DARK SHADOWS FORUMS
General Discussions => Current Talk Archive => Current Talk '24 I => Current Talk '06 II => Topic started by: michael c on July 15, 2006, 05:25:30 AM
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i'm sorry.
but i just have to go here...
i don't want to offend any of the numerous quentin fans here(sorry,annie)but i'm currently watching dvd set 22(the 1995 and summer of 1970 eps.).
for the life of me i simply do not understand what quentin is doing at collinwood in the present.
don't get me wrong.i like david selby as quentin as a malevolent ghost during the 1968 episodes.he absolutely carries the 1897 storyline and in a "parallel time" like 1970pt. the writers were free do do what they wanted with this character.
but in "real time" he needed a 'raison d' etre' and i don't think that the writers came up with one other than the fact that quentin had become enormously popular with fans and that david selby likely had a contract.otherwise he is an extremely boring and unecessary character.with barnabas we already have one former villian cast as anti-hero but when quentin goes nice things get a bit top heavy.at least with barnabas he retains an element of unpredictability and dangerousness.
i think the thing that irritated me the most here was that quentin strolls around collinwood with liz like he owns the place and in a lame-o attempt to recapture some of the magic of 1897 quentin resides in his old room gramaphone and all.this dosen't make alot of sense to me...
but by this point the writing was so sloppy i suppose i shouldn't be surprised. ::)
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I thought there was a line or two in there about Liz inviting Quentin to live at Collinwood after the Leviathan catastrophe. He had done a lot for the family at that point, and he WAS a relative. If the dialogue wasn't there, well, it should have been!
I definitely agree with you that the idea of Quentin living in that room in 1970 is beyond bizarre. It almost feels like somebody's idea of an in-joke. Apart from anything else, given what had happened in that room (in the REVISED history of 1897) who on Earth would want to live there? At the very least, the walls should have been stripped and the decor completely changed from the 1890s look. [spoiler]I mean, a corpse was ROTTING in there for decades![/spoiler]
But, that's DS--sometimes any pretense of logic or plausibility just goes right out the window!
G.
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It's a shame what they did -or didn't do - with Quentin post-1897. I agree that they just stuck him in there and developed no plot or reason for it. They didn't even give him anything else substantial to do once they placed him in the present time. He became a lot like the main Collins family and Maggie -there to play the victim and not much else. Maybe they just didn't know how to write for two strong male leads in the long term, and that's why Quentin's character suffered in the present time. He received plenty of screen time but nothing with any real bite. He just meandered around.
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was that gordon russell who took the creative pen and threw it over widows hill on these Quentin eps?
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what they did with quentin here was doubly annoying because while they didn't give him anything interesting to do they also were determined to shove down your throat how important he was.
for instance when barnabas and julia encounter carolyn in 1995 she goes on about quentin in the same breath as she does her mother and her uncle roger and david.but before the storyline switched to 1970pt carolyn had little contact with quentin and he was only around collinwood for a month or two.she certainly didn't have the time to establish a close relationship with him or fill a scrapbook full of pictures of him.
i also think when barnabas and quentin are on screen together they sort of cancel each other out.that they are both such casper milquetoasts during this part of the story(with gerard our villian-du-jour)doesn't help.
with quentin in 1897 they created such a complex,well developed character it's a shame they didn't bring anything interesting to the table with him in the present.
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carolyn in 1995 she goes on about quentin in the same breath as she does her mother and her uncle roger and david.but before the storyline switched to 1970pt carolyn had little contact with quentin and he was only around collinwood for a month or two.she certainly didn't have the time to establish a close relationship with him or fill a scrapbook full of pictures of him.
Well, the audience doesn't completely realize it at the time, but Carolyn had had an additional seven months to become more attached to Quentin between the time Barnabas went into PT and the actual "disaster" took place in 1970 (though we are aware that there was at least an additional four and a half months). Until we see some of their interaction for ourselves, we simply have to assume there was plenty of it that we don't know about.
with quentin in 1897 they created such a complex,well developed character it's a shame they didn't bring anything interesting to the table with him in the present.
