inspector Guthrie. That was the point to me that the Todds' marriage had reached the point of no return, at least as far as Megan was concerned, she remained loyal to them at the expense of herself and her marriage. At least Philip eventually realized the Leviathans' cause wasn't worth it. He wanted to save Megan and their marriage (too bad she never came around to this point of view).[/spoiler]
When Jeb transforms Barnabas back in to a vampire, why is Barnabas so forgiving and friendly towards him after this? you'd think he'd be furious in the least and behave very hostile towards Jeb.
I don't think Barnabas totally 100 percent, forgave Jeb, but he did come to realize that Jeb really loved Carolyn and she him, and for Carolyn's sake and her happiness he knew he had to make at an effort to at least be civil to Jeb.
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Thanks to everyone who recommended Lovecraft stories to me. I was in the bookstore recently and hunted out the only Lovecraft book in the whole damn store. 2 floors of books, this store is HUGE, (the local Borders in Bangor) and the "horror" section consists of 4 shelves in 1 case. So, so very sad. Especially in Stephen King's hometown.
Anyhow, I was up in the late wee hours of the morning and decided to crack the book. You could now say that I'm hooked. I made it through Cool Air, The Hound, and The Lurking Fear before I realized that dawn was steadfastly approaching. Once I finish this I'll definitely be looking for his other works. Thanks so very much again! :D
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it wasn't my least favorite storyline Early Laura and PT do that
for me but i did start to hate "groovy" Jeb and that awful
jacket and those bratty kids Alexander being the worst
i just don't think it can compare to 1795 and 1897
and the Haunting by Quentin and the chris Jennings story
jennifer