DARK SHADOWS FORUMS
General Discussions => Current Talk Archive => Current Talk '24 I => Current Talk '02 I => Topic started by: VAM on April 25, 2002, 06:45:44 PM
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Naomi's suicide could be considered a cowardly way out or an act of sheer despiration. Can the two reasons be separated?
What do you thinK?
VAM, who is trying to show a serious side to her posts. :-/
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Naomi's suicide could be considered a cowardly way out or an act of sheer despiration. Can the two reasons be separated?
What do you thinK?
VAM, who is trying to show a serious side to her posts. :-/
Naomi, by all accounts, has a long standing drinking problem. Maybe it is alcoholism. If we accept that premise, we need to apply the mindset of "an addict" and this entails spates (or ongoing) of faulty reasoning, serious self-esteem issues, etc. Here we have a mother who saw her youngest child die suddenly, and the same for her son. These children represented the warmth in her life. You could store meat and frozen vegetables anywhere on Joshua. I believe if you combine those two horrible heartbreaks on top of an already longstanding unhappy, troubled state of mind, you can understand what suicide was the answer at the moment. Our self-preservation is the strongest instinct we have, and many will argue that to commit suicide you are (at least for the moment) out of your mind. It might be a passing moment of madness, but suicide is permanent.
Nancy
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What mother of a dying child abandons the fight before her child is gone?
I can't buy Naomi's suicide while her son still has even the "appearance" of life. Especially since she has just been given the proof of Joshua's profound love for her.
That alone should have lifted her up, enabled her to remain at Joshua's side and fight for her son's life, or his death, whichever they could manage.
THEN, I could imagine, the magnitude of her combined losses might have completely overwhelmed her ....but not before.
Once again, expediency won out over craft when the writers were handed this assignment.
Rainey
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What mother of a dying child abandons the fight before her child is gone?
I can't buy Naomi's suicide while her son still has even the "appearance" of life. Especially since she has just been given the proof of Joshua's profound love for her.
That alone should have lifted her up, enabled her to remain at Joshua's side and fight for her son's life, or his death, whichever they could manage.
THEN, I could imagine, the magnitude of her combined losses might have completely overwhelmed her ....but not before.
Once again, expediency won out over craft when the writers were handed this assignment.
Rainey
If I were Barnabas' mother (which I'm glad I'm not, by the way) and I saw him suffer and die, only to discover his coffin and see him standing and seemingly breathing some time later, I would suspect there was something seriously wrong with that arrangement from the get-go. Why would he not have shown up before all that if he really were alive? And why would he need a coffin around? Too poor to buy a regular bed?
Given all the weird crap that has happened to that family, I do not blame her if she immediately thought there was something painfully abnormal about Barnabas being up and walking. I don't think she is in her mind anyway with all that she has endured on top of a substance problem.
Nancy
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Nancy, your comments about the "unnatural" circumstances of Barnabas' living death reminded me of somthing I haven't thought about in a long time.
I've read many of Stephen King's novels and enjoyed most of the ones I've read. But the one novel I found too profoundly disturbing was "Pet Cemetery"....for very personal reasons.
One of my cousins died when he was a teenager, and I remember thinking, as I read that story, "If someone had come to my Aunt, in the midst of that unimaginable grief, and whispered to her 'I can bring him back', I can imagine her agreeing to ANYTHING, doing ANYTHING, no matter how insane it seemed.....if she believed it could be done."
I guess it's THAT reaction I'm thinking of, when I say I don't believe a Mother would give up while there was still even just the 'appearance' of life.
Rainey
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I don't know I think Naomi just had all she could take. I finding Barnabas and learning that he could have done all those horrible things just might have been her last straw. Never mind that her husband didn't confide in her about their son. Everyone had good points, her problem with alcohol most likely added to this desperation.
Raineypack said she could not see a mother giving up hope. Sad to say but I can. This comes from personal experience. When my daughter was sick there was a time when I prayed if her life was going to be so awful that God take her or make her better. Thank goodness she got better and is now l8 years old and in college.
Now my sister in law has that same problem. Our nephew has been in a coma for over a year. The quality of life is just not there. The chances of this changes are so very slim now. That if he gets sick they just might let him go. They spend everyday with him all day. He was hurt at his college either by a hit or run or attacked.
Sorry I am rambling on and on.