The way Quentin is mostly marginalized in the present is pretty much unforgivable. And it's certainly one of my main complaints against the Leviathans period - particularly how there is so little interaction between Quentin and Chris. But I've railed on about that so often already that all too many members could probably recite my words back to me without even having to look up any of those old posts. [b003] So, I'll leave it at that in this post.
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I think one of the reasons why it's so apparent that Quentin is just a hang-around in 1970 is that he had so much coverage in the previous PT storyline. He was basically the "star" of that plot by default - Barnabas, Julia, Liz, Carolyn, et. al., were written out for most of it because they were too busy hanging around Lyndhurst making a movie in real life. So all the attention went to Quentin, Angelique and the "left-overs." When the cameras stopped rolling at Gould's estate and they all came home to Manhattan, starting a new storyline, there was really nothing in it for him other than acting like a doofus who's gone gah-gah over one of Charlie's Angels. At times, when he had screen-time, he was so dang annoying spooning over Daphne and her lilacs that I'm surprised Hallie didn't slap him around.
Gerard
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Gerard, I'm dying here! Just the thought of Hallie slapping Quentin around... oh boy!
*tipping hat in salute*
G.
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I wholeheartedly agree with everything that's been said here. Post 1897 Quentin was a wasted character with wasted oppurtunites of storyline.
And about him living in his old room... how the hell did he get there? He'd either have to go through the secret panel in the drawing room that lead to the West Wing, or traverse half of the deserted and cobweb infested wing itself from the upper hall. Also, from all accounts that part of the house was closed off so they wouldn't have to heat it. It would be FRIGIDLY cold there from late September to late April. And as Gothick mentioned, the smell in there would be none too nice. The idea that he would even reside there is beyond silly. I think he should have been given the cottage after Chris left or one of the other houses on the property.
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i agree that quentin should have been given the caretaker's cottage,or the carriage house,or even a room at the old house.
but i have a theory about why they stuck him in his old room at collinwood.this is of course total speculation on my part but 1897 had been the show's most highly rated storyline.by the time we get to the episodes in question here the ratings had dipped precipitously.so i think that by putting quentin in his old space(including that funky gramaphone)they were trying to revive nostalgia for that era.it was part of the quentin "branding" whether or not it made any sense.
but it is really lame that he's there.
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just a few more things then i'll stop...
there seems to be a distinct bit of revisionist history going on during the summer of 1970.in order to increase the perception that quentin was just this dyed-in-the-wool-been-around-forever character they commit a few glaring continuity gaffes.
during the picnic episodes quentin tells david that he has been asking to use his camera "for a year".a year earlier we were still squarely in the 1897 storyline and if anything david was terrifed of quentin and hardly likely to ask to borrow his camera.sloppy!
quentin also asks the ghost of daphne why she chose now to come to him when he had been at collinwood "all these many years".in fact he hadn't been at collinwood for nearly a century.sloppy!
also,since roger is absent from this part of the storyline("in europe")quentin sort of assumes his usual role.a suited-up,brandy-swilling sceptic squabbling with liz.
they really didn't have to do this here.
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Hmmm. Well, maybe when Barnabas and Julia time-warped, even though when they got back everyone SAID it was 1970, it was really... 1975???
What really bugs me, Mscbryk, about the sloppy continuity in this part of the show, is all the hints and clues they gave during the Summer of 1970 about the Java Queen, Gerard's pirate crew, Gerard and Daphne's shipboard romance, Tad and Hallie's closeness to Gerard and Daphne, etc. etc. and then in 1840, NONE of this shows up! at all!
Of course the same thing happens in the run-up to the 1795 storyline. Nearly everything we're told about the histories of Barnabas, Jeremiah, and Josette ca. 1837 is disregarded when Vicki arrives in 1795. Somehow, though, the 1970 continuity gaffe just seems WAY more outrageous to this viewer.
A New England curmudgeon,
G.
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i agree that quentin should have been given the caretaker's cottage,or the carriage house,or even a room at the old house...it is really lame that he's there (in the west wing)
I've just watched the first few eps of the summer of 1970 and not only is it ridiculous that Quentin is in his old room, but the damn thing looks like the Maid Brigade showed up to CLEAN it! Surely Mrs. Johnson and Harry didn't pull THAT off! It looks as pristine as it did in 1897! AND the room is [spoiler]intact! No sign that it had been sectioned off to hide the remains of the rotting corpse of Gregory Trask![/spoiler]Hello??!! Too ridiculous, even for DS!
I agree w/everyone that he should have been given either a different room at Collinwood, or at the Old House since he knew about Barnabas anyway, or [spoiler]Chris's cottage since he's now gone from the show/Collinsport. And what's up w/that? Do they SAY he's gone and why? I'm only at the beginning at 1970 so I haven't seen yet. But suddenly Hallie is there and Amy is gone.[/spoiler]And can I just say that y'all were right! Hallie is annoying as hell! Only 3 or 4 eps in and I hate her already!
Thoughts on 1995: I really liked the plotline but feel an opportunity was lost. In the scene where [spoiler]Julia, under Gerard's power, tells Barnabas to go back to 1970 w/out her because she'll only betray him again, and he says, "Not w/out you. NEVER w/out you!", that was the perfect opportunity to hook those two up! He could have even kissed her. I mean, his thing w/Roxanne was about as ridiculous as Quentin's thing w/Amanda Harris! Where's the chemistry folks? ::) But anyway, I generally like 1970 PT but not the characters. The only character's I liked were: Alexis (the REAL one), Cyrus, Buffie and Liz. Everyone else annoyed the hell out of me, although Roger was funny![/spoiler]
So far I'm liking 1970 and the groovy Sebastian Shaw! Those leather pants??!! Ho mama-sita! :P HOTTTT! But anyway, I can't wait to get to the end of it so that I can officially say I've seen every ep of DS! ;)
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gothick,
it's good to know that none of the mysteries being set up here get solved during the 1840 storyline because i have absolutely no intention of watching it.the 'summer of 1970' is my d.s. swan song.
buzz,
it's a blink-and-you'll-miss-it moment but quentin does tell barnabas and julia that chris,amy and sabrina have left collinsport.a stunning lack of any sort of a conclusion to a storyline that they allowed to languish for way too long.
they should have found some way for barnabas to reverse the curse in 1897 because once the show returned to the present and the leviathan storyline started it was obvious that this was not a priority anymore.
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Hmmm. Well, maybe when Barnabas and Julia time-warped, even though when they got back everyone SAID it was 1970, it was really... 1975???
What really bugs me, Mscbryk, about the sloppy continuity in this part of the show, is all the hints and clues they gave during the Summer of 1970 about the Java Queen, Gerard's pirate crew, Gerard and Daphne's shipboard romance, Tad and Hallie's closeness to Gerard and Daphne, etc. etc. and then in 1840, NONE of this shows up! at all!
Of course the same thing happens in the run-up to the 1795 storyline. Nearly everything we're told about the histories of Barnabas, Jeremiah, and Josette ca. 1837 is disregarded when Vicki arrives in 1795. Somehow, though, the 1970 continuity gaffe just seems WAY more outrageous to this viewer.
::laughing:: I think they set a bunch of stuff up for EVERY time travel storyline that never came to pass and was ignored completely, or totally rewritten!
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buzz,
it's a blink-and-you'll-miss-it moment but quentin [spoiler]does tell barnabas and julia that chris,amy and sabrina have left collinsport.a stunning lack of any sort of a conclusion to a storyline that they allowed to languish for way too long. they should have found some way for barnabas to reverse the curse in 1897[/spoiler]
I agree that this plot point should have been resolved. But, unfortunately, DS was famous for not concluding plotlines. Case in point, [spoiler]Who are Vicki's parents? It becomes obvious from that plotline that Betty Hanscombe, not Elizabeth, was Vickie's mother. But once Barnabas is introduced that plotline, and the portrait of Betty, disappear! The portrait, which Sam Evans had given to Vickie and she'd taken to her room in Collinwood, actually finds it's way back to the Evans cottage during the Adam/Eve plotline. Nicholas goes there to for the pretense of buying a painting, and there it is among the ones for sale. Hello???[/spoiler]
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Hi Mscbryk,
I certainly respect your decision not to watch the final months of the series--I've done that with other shows--I only watched about half of the final season of Babylon 5 (although I did finally view my tape of that last episode, mainly because it was originally filmed as the finale of Season 4), and the same with Beastmaster--both shows in which I found my interest failing due to poor writing and poor production strategies.