Birdie
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You're not rambling Birdie....and if you are, then so am I.
I understand that there comes a time when letting go makes more sense than hanging on. My Mother had Alzheimer's Disease for 11 years before she died, and was completely unresponsive for the last 4. That's a VERY long time saying goodbye.
I can imagine quite easily a time when a parent would be willing to let a child go......but I have a hard time imagining a parent being more willing to go ahead, and leave the child behind.
My heart goes out to your nephew and his parents.
VAM.....you wanted serious.........
Rainey
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Nancy, your comments about the "unnatural" circumstances of Barnabas' living death reminded me of somthing I haven't thought about in a long time.
I've read many of Stephen King's novels and enjoyed most of the ones I've read. But the one novel I found too profoundly disturbing was "Pet Cemetery"....for very personal reasons.
One of my cousins died when he was a teenager, and I remember thinking, as I read that story, "If someone had come to my Aunt, in the midst of that unimaginable grief, and whispered to her 'I can bring him back', I can imagine her agreeing to ANYTHING, doing ANYTHING, no matter how insane it seemed.....if she believed it could be done."
I guess it's THAT reaction I'm thinking of, when I say I don't believe a Mother would give up while there was still even just the 'appearance' of life.
Rainey
Yes, I can understand that reaction in that context. However, remember in the case of Naomi, the talk of curses, witchcraft and the obvious fact something is seriously wrong in that family creates a different context in finding/seeing Barnabas long after he has supposedly been dead. You could also make an argument that Naomi might have not trusted her instincts and wondered if she had not totally flipped out. She may not have been conscious enough to articulate such feelings. Even though Naomi did not believe in witchcraft, she understood that things were not as they appeared in that household. Could the site of a live Barnabas be yet another cruel joke or a haunting? I say all this and I did not see the eps today, so I am only going by memory.
Nancy
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I don't know I think Naomi just had all she could take. I finding Barnabas and learning that he could have done all those horrible things just might have been her last straw. Never mind that her husband didn't confide in her about their son. Everyone had good points, her problem with alcohol most likely added to this desperation.
Raineypack said she could not see a mother giving up hope. Sad to say but I can. This comes from personal experience. When my daughter was sick there was a time when I prayed if her life was going to be so awful that God take her or make her better. Thank goodness she got better and is now l8 years old and in college.
Now my sister in law has that same problem. Our nephew has been in a coma for over a year. The quality of life is just not there. The chances of this changes are so very slim now. That if he gets sick they just might let him go. They spend everyday with him all day. He was hurt at his college either by a hit or run or attacked.
Sorry I am rambling on and on.
Birdie
Birdie, I am glad your daughter recovered, but very sorry to hear the situation your nephew is in. :(
Nancy
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I think at this point, Naomi honestly felt she was "at the end of her rope," therefore hitting that point of rock bottom. Naomi has had to deal with one heartbreak after another. With her especially loving & emotional nature, this surely must have taken it's toll on her. I think at this point she felt like she hit the bottom and sadly, not being of rational mind, felt there was no other way out. I think she might not had done it if she had only spoken to Barnabas FIRST. It was way too late by the time she finally got to hear his side of the story. I think it was Lt. Forbes putting all those awful ideas into her head about Barnabas. Maybe seeing and speaking to him in person first, she might have changed her mind about killing herself. This way she would have seen him for herself and perhaps, just speaking to him, would have made all the difference in the matter.
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I agree, Cassandra, that seeing and speaking with Barnabas beforehand, would HAVE to have made a difference in Naomi.
But the part of today's episodes that stands out for me is the incredible realization she comes to.....that Joshua DOES love her....that he attempted to shield her from these awful truths NOT because he thought she was a useless drunk, but because he truly LOVED her and wanted to spare her the pain!!
If she was rational and perceptive enough to realize this, in the midst of all that was going on around her, I find it hard to agree that she was just "too far gone" to act with purpose and strength of will. She DOES act with determination....it's just the act she chooses that I find unreasonable.
Rainey
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I agree, Cassandra, that seeing and speaking with Barnabas beforehand, would HAVE to have made a difference in Naomi.
But the part of today's episodes that stands out for me is the incredible realization she comes to.....that Joshua DOES love her....that he attempted to shield her from these awful truths NOT because he thought she was a useless drunk, but because he truly LOVED her and wanted to spare her the pain!!
If she was rational and perceptive enough to realize this, in the midst of all that was going on around her, I find it hard to agree that she was just "too far gone" to act with purpose and strength of will. She DOES act with determination....it's just the act she chooses that I find unreasonable.
Rainey
Rainey, just because she may have realized what Joshua was trying to do for her, it doesn't just up and erase all thall the times she was ignored, put down and how her overall view of her world is or the depth of her emotional arrest dulled by what we have to think is years of alcohol. I don't think Joshua was always uncaring; I'm sure he had his moments, in private, that he was. But he normally was not for whatever reason. As Luciaphil said, Joshua did have feelings and he clearly cared about his family. An occasional act of kindness does not undo all the times the needed kindness and understanding was not present when it was needed.
Nancy
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Nancy, I would absolutely agree with your position on this.....no argument from me that one act of kindness could possibly make up for the way Joshua has obviously behaved for many years.
Except for one thing.....
In my opinion, the scene, as it was played in today's episode, was MEANT to be a denoument, a revelation, for Naomi. If it WASN'T intended to be played that way, then Joan Bennet sure as hell took it into her own hands to MAKE it appear that way.
It comes across that she IS forgiving him....probably because she knows she's going to leave him. THAT's the part I have so much trouble with:
He loves her. He admits it. She realises it. She forgives him. Now....they have a son in terrible danger....what does she do? She abandons him.
On top of the fact that I cannot fathom that behavior from a mother, I simply think the thing is badly written. If they wanted us to accept that she was utterly despairing, they should have never had that intimate and revealing moment between Joshua and Naomi take place. After that scene, her suicide just rings false. IMHO.
Rainey
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MB?.....Midnite?.....be sure to let me know when I've exhausted my allowable posts on a single thread......I MUST be getting close here! ;)
Rainey
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Raineypack, don't worry you do have some valid points. I feel bad that I put my personal things out there. Guess I am just in a mood. I do understand what you are saying.
Birdie
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MB?.....Midnite?.....be sure to let me know when I've exhausted my allowable posts on a single thread......I MUST be getting close here! ;)
Hi,
The only limit is 10 posts within a 24 hour period, though it goes by the forum clock which is on GMT, which means it started over again a little over an hour ago (I'm typing this at a little after 5 p.m. West Coast time). But other than the 10 posts per 24 hours, you're free to post within a topic as much as you want.
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I have to admit that I never thought this query would solicit so many interesting responses. Maybe VAM should continue to show a serious side?
Birdie, I am sorry to hear about your nephew. He has my prayers.
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Birdie, please don't feel bad! I'm glad you feel comfortable around the rest of us to share personal stuff.
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Nancy, I would absolutely agree with your position on this.....no argument from me that one act of kindness could possibly make up for the way Joshua has obviously behaved for many years.
Except for one thing.....
In my opinion, the scene, as it was played in today's episode, was MEANT to be a denoument, a revelation, for Naomi. If it WASN'T intended to be played that way, then Joan Bennet sure as hell took it into her own hands to MAKE it appear that way.
It comes across that she IS forgiving him....probably because she knows she's going to leave him. THAT's the part I have so much trouble with:
He loves her. He admits it. She realises it. She forgives him. Now....they have a son in terrible danger....what does she do? She abandons him.
On top of the fact that I cannot fathom that behavior from a mother, I simply think the thing is badly written. If they wanted us to accept that she was utterly despairing, they should have never had that intimate and revealing moment between Joshua and Naomi take place. After that scene, her suicide just rings false. IMHO.
Rainey
Rainey,
Yes, I can see your point. I finally saw the eps you are talking about and the only thing I could come up with is that Naomi declared her love for Barnabas, and he begged her to not do that. Of course, she already took the poison. Did Joshua ever declare his love for Barnabas? If he didn't, that's how he survived.
I agree with you now - the way the scenes were written and constructed left much to be desired, and I see why you are so dissatisfied.
nancy
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Midnite.....I was KIDDING! There really IS a limit to the number of posts you can put on a single thread?!! :o
Well....learn something new every day!!
Nancy, Ladies, I think we all did a grand job of dissecting poor Naomi's psyche! ;)
Rainey
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Naomi committed suicide because of the curse. It makes no sense as to why she would do so otherwise. Granted, she went to hell and back, but common sense as per her headstrongedness dictates that she would take the bull by the horns to do whatever she could to make her son a normal guy once again. She died because of the curse - that anyone who loves Barnabas would die. She was under its influence, and was not culpable.