Despite some spectacularly awful plot decisions, there are some gems in 1840 and PT 1841. I think the most notable to me are Virginia Vestoff's performance as Samantha which really is some of the best acting in the entire series, and some of Grayson's scenes as PT Aunt Julia Collins (originally a widow, she then became a spinster, poor dear--no wonder she often seemed tetchy!). I also ADORE Joan's early scenes as Flora, the pixilated romantic novelist. Hysterical! Unfortunately somebody or other decided they needed to tone the character WAY down and she soon became yet another version of Joan's iron matriarch character--still fun, but not all that noteworthy.
cheers, Gothick
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PT Aunt Julia Collins (originally a widow, she then became a spinster
I did not know this! Interesting! ;)
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Another stellar element of the 1840 storyline is Chris Pennock's work as Gabriel Collins. By far Pennock's most nuanced, emotionally plausible characterization on the series, I think.
I also enjoy John Karlen's work as Kendrick Young in PT 1841 because it is so unlike anything else he did on the series. He gets to play the young romantic hero--more in the vein of Jane Austen than Bronte (that's Frid as Bramwell--even his name is Brontean), I think. His courting scenes with Nancy Barrett are adorable, and of course I love watching him cross swords with Grayson's acid-tongued Aunt Julia.
G.
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Another stellar element of the 1840 storyline is Chris Pennock's work as Gabriel Collins. By far Pennock's most nuanced, emotionally plausible characterization on the series, I think.
Couldn't agree more. Now that I've seen all (well, almost all, still hacking away at Summer 1970 and his Sebastian Shaw) of Pennock's character's, I have to say he was VERY versatile! Even played three different Gabriels (1840, 1841 PT and NODS) and each one seemed like a different character! (well, maybe because they were, duh! ::)) I liked his Cyrus the best though, just loved Cyrus. I could fall for a guy like that. ;)
I also enjoy John Karlen's work as Kendrick Young in PT 1841 because it is so unlike anything else he did on the series. He gets to play the young romantic hero--more in the vein of Jane Austen than Bronte (that's Frid as Bramwell--even his name is Brontean), I think. His courting scenes with Nancy Barrett are adorable, and of course I love watching him cross swords with Grayson's acid-tongued Aunt Julia.
Again, agree 100%. Loved Johnny in every role he played on DS but I have a soft spot for Kendrick because, as you say, he got to finally play a romantic hero. Nice to see the John's play romantic heros at the end of the show's run. Frid's Bramwell was just spot on too, even though sometimes, I'll admit, he acts like a deushbag! But hey, he was emotionally abused as a boy so who can blame him? ;D
BTW, Bronte's brother was named Branwell, ALMOST Bramwell. ;)
Also BTW, my favorite line in Wuthering Heights is after Kathy dies and Heathcliff is beside himself. His wife, Earnshaw's (Kathy's husband) sister, says to him, sarcastically, "Heathcliff, why don't you go lie on Kathy's grave like a faithful dog?!" I roared laughing when I read that. Sounds like something you'd expect Angelique to say isn't it? "Barnabas, why don't you go lie on Josette's grave like a faithful dog?!" >:D
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doesn't Liz say to quentin that that wing is closed and
he says he doesn't care he''ll take care of it
also by this time old gregory is just a pile of bones the room would smell
musty and old(sort of like my house at the moment where is MrsJohnson or Hazel when you need her)
but i do agree that they just didn't know what to do with Q and it was a big let down after
1897 Q
jennifer
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The skeleton
[spoiler]was buried by David & Amy prior to 1897 when it was thought to be (or may have been at that point) Quentin's, but in the altered timeline they may never have found the secret room. In the altered present, I wonder what Liz and Rogers reaction to seeing the skeleton was when the room was being prepared for Quentin, especially with it wearing a ministers uniform. Quentin must have had a big smile on his face when he realized what he suspected Judith did was true! DS cheated the viewers on a lot of good scenes like this.[/spoiler]
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The skeleton
[spoiler]was buried by David & Amy prior to 1897 when it was thought to be (or may have been at that point) Quentin's, but in the altered timeline they may never have found the secret room. In the altered present, I wonder what Liz and Rogers reaction to seeing the skeleton was when the room was being prepared for Quentin, especially with it wearing a ministers uniform. Quentin must have had a big smile on his face when he realized what he suspected Judith did was true! DS cheated the viewers on a lot of good scenes like this.[/spoiler]
I agree wholeheartedly Joeytrom! One of the reasons I love fan fiction! It fills in all those annoying 'gaps'! ;D
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you are right Joey i never thought of Quentin's reaction
and that he would know who it was! ;)
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The present day Quentin was sadly wasted during the Leviathan storyline (the one exception was the amnesia/Amanda/Mr. Best nonsense). But he sure did have a lot more to do during the PT storyline and back in RT where....[spoiler]he wounded up becoming infatuated with the ghost of Daphne, trying to help her, though it was against his better judgement and against what was best for the children.[/spoiler]
And though it was a different Quentin altogether during 1840 he had some really juicy scenes, especially with Daphne, Gerard, Samantha, Barnabas and Desmond.
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Quentin may have been "wasted" in terms of his plotlines and relevance as a character in 1970, but, at the time, his presence as a draw on the show was not wasted. Though the ratings may have faltered at this time, the audience base of younger folk were still interested in Quentin, and we were inundated with articles and pics of Selby in many youth-oriented mags of that time. From my own perspective, if Quentin as a character had not been at least present on the show during 1970 (and all the machinations around the filming of HODS), the ratings may well have taken a more dramatic nosedive during that time. For sheer marketing, it was important to find any excuse to have Selby show up as Quentin after 1897. I agree, however, that the lack of care in handling/developing the character in 1970 was a shame. [santa_undecided] Loved Selby's turn as a crazed Quentin in 1995, though. [santa_thumb]
Petofi
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well put petofi.
when i first saw quentin(and that gramaphone)in his old room in the present i thought that this was not so much storytelling as it was marketing.that room(and that gramaphone)were part of the quentin "brand" much like barnabas and his inverness cape.they were used whether or not it made sense.
of course "we" overanalyze every aspect of the show but the pre-teen audience the show was courting at the time probably didn't question quentin's presence there.
i haven't seen the 1840 storyline but i gather quentin regains some of his relevence.
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Personally, I feel that David Selby should have played a different character in 'present' time. Quentin belongs in 1897, his story is there (I actually would have loved it if he and MAGDA had ended up together, but oh well). Selby could have played Philip Todd, Sky Rumson, or even Grant Douglas as just Grant Douglas. The show should have learned from Barnabas that you don't put all your energy on one character and hope that they carry the show. A soap opera is an ENSEMBLE cast, not a one-man show. Selby (and yes, even FRID) should have had the chance to play 3 or 4 characters like everyone else, not just a great-uncle with the same name or a parallel counterpart. David Selby had more than enough star quality to be any character he wanted to be on Dark Shadows, not just another Quentin.
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Personally, I feel that David Selby should have played a different character in 'present' time. Quentin belongs in 1897, his story is there (I actually would have loved it if he and MAGDA had ended up together, but oh well). Selby could have played Philip Todd, Sky Rumson, or even Grant Douglas as just Grant Douglas. The show should have learned from Barnabas that you don't put all your energy on one character and hope that they carry the show. A soap opera is an ENSEMBLE cast, not a one-man show. Selby (and yes, even FRID) should have had the chance to play 3 or 4 characters like everyone else, not just a great-uncle with the same name or a parallel counterpart. David Selby had more than enough star quality to be any character he wanted to be on Dark Shadows, not just another Quentin.
Have to say you make a lot of sense there. I think instead of an 1840 version of Quentin, they should have given Selby the same version of the character but with a different name. Same with the 1970 PT version of him. It does get kind of confusing sorting out all the different Quentins he wounded up playing.