Gerard
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Oh, and Birdie, I'm so sorry about your nephew! My thoughts are with you and your family.
Gerard
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Wow, what a lot of really interesting comments. I'm tempted to stay out of this one, but restraint has never been my strong suit 8)
I think a strong case can be made that Naomi is suffering from some sort of depression. Admittedly we haven't seen some of the more serious symptoms--she has been able, for instance, to manage to get out of bed, function, etc. She has shown signs of despair, however. She's expressed loss of control, feeling hopelessness. I don't get the sense that this character has felt joy in a very long time. I do get a profound sense that she feels lost and alone.
Her husband can't or won't express emotions. The child she would like to take care of wants to go back to his own home. Millicent's losing it and she's got people like Trask (or did) and Nathan twisting the knife.
But she's lost two children in the space of a short period of time. Seeing your son come back from the dead, has got to mess with your mind on some level. Of course, we can only speculate about this here as it's not like it's ever happened to anyone we know.
The Collins family is never shown to be particularly religious, but I think it's arguable that Naomi would have a fairly conventional set of beliefs and values. When all of that has been turned upside down and back again and then thrown into the equivalent of an Osterizer and set on puree, well, again, that's got to cause damage.
When you're suffering from those kinds of problems (and I haven't even touched on the alcoholism), well, it's sadly plausible to me that Naomi would choose to kill herself.
I don't believe that this is an act of cowardice. Cowardice to me would be her packing up her bags and going to Boston to leave her husband with the mess.
She just can't handle it anymore. The woman was in pain. She feels lost. She's alone. When you're depressed, the slightest thing can make you break down, and here she's been handled more pain in a couple of months than most people get in a life time.
Birdie, I'm so sorry about your nephew ((((hugs))))
Luciaphil
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Midnite.....I was KIDDING! There really IS a limit to the number of posts you can put on a single thread?!! :o
Well....learn something new every day!!
Oops. :)
But my point was that there's no limit on the number of posts you can put in a single thread... only on the number made anywhere on the forums each 24 hour period.
Nancy, Ladies, I think we all did a grand job of dissecting poor Naomi's psyche! ;)
Agreed! You all did a great job, and Gerard too!!
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No one seems to have mentioned the fact that Naomi actually saw what he was doing to Millicent. As she first said to Joshua, "he's like an animal!" It's not just that he's still alive and maybe has a chance, but she's had a quite graphic indication of what his life is. And Joshua seems to have indicated that he wasn't successful in Boston. Her reply indicates that she doesn't believe there's any hope for him.
And, as others have said, she does it before her meeting with him.
I think it was on another thread that someone asked if she might have been carrying the poison around, waiting for an opportunity to use it. I think she just prepared it now when all this has happened. The deliberate way she prepared the note for Joshua, then refrained from taking it until she could take care of Vicki, I'm sure she just prepared the poison shortly before this.
Birdie - I'm so glad all came out well for your daughter, but am so sorry to learn of your nephew.
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Birdie, Im so sorry to hear about your nephew. I can't even imagine what you're sister in law and her family are going through. My heart goes out to them. Im glad that your daughter recovered and is doing fine now.
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Midnite.....I was KIDDING! There really IS a limit to the number of posts you can put on a single thread?!! :o
There's no limit to the number of posts that can put in a single thread. Threads can actually go on for pages and pages if you people come up with things to post in them. But as Midnite has said, there's a limit of 10 posts per 24 hours. The actual beginning and end of the period varies depending on the time zone. For instance, in EDT, the period runs from 8p.m to 8p.m. the next day. In CDT, the period runs from 7p.m. to 7p.m. the next day. And so on with the other time periods.
There are a few reasons why this feature is built in to the forum's system, but the most helpful side benefit for Midnite and myself is that it allows the forum to stay a bit more manageable for us at the moment. :)
Believe it or not, the forum averages more than 100 posts a day (there were 136 on April 25th). Midnite basically reads each and every post every day, answers e-mails, IMs and the occasional question directed at her on the forum, and deals with the occasional crisis - both on the forum and behind its scenes. I've given up on trying to keep up with all the posts and have focused on trying to answer the more technical questions that come my way in e-mail, IM and on the forum, while I'm also putting together the daily montages and Robservations captures, and dealing with many behind the scenes things, like twice daily forum backups, managing new member's files, keeping apprised of YaBB modification releases (there are more than 100 mods that I have yet to open to see if I think any of them might be something we might be interested in installing here), and adding my own tweaks to hopefully improve the way the forum's system runs for us.