In Jonathan's case though, at least he did get at least ONE chance to play a character other than Barnabas, that of his 1841 parallel time son Bramwell Collins. David NEVER got the chance to play anyone other than a Quentin. [santa_tongue]
But you know, not just Dark Shadows, but a lot of shows tend to focus on the popularity of one character at the expense of others. Many believe Dallas wouldn't have been Dallas without J.R., Dynasty without Alexis, Cheers without Sam Malone,
M.A.S.H. without Hawkeye. I like all those shows but not solely because of their "big-guns"....I enjoyed the whole casts as a whole....you are quite right, not just one person or character makes a show, it takes the rest of a brilliant, experienced cast to make a show.
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In the case of shows, movies, even books....there's almost always going to be that one character - even in an ensemble cast - that is the star. The one that carries the majority of the weight of the show, if not all of it. For Dark Shadows it was Barnabas Collins. To use another example, for Pirates of the Caribbean it's Jack Sparrow. That's not to put down any other members of the cast/characters. There are many great characters in them, and in the case of movies and television shows there can be great actors. But there is that one character that usually defines and dominates the show, sometimes intentionally, other times unintentionally.
The best use of an ensemble cast to me was by Joss Whedon in the early seasons of Buffy the Vampire Slayer. While Buffy is obviously the central character and the focus remains around her, each character had their own distinctive personality and story arc in Buffy's world. Dark Shadows rarely came close to that, but that takes very strong writing, drama and development for characters and DS, IMO, stopped focusing on that after a while. And it's not because Barnabas was the main character. It's because they tried to cram everything but the kitchen sink into the storylines.
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I'd have to agree that most soaps require an ensamble cast to carry it, not just a couple of characters. And the DS writers should have been smart enough to know not to focus the story on one character just because the audience loves them. I think one of the best things that they did in 1897 was [spoiler]having Barnabas disappear for quite some time after the family found out that he was a vampire.[/spoiler]
That worked very well because it got the focus off of Barnabas and his journey to 1897, and allowed the story to be more focused on 1897 and what was happening there. Plus they didn't have the pesky task of trying to work Barnabas in around his various conditions and obstacles.
What I'm getting at here is the fact that if you make a character absent for a while, people want to see them more. Barnabas was gone for quite some time, and while it may not have been that long at all, it seemed like a lifetime. I found myself wondering "Where's Barnabas and what's happened to him?" even though I've seen the episodes before. I didn't quite remember everything, which helped as well.
I think a good example of a show that requires a large, strong ensamble cast is ER. Not one cast member that was in the Pilot or the first season (to my knowledge) is still a regular cast member on the show. And while Noah Wyle's "Dr. John Carter" is slated to appear in at least four episodes each season (though he won't be appearing at all this year because of other storylines going on), he is not a regular, and is not in every episode like he was for so long. Despite the fact that no original docs are still there, the show continues to pull strong ratings, even though the ratings may not be as high as they once were. And personally, I think the show better this year than it's been in a good long while, and all of that is thanks to a great ensamble cast and better writing.
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I agree with what's been said here about Quentin in the present, but have one more thing to add. It was so sad what they did to Quentin in the summer of '70 storyline, when they had this man who had at one time been quite the ladies' man fall for a ghost of all things. I liked Quentin and Daphne in the 1840 storyline, which is of course another Quentin but this was 1897 Quentin who had started well with Beth and later betrayed her for Angelique (he was forced into that) but later falling for that insipid nit Amanda Harris. Not his finest moment! Now he is reduced to mooning over some ghost. How could this be the same man? I just don't get it.
They certainly needed to do more with his character in the present. I don't know if it's ever said on the show, or maybe it was just in some fan fic I read, but was he ever given a position at the company? If not, why not? He was invited to stay at Collinwood (I agree with those who feel he should have been given the cottage after Chris moved out, it would have such fond memories for him, he was killed there twice and had lots of trysts there!) but he needed something to do other than drink and think about the past. A position in the company would have filled the bill and given all the secretaries at the cannery someone to dream about when they pillowed their heads at night.
Alondra