Now, don't get me wrong, what Midnite and I do here is definitely a labor of love for both of us. And quite honestly, we're very grateful the forum has such enthusiastic members, and we're especially grateful that all of you have made this the most successful forum we've ever worked on. But we no longer have the luxury of VantageNet or eboards4all to run to with our problems. ;) Everything on dsboards is our responsibilty, and I'm not ashamed to admit that sometimes it's a little daunting, which is why we're trying to keep things as manageable as we can until such time as we might find a third (and possibly fourth) person to help us out, mostly with some of the behind the scenes work.
Hmmm...by any chance would any of you know someone who loves DS, has at least a working knowledge of HTML, Java and Perl (more than a working knowledge would be a major plus), is willing to devote themselves to a project simply for the sheer enjoyment it brings them, and most importantly, lives on the East or West coast so they can be handling tasks at times when Midnite and I are respectively dealing with a small matter like our real lives? [wink2] If so, tell them to send phone numbers and resumes to webmaster@dsboards.com, and they too can enter the rewarding field of DSIT (Dark Shadows Internet Technology)! [lghy].
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Okay....that's it....I'm done.
Somebody just slap me.
First we have the tender and intimate moment when Naomi realises that Joshua loves her......
And the NEXT DAY we have Joshua informing Barnabas that he stopped loving Naomi long ago....in fact, he's probably never loved anyone in his whole miserable life.....!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Which, needless to point out, nullify's my entire day-long argument regarding Naomi's state of mind and choice to commit suicide.....though if I'D been married to that cold-blooded, duplicitous louse I'd have killed HIM instead of ME.
Gerard (and anyone else who mentioned it) you got it exactly right when you said Naomi had to die because of the curse, and Joshua wouldn't.
Tell me again that people got paid coin of the realm to write this stuff.
Rainey, who will be retiring to Bedlam >:(
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Wow, what a lot of really interesting comments. I'm tempted to stay out of this one, but restraint has never been my strong suit 8)
I think a strong case can be made that Naomi is suffering from some sort of depression. Admittedly we haven't seen some of the more serious symptoms--she has been able, for instance, to manage to get out of bed, function, etc. She has shown signs of despair, however. She's expressed loss of control, feeling hopelessness. I don't get the sense that this character has felt joy in a very long time. I do get a profound sense that she feels lost and alone.
Her husband can't or won't express emotions. The child she would like to take care of wants to go back to his own home. Millicent's losing it and she's got people like Trask (or did) and Nathan twisting the knife.
But she's lost two children in the space of a short period of time. Seeing your son come back from the dead, has got to mess with your mind on some level. Of course, we can only speculate about this here as it's not like it's ever happened to anyone we know.
The Collins family is never shown to be particularly religious, but I think it's arguable that Naomi would have a fairly conventional set of beliefs and values. When all of that has been turned upside down and back again and then thrown into the equivalent of an Osterizer and set on puree, well, again, that's got to cause damage.
When you're suffering from those kinds of problems (and I haven't even touched on the alcoholism), well, it's sadly plausible to me that Naomi would choose to kill herself.
I don't believe that this is an act of cowardice. Cowardice to me would be her packing up her bags and going to Boston to leave her husband with the mess.
She just can't handle it anymore. The woman was in pain. She feels lost. She's alone. When you're depressed, the slightest thing can make you break down, and here she's been handled more pain in a couple of months than most people get in a life time.
Birdie, I'm so sorry about your nephew ((((hugs))))
Luciaphil
I agree Luciaphil it is depression. Losing a child (Sarah) was a terrible blow but losing a second child and then finding out his fate for just too much for her. Maybe it was impulsive and if she thought it through she might have stayed to help Barnabas but I believe she just couldn't take it at that moment and chose that fate.
maybe she felt He was doomed and wanted to join her children in death. Very sad.
Also Birdie my heart goes out to you and your family.
a hug from me also Take care
jennifer